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Thread: What Part To Start ?

  1. #13
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Maybe to hold the middle of the plate down to the tube, rather than just around the perimeter?

    Gerry

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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  2. #14
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeInCharlotte View Post
    I have single phase 200 amp service at the house where I will be building the machine. I figured I would use a VFD or rotary for now. I'm trying to find a piece of property in Charlotte right now to move my equipment to since I have outgrown the basement. Hopefully I can get 3 phase there.

    The plate for the slides and rack and pinion make sense. What about these welds?

    What Part To Start ?-frame-jpg
    If you have a big plate like that and only stich welded on the edges you want to plug weld through the plate as is shown in the photo, and grind it off before machining

    Another way they do it also is short lengths of plate and weld each plate, and fill the gap and grind it ready for machining

    The Tubing wall thickness is 3/8" and 1/2" or metric 10mm and 12mm

    Mactec54


  3. #15
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Some companies moments below.

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeInCharlotte View Post
    Thanks guys for the input.
    Would Fusion 360 work for modeling the machine? It seems to be all the rage these days on YouTube.
    Realize that part of that YouTube popularity is aggressive marketing by Autodesk. That may or may not be a bad idea but you need to consider carefully. I’ve only played with Fusion a few times and frankly the good (it is actually very good) don’t outweigh the bad. To put it simply I don’t have 24/7 access to the internet.

    As far as more mundane concerns, learning a CAD program while designing a machine will slow you down. If you are in a hurry to get the machine built that may be a problem. On the other hand learning the software may keep you out of trouble if you can catch errors early. I still find it faster to do a rough sketch on paper Or even cardboard before working the details.
    My thinking originally was to size everything to handle a 25 pound spindle. I have pretty much settled on using 6” square and rectangular tube, 1/4” wall for everything.
    That will get extremely heavy and frankly would have a hard time leaving a basement. For example I recently built(actually retasked a machine frame) in 2” square tube for a work bench and that frame got to be very heavy. Got heavier every time I welded something on to it. That was a bench frame even before the top was put on it.

    I’m not trying to knock a good well designed and stiff frame. Rather just pointing out that simply handling such a frame is a major task. If you have the equipment great, even better is having a local machine shop and heat treat shop to help with the build process.

    One important thing to realize is that after you properly size the tube wall thickness for strength (structural) you need to consider screw holding properties for anything that might get bolted to the tube. 1/4” would be a bit thin for linear rails mounting screws especially if machined for flatness. This is why you see a lot of steel tubing frames have pads welded on so that threads can be ran into them.
    Then weld 3/8” x 1-1/2” strips to it for rail mounts. It’s getting heavy.
    Heavy is right! Heavy = expensive! I’d make sure such a frame really makes sense for your needs. Also transportation of such a large frame is troublesome. I’d almost certainly put the off the build phase until a decent shop is found.
    Also, I don’t want to waste materials building a table that is ozersized for cabinet sheet material.
    Well that might be the case here. I’d prefer smaller cross section tubing for most of the frame. On the other hand a big tube on the gantry is justified,I might even suggest 8” square there. You can accomplish a lot with 3 & 4” square tube.



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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Thanks everyone!!
    My plan is to build it in my garage upside down and then flip the base over. I have a bobcat and can rent a forklift if necessary to flip it over. I thought 1/4" was solid, but I see your point on heavier is better. How about 3/8" wall 6" x 8" for the top sides and 1/4" on the rest of the base base?

    I'm itching to start welding for sure, but I have lurked long enough to know when Gerry says you need a plan, you need a plan. The Fusion tutorial book showed up today!



  5. #17
    Activation process peteeng's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Hi Jake - You are going down a well worn path. People jump in and build a bench then start plugging things in and run out of room and do not achieve their required size. It's really tempting and fun to build the bench, benches are easy to make, machines in total are not. But about 1 year after that and your still not got a machine working and it turns out it can't cut the size you want its really disappointing. I suggest you a) look at the kits that exist and if you can buy one then do it. You will be cutting material much earlier than developing a machine yourself b) look at existent machines very carefully of the size you want and compare the footprint to actual cutting size it will surprise you how much bigger the footprint is to actual cutting size c) Do not build anything until you have it sorted it on CAD. There are many knock on effects of changing various things and it's much easier to sort this on CAD vs in reality. d) read some of the build threads right through. It takes over a year (perhaps 2) to build a machine in your "spare" time. If you want to make sawdust on a timeline buy a kit or search for second hand!! In one of my threads I'm designing a machine from scratch from the spindle back vs from the bench up. It's already bigger than expected and I'm not at the bench yet.

    Also since you are a cabinet maker? and obviously have timber tools consider a plywood machine and bench. These are very successful for a cabinet making task and you can then make you next metal machine on that, if you need to....the secret with timber machines is to seal them very well to stop moisture ingress/egress Cheers Peter



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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeInCharlotte View Post
    Thanks everyone!!
    My plan is to build it in my garage upside down and then flip the base over. I have a bobcat and can rent a forklift if necessary to flip it over. I thought 1/4" was solid, but I see your point on heavier is better. How about 3/8" wall 6" x 8" for the top sides and 1/4" on the rest of the base base?

