CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame


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    Post CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Hello fellow engineers

    Well I've come to this forum because I hope to find more professional advice than I got on reddit. :-)

    I like to build me a 3040 (or bigger) CNC, but I am a bit hesitant to buy one of those china kits.
    First the electronics don't seem as a good idea, I like to use my own steppers with a arduino with shield.
    Then i see some differences in price and I guess therefore quality.

    I like to mill PCB's, Wood and Alu.

    So my question is, what Frame would you suggest I purchase, and is there a frame-kit which includes rails, instead of the rod system, and would not that make more sense to achieve higher accuracy?
    Where should i buy it, so i can be sure to get a quality frame? I've seen some interesting stuff on aliexpress, point is, i pay as much for the frame as for shipping.
    I know that they do it over Chinamail, and that costs a fraction of the shipping they want. So maybe you have a suggestion for a more professional vendor or source?

    The seller wants around 1400USD for the Frame, and 1000-1500 for the shipping:
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/mach...e6a675f8f0a-27

    which is a bit crazy i think.

    I like to hear comments on this topic and I am very grateful for your advice


    Thank you
    Roger

    Similar Threads:
    Last edited by yeti86; 10-26-2018 at 07:36 AM. Reason: correction in grammar


  2. #2
    ericks
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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    If i had to buy one again i would only buy the frame and try to get a machine with good rails. My machine's weakness is it's flex....
    The control panel is very simple to make

    CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame-control1-jpg

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame-control1-jpg  


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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    hi ericks

    yes that's what i think too. but which frame should i use and where should i get it?
    i wouldn't mind a 6040 frame neither btw. but except for aliexpress i cound not find anything.
    and i just don't like markets, where they give you like a 50% off, and the machines are priced so differently. it makes me a bit unsure where to buy....



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    ericks
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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti86 View Post
    hi ericks

    yes that's what i think too. but which frame should i use and where should i get it?
    i wouldn't mind a 6040 frame neither btw. but except for aliexpress i cound not find anything.
    and i just don't like markets, where they give you like a 50% off, and the machines are priced so differently. it makes me a bit unsure where to buy....
    I am sorry, not sure where you can buy a good frame. Surely others on this forum would be able to advise you on that. I plan to build good quality small machines soon as my machine is complete. However i think the price may kill any prospects of sales/business



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    I bought a basic 3040 off ebay years ago (it's a round-rail machine, like I said, basic, and cheap), and I negotiated with the seller to not include the electronics/control box. Cut a substantial amount off the price. I hooked it up to a TB6560 or whatever board and was off running (then shortly later upgraded to a G540 after getting frustrated with lost steps.) So if you find one you like that is packaged with electronics, that may be an option.
    No idea where to find a decent one with profile rails though.



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti86 View Post
    Hello fellow engineers

    Well I've come to this forum because I hope to find more professional advice than I got on reddit. :-)
    Know the place well, hopefully we can helps bit better.
    I like to build me a 3040 (or bigger) CNC, but I am a bit hesitant to buy one of those china kits.
    I wouldn’t buy for different reasons. One being the way they are trying (the Chinese government) screw over business in this country. Note this is bad for the average Chinese person who are generally good people.
    First the electronics don't seem as a good idea, I like to use my own steppers with a arduino with shield.
    Then i see some differences in price and I guess therefore quality.
    There are very few businesses in China that don’t have quality problems. Things have gotten better but price isn’t always a good quality guide. Don’t get me wrong quality costs but you can’t always use the price you pay as a quality guide anywhere in the world. In China though quality is a gamble even when dealing with the big players.
    I like to mill PCB's, Wood and Alu.
    Given that the concept of milling Aluminum varies so much it is hard to say if an Aluminum frammed machine even makes sense. Steel might be more cost effective but we need to consider rather strong fluctuations in prices recently.
    So my question is, what Frame would you suggest I purchase, and is there a frame-kit which includes rails, instead of the rod system, and would not that make more sense to achieve higher accuracy?
    If you really want to go the Aluminum frame route there are companies in the USA making kits that are worth looking into now o. I consider buying an extrusion kit to be one of the more expensive routes to take. However it can be a good choice if your shop is lacking equipment to accomplish builds with other materials.
    Where should i buy it, so i can be sure to get a quality frame? I've seen some interesting stuff on aliexpress, point is, i pay as much for the frame as for shipping.
    Shop the USA! If you are in a big city there is a good possibility that a Bosch, 80/20, Faztek or some other manufacture has a rep that can process the extrusion for you. Normally these guys work supplying industry with custom structures. So you will need a well done cut list maybe even engineering drawings per piece.

