New Machine Build Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K


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Thread: Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

  1. #1
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    Default Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

    I am currently designing a fixed gantry router inspired by this design:

    https://www.wadeodesign.com/cnc-router-build.html

    My objectives are the following:

    - Capable of cutting wood and aluminum
    - High-quality surface finish over speed
    - Automatic tool changer (10 tools)
    - 30" × 20" × 10" travel
    - 110V
    - $25K budget for parts

    One way to think about this design is as a machine that would provide capabilities similar to the Roland MDX-540SA, but with a much larger envelope and for a smaller budget ($25K instead of $36K).

    https://www.rolanddga.com/products/3...illing-machine

    I do not have the skills and tools to make the base and gantry myself. Instead, much like Waldeo's design, I will go for a BRUTE machine base:

    https://www.americangrinding.com/req...-model300.html

    My first question is this: I am planning to use the Model 300 with a bolted top plate so that I could easily change the underside table or the top plate. Will this design significantly affect rigidity and vibrations? And if so, what could I do to mitigate this?

    My second question is the following: how can I build the gantry? Instead of machining a square gantry out of steel (like Waldeo did), could I use heavy duty aluminum profiles instead, with just a ground steel plate mounted on it? This steel plate could be manufactured by the American Grinding and Machine Company (the "Brute" folks) and would be used to mount the rails for the Y axis. The aluminum profiles could be oversized (240mm × 120mm) in order to get a good-enough level of rigidity, and the only thing that would be lost is squareness. How could this be addressed? I am trying to use as many off-the-shelf components as possible, and to make custom-built pieces as simple and affordable as possible so that I can afford some mistakes/redesigns along the way (think "divide and conquer strategy"). This will be my first build, and I realize that I am being quite ambitious with this project.

    All axes will use linear rails and carriages with 25mm ballscrews and ballnuts, all from HIWIN. The X axis (the moving table) will use two sets of motor and ballscrew. All axes will use two rails and four carriages, and all motors will use NEMA 34 8Nm closed-loop stepper motors (Leadshine ES-MH33480 and Leadshine ES-DH2306), all directly connected to the ballscrews using shaft couplers. Any apparent problem with that design? Will HIWIN HGW carriages be sufficient, or should I go for higher-precision models?

    For control, I was planning to go for a Galil DMC-4080 with support for 8 axes:

    DMC-40x0 | Galil

    The price difference with a 4-axis model is not that significant, and this would allow me to add a 4th axis (since X is driven by two motors, I need support for 5 axes on the controller) as well as some options in the future (automatic cover for the tools for example). This controller would be used in conjunction with Mach4. Is there any better combination that I should consider?

    The one component that I am not so sure about is the spindle. The best option that I have found so far is the Mechatron ATC-8022-42-HSK:

    https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...SK_-_WEB_2.pdf

    I really like the HSK-E25 tool holder, the rotation speed (42,000 RPM), and the water cooling. Also, I do not think that I will need more power (2.2KW), because I favor finish over speed (I want a machine for prototyping, not production). Unfortunately, very little is available about the manufacturer. I would love to hear from people who have used their spindles, or to learn about alternative options in the $4K to $5K price range.

    One critical aspect of the design is 110V (my garage does not have 220V). This is one of the reasons why I cannot install a more powerful spindle, because finding a suitable frequency inverter is a challenge. For the time being, I am planning to go with this no-brand model, but I would not mind paying a little bit more for an alternative from a more established supplier:

    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...-110vac-input/

    One part of the design that I have not figured out yet is pneumatics for the ATC. This introduction from Damen CNC makes a lot of sense to me, but I really do not like the idea of spending close to $5,000 for their kit. Any recommendation for a more affordable alternative?

    https://www.damencnc.com/products/mi..._w_37_556_GB_1

    The initial $25K budget won't cover them, but I am looking at the following optional components as well. Suggestions for better alternatives are much welcome:

    # 4th Axis: Damen 4th axis with 100mm chuck — $1,493.43
    https://www.damencnc.com/products/mo...w_69_1627_GB_1

    # Lubrication System: Dynacut MDE-P2 — $465.53
    http://www.dynacut.eu/schmiersystem_mde_p.html

    # Toolsetter: Z-NANO Toolsetter — $1,458.43
    https://www.blum-novotest.com/en/pro...no-series.html

    # Touch Probe: 3D-finder Touch Probe — $418.86
    https://www.sorotec.de/shop/3D-Finde...nsor-6411.html

    Many thanks in advance for your help.

