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  1. #21

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Thanks Dan.
    I build a lot of my own tools, its kind of who I am.

    My thought process: (enter at own risk)
    Buy new --- Too much money, too much training, I doubt it would pay for it self unless I open a full blown cabinet shop.

    Buy new import machine --- I got a quote from Omni for 15k+, who knows what kind of quality will show up? Machine support questionable if existent at all.

    Buy used machine --- All I read about buying unknown/old machines are horror stories about encoder diagrams that don't exist unless you talk to some guy named Jack in Hoboken. Or bypass Jack and reply to a thread from 2007 with a similar issue. I have been pretty close on a few machines but the thought of a huge boat anchor sitting in my garage has put the fear of God in me.

    Build --- I have a lot more tools than most I see building their own machines, and I need a long term project (hobby). Also the big one, technical support. I registered almost 4 years ago for this forum and I have truly been amazed at the support and encouragement around the DIY machines.

    How I do it now --- All the sheet goods are broken down on a table saw, dado'ed on the table saw, and drilled on a Blum Mini Press. I purchase drawer boxes, doors, and drawer fronts from Decore and they ship them to me. As of 2019 in Charlotte cabinets (painted) are running about $400LF for full overlay and $600LF for inset. When I build a spec house and provide the cabinets my material cost is around $160LF for inset(I mostly build inset). That's for all domestic pre-finished plywood, maple fronts, Blum hardware. An average house for me is about 120LF and takes me one month working nights and weekends to complete.

    Now, I could totally hire someone to build these cabinets for sure, but there is a lot of sawdust in my veins. My father, and his father were both professional woodworkers. I spent about 15 years in the trade before getting my GC license and started building and remodeling houses. One thing I have learned is building big things pays way better, but cabinet making is something I actually enjoy. I am always looking to improve my product and increase efficiency. The new machine will satisfy that as well.

    This could likely end in disaster, but I'm going to take it slow and work hard to keep everything straight level and plumb. In the end, I'm making cabinets.....



  2. #22
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    @JakeInCharlotte, learning Fuson 360 may not be fun, but it is an investment you most likely won't regret.



  3. #23
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Have you added up ALL the costs to build a CNC router? The steel, the grinding, the control system and the hardware. Have you built a CNC machine before? IF it was truly cheaper then there would be dozens of CNC router companies going out of business. Commercial machines new or used have a resale value, its not just buying one and then hauling it to the dump when your done with it!

    There are lots of US built machines, name brand machines new and used on the market. The Camaster and Shopbot forums have buy and sell sections.

    The Zone also has Forums for most of the good ones, check them out before you buy. If your spare time is making money on the side, then buy a machine and do it. You do not need .001 accuracy over 12 feet to make wood cabinets!!

    Oh you just want the fun of building, then go for it.

    1000x750 Workbee CNC - Mach4 - PMDX USB - Windows 10 Pro


  4. #24

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Oh you just want the fun of building, then go for it.
    It's about the journey and learning new things for me. But, you can call me Sisyphus.

    I have a general idea of the budget after years of research. The drive system is the biggest part I don't know about. Servos with gear reduction sound great, but I have zero clue(right now) how to size them. It's kind of why I started this thread asking which part to start designing around. To me, it seems like the design is all about weight. Moving the weight, making sure the weight doesn't de-form the frame, and moving the weight around just enough to maximize the material. Once I figure out the weight, I will have a better estimate on the drives.

    That brings me to this question, the steel yard called and the 10" x 14' x 3/8" will cost and extra $975 over using 5/16". Should I stick with the 3/8" or will the 5/16" be ok? Part of the problem is the 3/8" only comes in 48' vs the 5/16" which is 40'. I would have a drop of (+/-) 6' vs 12' of 3/8" leftover. I'm sticking with 3/8" on the gantry beam.



  5. #25
    Member Ntl's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    How much is that tubing like $75 a foot?



  6. #26

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    14 x 10 x 3/8 = 58lbs. per LF @ $62 per LF

    14 x 10 x 5/16 = 49lbs. per LF @ $43 per LF



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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Jake, I do not have any idea of what to use for your frame. I will not BS you like some folks on here. When I built my 3 point backhoe as a beginning retirement project two issues became apparent. First how to handle the heavy steel and that was solved by using my over head rail and hoist. The other was building on the garage floor. The concrete was not poured or finished to +/- .005 inch as I am sure yours is. So I needed to do a lot of leveling and propping and shimming when I was welding. I have converted old milling machines to CNC and done enough to know I did Not want to build a control system. Even as I am a pretty qualified electrician who has been doing industrial and control work most of my life. I just wanted something to work and no messing around. I make money on the side and I decided I would rather do that, then build. Money is not a big deal and If I want something , I just buy it.