    I'm itching to start welding for sure, but I have lurked long enough to know when Gerry says you need a plan, you need a plan. The Fusion tutorial book showed up today!
    That will work fine for material, yes it is always good to do a drawing even if it is just a sketch to start with and more detailed once you get into it

    Make sure you have everything level when you start putting that big frame together especially the top, you don't want any twist in it either once those big tubes are together they don't move very much so you only get one chance to get it right

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Fusion is a lot of fun. NOT!!! I have spent last few nights studying how the big manufacture's build their machines looking for inspiration. I really like the Onsrud machine base for its simplicity. Their designs seem to have changed from side mount linear slides to top mount. They also are building a triangle foot base now instead of the standard rectangle tube they used before. The triangle seems like a lot more welding to me so I will stick with the rectangle. I am shooting for a 34" table to to floor design with 10" of gantry clearance.

    It's by no means done, but I thought I would post it now and get some feedback.


    What Part To Start ?-table-design-jpg

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Part To Start ?-table-design-jpg  


  8. #20
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    That's one heavy machine lots of special order steel $$$$$ . I'm curious when it's done where the cost comes in vs buying one? The small machine I bought when I did a cost of the material it didn't make sense to build one vs buy one. Even then it came in a lot higher than I thought it would.

    I guess if you have really good pricing from your supplier or already have the material just laying around from a old job then you could save some dough. Are you building vs buying just for the experience, or do you think you will save money?

    I just always wanted to ask someone that built a industrial router if they did it just because they could. Or if they did it because they thought it would be cheaper. Not being negative by any means, I'm just curious since steel is so expensive. You're going to have probably 8-10k just in steel for that machine.

    I know that the industrial machines are very expensive, but when you buy it you have a warranty. I'm guessing you're going to be over 20k with labor and all the parts pieces and electronics and that's probably on the low end. Just a word of advice after doing a build recently, add 25-30% to the estimated cost. Unless you have done it before and really know exactly what your BOM consists of. Don't just wing it like I did because I guarantee you will be underestimating how much all the little things cost.

    Good luck and I look forward to seeing the finished machine, it's going to be a beast.

    Dan



  9. #21
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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Thanks Dan.
    I build a lot of my own tools, its kind of who I am.

    My thought process: (enter at own risk)
    Buy new --- Too much money, too much training, I doubt it would pay for it self unless I open a full blown cabinet shop.

    Buy new import machine --- I got a quote from Omni for 15k+, who knows what kind of quality will show up? Machine support questionable if existent at all.

    Buy used machine --- All I read about buying unknown/old machines are horror stories about encoder diagrams that don't exist unless you talk to some guy named Jack in Hoboken. Or bypass Jack and reply to a thread from 2007 with a similar issue. I have been pretty close on a few machines but the thought of a huge boat anchor sitting in my garage has put the fear of God in me.

    Build --- I have a lot more tools than most I see building their own machines, and I need a long term project (hobby). Also the big one, technical support. I registered almost 4 years ago for this forum and I have truly been amazed at the support and encouragement around the DIY machines.

    How I do it now --- All the sheet goods are broken down on a table saw, dado'ed on the table saw, and drilled on a Blum Mini Press. I purchase drawer boxes, doors, and drawer fronts from Decore and they ship them to me. As of 2019 in Charlotte cabinets (painted) are running about $400LF for full overlay and $600LF for inset. When I build a spec house and provide the cabinets my material cost is around $160LF for inset(I mostly build inset). That's for all domestic pre-finished plywood, maple fronts, Blum hardware. An average house for me is about 120LF and takes me one month working nights and weekends to complete.

    Now, I could totally hire someone to build these cabinets for sure, but there is a lot of sawdust in my veins. My father, and his father were both professional woodworkers. I spent about 15 years in the trade before getting my GC license and started building and remodeling houses. One thing I have learned is building big things pays way better, but cabinet making is something I actually enjoy. I am always looking to improve my product and increase efficiency. The new machine will satisfy that as well.

    This could likely end in disaster, but I'm going to take it slow and work hard to keep everything straight level and plumb. In the end, I'm making cabinets.....



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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    @JakeInCharlotte, learning Fuson 360 may not be fun, but it is an investment you most likely won't regret.



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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Have you added up ALL the costs to build a CNC router? The steel, the grinding, the control system and the hardware. Have you built a CNC machine before? IF it was truly cheaper then there would be dozens of CNC router companies going out of business. Commercial machines new or used have a resale value, its not just buying one and then hauling it to the dump when your done with it!

    There are lots of US built machines, name brand machines new and used on the market. The Camaster and Shopbot forums have buy and sell sections.

    The Zone also has Forums for most of the good ones, check them out before you buy. If your spare time is making money on the side, then buy a machine and do it. You do not need .001 accuracy over 12 feet to make wood cabinets!!

    Oh you just want the fun of building, then go for it.

    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4


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    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Oh you just want the fun of building, then go for it.
    It's about the journey and learning new things for me. But, you can call me Sisyphus.

    I have a general idea of the budget after years of research. The drive system is the biggest part I don't know about. Servos with gear reduction sound great, but I have zero clue(right now) how to size them. It's kind of why I started this thread asking which part to start designing around. To me, it seems like the design is all about weight. Moving the weight, making sure the weight doesn't de-form the frame, and moving the weight around just enough to maximize the material. Once I figure out the weight, I will have a better estimate on the drives.

    That brings me to this question, the steel yard called and the 10" x 14' x 3/8" will cost and extra $975 over using 5/16". Should I stick with the 3/8" or will the 5/16" be ok? Part of the problem is the 3/8" only comes in 48' vs the 5/16" which is 40'. I would have a drop of (+/-) 6' vs 12' of 3/8" leftover. I'm sticking with 3/8" on the gantry beam.



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