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    Default Re: Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

    Pay an electrician to bring 220V to your garage, whatever it costs. Trying to run a 2.2Kw spindle on 110V is not a good option. And you'll only get 24,000 rpm from that VFD, as the spindle needs 700Hz to reach 42,000 rpm.
    And I'd get a bigger spindle. But any other spindle is likely to cost considerably more.

    The pneumatics for an ATC are pretty simple. You could probably do it for ~$100. A few relays and solenoids is all you need.

    I'd go with 400w-750w ac servos over the closed loop steppers. Huge performance increase, for minimal cost increase relative to the overall budget.

    I'd ask a lot of questions about what the Mach4 Galil plugin supports before spending the money on it.

    Gerry

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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

    If I were you, I'd check into the cost of upgrading your electric service to 220v. Most US houses have it as an alternative, and it may cost less than you think to have a 220v circuit installed. Any European equipment you get will want it, and it's rare to find a VFD that will run a sizable spindle on 110v.

    The design seems sound enough, especially since you're going with dual motors on X, but a drawing would help if you want feedback on your gantry ideas. If you're talking about Oldham or Lovejoy couplers, that's fine, but don't use solid ones unless you're confident that alignments are absolutely perfect.

    Andrew Werby
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    Default Re: Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    If I were you, I'd check into the cost of upgrading your electric service to 220v. Most US houses have it as an alternative, and it may cost less than you think to have a 220v circuit installed. Any European equipment you get will want it, and it's rare to find a VFD that will run a sizable spindle on 110v.

    The design seems sound enough, especially since you're going with dual motors on X, but a drawing would help if you want feedback on your gantry ideas. If you're talking about Oldham or Lovejoy couplers, that's fine, but don't use solid ones unless you're confident that alignments are absolutely perfect.
    Andrew,

    Thank you for the feedback! The area I live in makes it really hard to get 220V, and the quote I got for adding a line from my (rental) house to my garage was $10K, not including all the necessary permits. Pretty insane, but that's what I have to deal with...

    The shaft coupler I was planning to use is this one, but I might decide to go for a beefier model:

    https://www.damencnc.com/products/me..._166_1177_GB_1

    I found some more details on Wade'O's design, and this is giving me some ideas:

    https://www.wadeodesign.com/design-details.html

    The gantry could use two of these stands:

    https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detai...543230/?Inch=0

    In 150mm × 150mm × 300mm with holes spaced by 120mm, I could easily mount the following aluminum profile without any additional machining (attaching the 160mm of the profile to the 150mm width of the 300mm tall stands).:

    https://product.item24.de/en/product...natural-48077/

    This would provide 320mm of vertical mounting space for the Y axis, allowing me to get the two rails for the Y axis spaced by 280mm.

    I will try to provide a drawing soon, but for now it's safe to say that what I'm contemplating is very close to Wade'O's excellent design.



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    Default Re: Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Pay an electrician to bring 220V to your garage, whatever it costs. Trying to run a 2.2Kw spindle on 110V is not a good option. And you'll only get 24,000 rpm from that VFD, as the spindle needs 700Hz to reach 42,000 rpm.
    And I'd get a bigger spindle. But any other spindle is likely to cost considerably more.

    The pneumatics for an ATC are pretty simple. You could probably do it for ~$100. A few relays and solenoids is all you need.

    I'd go with 400w-750w ac servos over the closed loop steppers. Huge performance increase, for minimal cost increase relative to the overall budget.

    I'd ask a lot of questions about what the Mach4 Galil plugin supports before spending the money on it.
    ger21,

    Thank you so much for the helpful feedback. I guess I'll have to bite the bullet on the 220V circuit then...

    Where should I look for regarding the spindle?

    I will look into the servos.



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    Default Re: Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Pay an electrician to bring 220V to your garage, whatever it costs. Trying to run a 2.2Kw spindle on 110V is not a good option. And you'll only get 24,000 rpm from that VFD, as the spindle needs 700Hz to reach 42,000 rpm.
    And I'd get a bigger spindle. But any other spindle is likely to cost considerably more.

    The pneumatics for an ATC are pretty simple. You could probably do it for ~$100. A few relays and solenoids is all you need.

    I'd go with 400w-750w ac servos over the closed loop steppers. Huge performance increase, for minimal cost increase relative to the overall budget.