    Even if you stick with aluminum I’d suggest considering a steel gantry beam.
    I know that they do it over Chinamail, and that costs a fraction of the shipping they want. So maybe you have a suggestion for a more professional vendor or source?
    Like I said go with USA based suppliers.
    The seller wants around 1400USD for the Frame, and 1000-1500 for the shipping:
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/mach...e6a675f8f0a-27
    It all depends upon how they ship it. In general though it does seem a bit high. Understand this though Aluminum extrusions are not cheap! Even in China you still have to pay for the Aluminum, the special hardware and labor.

    You have other options in the USA also. For example you could try Misumi
    which is a bit crazy i think.

    I like to hear comments on this topic and I am very grateful for your advice


    Thank you
    Roger
    It is a lot to think about but consider a complete DIY machine as opposed to kits.



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Hello Wiz

    Yeah worthwile considering your points, thanks for the input



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    "This old Tony" did a build on youtube about a DYI CNC Router, can be seen here for anyone who is looking into the same goal i have:


    It is clear for me that i have not got the access to tools to build one myself



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    ericks
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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti86 View Post
    Thanks, but my workshop is in Spain/EU. Thanks anyway
    Where in Spain is it?



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Basque country, that would be in the north east, why?



  11. #11
    ericks
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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti86 View Post
    Basque country, that would be in the north east, why?
    Just wondered...we toured Spain a little this year, going back next year I love your country!!!



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti86 View Post
    "This old Tony" did a build on youtube about a DYI CNC Router, can be seen here for anyone who is looking into the same goal i have:
    This Old Tony is an excellent web site.

    It is clear for me that i have not got the access to tools to build one myself
    This is a problem many of us have. In this situation it is where extruded Aluminum router kits make sense. It probably doesn’t make any sense to try to order kits from the USA if you are in Spain. You could try contacting: https://www.cncrouterparts.com but I’d have to imagine high shipping costs and taxes. I’m not even sure they ship outside the USA.

    The reality is you don’t need a lot of tools to work with extruded T-Slotted Aluminum. With a good table saw and an accurate cross cut sled you can accomplish a lot. You would need an electric drill but a drill press would be better. The big problem I have with t slots is that the whole package is rather expensive, especially the required hardware. Worse in the end you don’t have a very rigid machine compared with what could be accomplished with other materials. However if you can find a local vendor of extruded Alumnum T slots and get access to equipment to cut it to length you might be able to save a bit on shipping costs and the high markup on kits. In some cases buying a few tools can be justified in a DIY effort.

    Now considering I’m not a big fan of T slot extrusions for machine frames I have to suggest that you consider other materials for your build. Locally steel has bee on dirt cheap though I can’t say for sure if that is true at the moment. The thing here there are ways to build with steel that avoid expensive machining operations. Epoxy leveling of the frame members that the linear rails will bolt to is one approach. You can also trouts a Gantry’s support columns to the base frame. The idea here is that much can be accomplished that minimizes the need to work with a machine shop.

    The reality is if you don’t have the tools, a DIY build will mean either buying from a parts manufacture or a local machine shop, those items you can’t fabricate yourself. So this sort of work needs to be factored into a DIY builds price. Still you may come out ahead depending upon the expense of getting a kit to your door.