    Last edited by wmgeorge; 04-04-2019 at 08:19 PM.
    1000x750 Workbee CNC - Mach4 - PMDX USB - Windows 10 Pro


  8. #28
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeInCharlotte View Post
    14 x 10 x 3/8 = 58lbs. per LF @ $62 per LF

    14 x 10 x 5/16 = 49lbs. per LF @ $43 per LF
    That's what I figured that stuff is expensive. Have you looked at possibly using more of a off the shelf tubing and using steel plate to enclose it? Might save you some money and you can have it come from the mill cut to size. Just a option if you're still finalizing the design. That way the tubing for the frame will be easier to handle and cut to size.

    Dan



  9. #29
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    The drive system is the biggest part I don't know about. Servos with gear reduction sound great, but I have zero clue(right now) how to size them.
    Most servo manufacturers have sizing programs. But you need to know how fast you want to move, and how fast you want to accelerate.

    If you are building that big and heavy, you'll probably be in the 1.5-2Kw range.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  10. #30
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Hi Jake - I think your overcooking the frame for cabinetry work. With your cabinetry background I'd build a timber machine as your starter or at least a timber bench. I'd use linear bearings however not the extrusions and wheels on lots of these. Peter

    https://www.buildyourcnc.com/CNCMachineKits.aspx



  11. #31
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    BuildyourCNC is the worst machine you could build.

    If you want to cut cabinets fast, and accurate, you do indeed want a machine like that.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  12. #32
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    I think that's debatable. If you want a heavy bench bolt it to the earth then it weighs what the earth weighs. Is that heavy enough? It's a matter of having enough stiffness in the right spots irrespective of weight. Unfortunately this is not an easy task to do so most people just chuck large heavy chunks of steel at it and it's done. I'm in the lightweight arena and that's it, so the answer lies somewhere in the middle. I put up alternatives, I'm in here looking for ideas and opportunities. To me there's no opportunity in the heavy is best camp.

    Jakes utility description doesn't sound like he needs a high production machine churning out kitchens every two shifts 50 weeks a year. But I think Jake will build what he builds and do a good job. I think people start this thing because they think they can build it cheaper than the production guys can. That's what I did... Turns out you can and you can't. If you need a machine to do a job you can usually find a second hand one to get you going. Quicker and cheaper in the long run verses developing your own machine even if you have to sort a few things. If your in business and have the need, lease one you'll be streets ahead. If you develop your own machine you have to sort a lot of things... I also have the Australian perspective and it seems a lot of things are very much cheaper in the USA than over here. That may change the build economics somewhat. It's a long journey Jake , enjoy the build and the forum, I am.

    PS will a $20k USD shopbot get the job done? Its bench is less substantial then Jakes design but I'm sure it will make his cabinets??? So can you build this shopbot for $10k in your basement?? Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Part To Start ?-shopbot-jpg  
    Last edited by peteeng; 04-05-2019 at 12:08 AM.


  13. #33
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Anything will "do the job". The question is what does he want?

    I know of many former shopbot users who switched to Camaster and found the switch to be a huge improvement.

    Something with a frame comparable to what Jake is showing would get into the $80K-$100K range, depending on options.

    When you get into big, heavy machines, everything is much more expensive. Motors, drives, motion components, will all cost much more than what you'd find on a Shopbot.

    Yes, you can build one yourself for much cheaper, but it will take a considerable amount of time. And the bigger, stronger, and faster the machine will be, the longer it will take to build.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  14. #34
    Member ger21's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Fusion is a lot of fun. NOT!!! I have spent last few nights studying how the big manufacture's build their machines looking for inspiration. I really like the Onsrud machine base for its simplicity. Their designs seem to have changed from side mount linear slides to top mount. They also are building a triangle foot base now instead of the standard rectangle tube they used before. The triangle seems like a lot more welding to me so I will stick with the rectangle. I am shooting for a 34" table to to floor design with 10" of gantry clearance.

    It's by no means done, but I thought I would post it now and get some feedback.

    Do you plan on getting this stress relieved and machined after welding? I think that would be critical to getting the most out of this frame.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  15. #35
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Or he could do what Gary Campbell does (at times) buy a decent Chinese machine with a good heavy frame and then tear out the control system and anything else he deems not worthy and rebuild it with either a WinCNC or Acorn control system and do whatever is needed to make the machine right. If thats to difficult or you don't know how, then you have no business trying to build your own.