    This brings up another issue, there is an endless variety of these 6040 routers on EBay. I’m assuming some are better than other as the extreme spread in prices would seem to indicate. The problem is none of them look all that robust compared to what you could do with a DIY build. Then you need to consider the bad reputation the electronics on these router have. So many people end up rebuilding or at least trying to improve the router to get it to work the way they want. The machines are a bit of a kit themselves. What is surprising here is that the 3040 and 6040 are often selling for the same price on E-Bay. So yeah one needs to ask why you are being quoted so much, basically the price for an upper end 6040. Frankly $500 would seem to be excessive for a 3040 frame unless it can be demonstrated that it is of better overall design / construction than the run of the mill machine.



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    you think epoxy leveling is a good idea to get the gantry straight?
    I rarly used it, but i think it would wear out quite fast no?

    because that is one of my biggest headaches I had when considering a DYI machine, to get all the parts align and correct to the level

    I mean we have metal industry which can provide me with custom cut stuff, but they can't be trusted with milling an such, only that the cuts are made precise
    the other thing is that I don’t have a drill press, but I guess a cheap one will do for the first build.

    Last edited by yeti86; 10-28-2018 at 03:42 PM.


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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    In EU you can buy alu profiles from motedis.com. They will cut all the pieces to required length.
    Set for small fixed gantry router will cost you something around 200 - 250 eur.

    CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame-cnc-v201-jpg
    CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame-bom-jpg



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Hi RsDJ and thanks for the input

    Do you have further infos about the design you posted or more material somewhere?



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti86 View Post
    you think epoxy leveling is a good idea to get the gantry straight?
    I rarly used it, but i think it would wear out quite fast no?
    There are a huge number of variable here so I'm not sure it makes sense to comment. That and Epoxy resins vary widely.

    That being said Epoxy resins of different types have been used for decades in the machine tool industry. In the USA this company: Devitt Machinery Company | Devitt Machinery Company has been supplying a variety of resins to industry for years! Well really decades as I entered industry in 1978 and moglice was well established back then. These days there are many sources for Epoxy resins.

    The resins used for leveling do have the potential to eventually migrate under load but again that depends upon many specifics. Some have mitigated the possibility by using a cold rolled sheet between the linear rails and the epoxy resin spreading out the load.
    because that is one of my biggest headaches I had when considering a DYI machine, to get all the parts align and correct to the level
    You are right to have this headache as much of the assembly work, in a machine build, is pretty simple. The tighter your expectations the more effort has to be put into machine alignment. If you have very high expectation I would avoid the 3040 moving gantry arrangement for a moving table build. In my opinion a moving table design is easier to get into precise alignment and to keep it in alignment.

    Even so the reality is that precise alignment requires a set of tools to do the alignments and the skills to understand how to move forward with machine alignment. These tools are generally manual tools but are not cheap to grab all at once. At a minimal you need a precise level, square and a high precision dial indicator and a decent stand for that dial indicator. Now we come to the other problem; you can't expect a 3040 class machine to come to you properly aligned and ready to go. So the reality is you will be buying tools for your machine be it a kit, DIY build or a new 3040 from China.
    I mean we have metal industry which can provide me with custom cut stuff, but they can't be trusted with milling an such, only that the cuts are made precise
    Either they are machinist or the aren't. Given that Epoxy leveling can greatly reduce your need to refer to a machinist. For many parts you can instead rely upon lead screw brackets, motor mounts and such, from commercial suppliers. By the way there are examples of guys building some temporary solutions to get a machine running good enough to machine parts for the machine out of aluminum. I seem to remember one guy installing hand wheels to mill out a piece of aluminum he needed to keep moving forward on his build.

    Another low cost tool approach is to cast the parts in aluminum. Yes that may seem extreme but it isn't as difficult as many think. You can do patterns in wood or even carve them out of foam for lost foam castings. There is more than one way to skin a cat here.
    the other thing is that I don’t have a drill press, but I guess a cheap one will do for the first build.
    I've actually have had really bad experiences with cheap drill presses so I can't recommend going too cheap. I've literally have found 40 and 50 year old drill presses in better shape than some of the junk that comes from China, so shop carefully. Oh and do not trust the show room floor machines as a realistic example of what is in the warehouse. I could go on but drill presses are a sore subject with me.

    Given all my concerns about cheap drill presses I have to admit that a mechanical solution to drilling makes a huge difference. Given that you are considering a machine build and a drill press you might want to look at the Mini Mills that are on the market. Some of them are better drill presses than many of the $600 drill presses on the market. More importantly they give you a passable milling capability. Once you have a mill you are well on your way to being able to build anything. lets put it this way I purchased a $500 drill press about a decade ago, I would have been better off buying a Mini mill of some sort even if that double or tripled my initial costs. The pain of purchase would have long passed and I would have built up a collection of tools to build things with. In your case if you don't want the mill after your build you can always sell it.

    In any event I hope that i'm instilling in your the idea that there are many possibilities here.



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Quote Originally Posted by RsDJ View Post
    In EU you can buy alu profiles from motedis.com. They will cut all the pieces to required length.
    Set for small fixed gantry router will cost you something around 200 - 250 eur.
    That isn't a bad design and it is moving table too!

    I might point out that a design like this can be hybrid with for example the base done in steel. I still like steel because it is very cheap and often can be had nearly for free. One source for steel tubing is old exercise equipment. When your pockets are shallow you sometimes have to think cheap. Scrap metal can be very cheap.



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard View Post

    I might point out that a design like this can be hybrid with for example the base done in steel.
    Exactly! And when you replace those base extrusions with 80x40 hollow section steel tubes, why would you go with multiple peace gantry beam bolted to vertical legs which, in my opinion, are the weakest point in this kind of design? Just replace them with single peace steel tube, something like 220x80 and dont use vertical legs, instead just rise gantry beam by bolting another 80x40 or 80x80 horizontaly between base frame and gantry beam. There you go, rigid steel frame for 1/10 of alu frame cost.
    But - it works only if you have tools, drill press, etc, it would take a lot of drilling and tapping for steel frame.



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    well mission accomplished i would say. I had now several inputs and some very good pointers what to consider and look out for.
    it led me to the right build logs and techniques others have come up with, so accomplish my goal. so thanks wiz for the coaching and also RsDJ for his input.

    i probably end up building two routers, one which will be smaller and not so accurate the goal is, in order to manufacture the parts I need for the bigger one and to learn.
    then i need also do address the workshop issue, build the accommodation for the new router, get the precision tools I need firstly for this project but also later for the actual stuff I had in mind building in the first place!

    Thanks again, much to process now and consider...



    for anyone who is reading this on a later stage, and finds himself in the same shoes, just about to get started on the topic:


    Epoxy Leveling:
    Use of epoxy for levelling
    BUILD LOG: Ready Steady Eddy - Page 11


    General Inputs/CNC Builds:
    https://grabcad.com/library?page=1&t...y=cnc%20router
    https://openbuilds.com/
    https://www.reddit.com/r/hobbycnc/wiki/index




    http://cnc.antoinepelloux.eu/en/
    https://www.instructables.com/id/302...CNC-Shield-V3/

    EU Source for Material:
    https://www.motedis.com/shop/



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    Default Re: CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti86 View Post
    Hi RsDJ and thanks for the input

    Do you have further infos about the design you posted or more material somewhere?
    I might have some fusion360 files, I'll check that later today.
    Funny, but I cant find a way to send private message, could someone help me out on this?

    Last edited by RsDJ; 10-29-2018 at 10:10 AM.


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CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame

CNC 3040 considerations and where to get the frame