    1000x750 Workbee CNC - Mach4 - PMDX USB - Windows 10 Pro


  16. #36

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    It's a matter of having enough stiffness in the right spots irrespective of weight. Unfortunately this is not an easy task to do so most people just chuck large heavy chunks of steel at it and it's done. I'm in the lightweight arena and that's it, so the answer lies somewhere in the middle. I put up alternatives, I'm in here looking for ideas and opportunities. To me there's no opportunity in the heavy is best camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Have you looked at possibly using more of a off the shelf tubing and using steel plate to enclose it?
    My frame design has changed as I have dug in deeper. The one I posted earlier seem great to me, but I saw a lot of welding. To me that equals heat, shrinkage, and distortion. I started searching pictures of high end machines and found their bases to be a simpler design using big rectangle tube. The big tube will require less welding for sure. The part that got me was the fact that the table heights are around 34" from the floor to spoil board, and that needs tall tube. I'm sure I could build something out of smaller material, but Im not looking to reinvent the wheel. I have been buying steel from Howard Steel in Charlotte for years and I find their prices to be pretty competitive. They seem to charge based on weight, well sort of. The frame will be close to 3000lbs as designed.


    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Do you plan on getting this stress relieved and machined after welding?
    Yes and yes. Not sure where at the current time. I'm following the table flatness thread and bookmarked Precision Grinding Inc. in Alabama. They are only 6 hours away from me. Otherwise I plan to use the cedar shim scraps my trim guys leave everywhere.


    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    buy a decent Chinese machine with a good heavy frame and then tear out the control system.
    Thought about it. I even tried to buy just a frame. I just could not find anyone interested in a frame only sale.

    Im looking at the Acorn system for sure. I like the fact it is from a company that builds bigger systems. Has Centroid always been a supporter of open source DIY systems? If so, I think it's pretty cool.



  17. #37
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi Jake - I think your overcooking the frame for cabinetry work. With your cabinetry background I'd build a timber machine as your starter or at least a timber bench. I'd use linear bearings however not the extrusions and wheels on lots of these. Peter

    https://www.buildyourcnc.com/CNCMachineKits.aspx
    Your link is not for anyone that is serious about building a machine for business

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeInCharlotte View Post
    My frame design has changed as I have dug in deeper. The one I posted earlier seem great to me, but I saw a lot of welding. To me that equals heat, shrinkage, and distortion. I started searching pictures of high end machines and found their bases to be a simpler design using big rectangle tube. The big tube will require less welding for sure. The part that got me was the fact that the table heights are around 34" from the floor to spoil board, and that needs tall tube. I'm sure I could build something out of smaller material, but Im not looking to reinvent the wheel. I have been buying steel from Howard Steel in Charlotte for years and I find their prices to be pretty competitive. They seem to charge based on weight, well sort of. The frame will be close to 3000lbs as designed.




    Yes and yes. Not sure where at the current time. I'm following the table flatness thread and bookmarked Precision Grinding Inc. in Alabama. They are only 6 hours away from me. Otherwise I plan to use the cedar shim scraps my trim guys leave everywhere.




    Thought about it. I even tried to buy just a frame. I just could not find anyone interested in a frame only sale.

    Im looking at the Acorn system for sure. I like the fact it is from a company that builds bigger systems. Has Centroid always been a supporter of open source DIY systems? If so, I think it's pretty cool.
    Gary Campbell is a Pro and does this for a living, located in NW Michigan. He can sell you one perhaps he has already done. I would trust his judgement 100%, but please do not ask for "free" help. https://www.camheads.org/showthread.php?t=7830

    1000x750 Workbee CNC - Mach4 - PMDX USB - Windows 10 Pro


  19. #39
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeInCharlotte View Post
    14 x 10 x 3/8 = 58lbs. per LF @ $62 per LF

    14 x 10 x 5/16 = 49lbs. per LF @ $43 per LF
    Here is a machine that was built by a friend, it is quite well documented here on the Zone, he had his frame made in China to his Design they also machined it, let be know if you do want to out source the basic build

    He spent a lot of money to do this build, but it payed for it's self in a very short while, He used the best of everything Drives Motors Etc it has rapid speeds up to 2500 IPM

    Note the concrete feet, these where required to keep the machine from moving around under acceleration , it is 12' x 6'

    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-w...ediculous.html

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Part To Start ?-router-build-jpg  
    Mactec54


  20. #40
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Have you thought of looking on ebay for an older machine to retrofit a modern controller to?Even if you have to replace some worn components,the prices are often startlingly low and you have the basis of a machine that can be customised to your requirements.I find the discussions on this board about massive frames for people engaged in hobby activities tend to lead to massive and overbuilt frames,with correspondingly massive costs of materials in pursuit of levels of accuracy that would be in order for components in chronometers.If your ambition extends to making a dozen kitchen cabinets a month,what is a realistic amount of deviation from utter perfection?A solid table is a necessity and the legs are there to keep it off the floor,adjustable feet are a help if the workshop has a slightly bumpy floor.



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