    I'd ask a lot of questions about what the Mach4 Galil plugin supports before spending the money on it.
    ger21,

    Here is what I have found so far (feedback much welcome):

    # Spindle: HSS HSK 25E Spindle, 40,000 RPM, 3.6hp — $6,445 (with all options)
    https://www.hsspindles.com/product/hsk-25e-spindle/

    # Inverter: Delta VFD022B23 — $475.00
    https://www.hsspindles.com/product/3...ter-230-volts/

    # Motors: Delta AC Servo Motor 750W with Brake ECMA-C20807SS — $641.42
    https://www.damencnc.com/products/cn...w_120_816_GB_1

    # Drivers: Delta AC Servo Drive 750W ASD-A2-0721-M — $416.00
    https://www.damencnc.com/products/cn...830_GB_1___ups

    The required budget is likely to reach $30K, but I don't see how to avoid that. The servos and drivers are much nicer though, and I can clearly see the benefits they will bring. Also, as long as I'm below $36K (price of the Roland MDX-540), I'm happy.



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    Default Re: Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

    Quote Originally Posted by ishi View Post
    I am currently designing a fixed gantry router inspired by this design:

    https://www.wadeodesign.com/cnc-router-build.html
    That is a very good implementation to base your design upon

    My objectives are the following:

    - Capable of cutting wood and aluminum
    - High-quality surface finish over speed
    - Automatic tool changer (10 tools)
    - 30" × 20" × 10" travel
    - 110V
    Personal opinion here but running a $25K machine on 110 would be a complete waste.
    - $25K budget for parts
    That is a budget that most builders don't have here. Huge in fact.


    I do not have the skills and tools to make the base and gantry myself. Instead, much like Waldeo's design, I will go for a BRUTE machine base:

    https://www.americangrinding.com/req...-model300.html
    Just so you know there are numerous companies that will build such machine tool bases. For example: Machine Bases | Machine Risers & Pedestals by Inter-Lakes Bases, Machine Bases | Machine Risers & Pedestals by Inter-Lakes Bases (probably a little outsized for your needs), Power Feed Units, Indexers, Multiple Spindle Heads, Automatic Drill Units, CNC Machines | Hause Machines, Montpelier, Ohio - Bases, Columns, Risers, are a couple of examples. There are far more companies to choose from so finding the best deal could take some shopping around.

    Also local machine shops might be able to take care of you cheaper. Beyond that these tables show up as used items all the time, if there are not too many holes in the table top they can be vary cost effective.

    The one problem you might not be aware of is that these tables can be very heavy. I know at work we have a few smallish Interlake bases that are heavy enough to require mechanical aids to move. You can get quick estimates of weight by taking the volume of the table top plate and using that to calculate the tops weight. 1 inch thick steel plates can end up very heavy requiring a fork lift or other mechanical means to move. I mention this because your extremely limited garage could be an issue handling wise.

    My first question is this: I am planning to use the Model 300 with a bolted top plate so that I could easily change the underside table or the top plate. Will this design significantly affect rigidity and vibrations? And if so, what could I do to mitigate this?
    it might depending upon what you get exactly. With only 20" of travel you might not have any problems. As for mitigation it is the table thickness and the amount of that table that is unsupported is what matters. The tables are built to a set of parameters which you must specify at build time.

    I do wonder though why you choose a design with no legs.

    My second question is the following: how can I build the gantry? Instead of machining a square gantry out of steel (like Waldeo did), could I use heavy duty aluminum profiles instead, with just a ground steel plate mounted on it? This steel plate could be manufactured by the American Grinding and Machine Company (the "Brute" folks) and would be used to mount the rails for the Y axis.
    I'm not a big fan of this approach. For one if you are working with a steel fabricator why not make everything out of steel? Second steel is excellent in a moving table design because weight doesn't matter. That is you get the strength of steel without paying the weight penalty. If the beam you choose is thick enough it can be ground flat and still retain steels screw holding capability.
    The aluminum profiles could be oversized (240mm × 120mm) in order to get a good-enough level of rigidity, and the only thing that would be lost is squareness. How could this be addressed? I am trying to use as many off-the-shelf components as possible, and to make custom-built pieces as simple and affordable as possible so that I can afford some mistakes/redesigns along the way (think "divide and conquer strategy"). This will be my first build, and I realize that I am being quite ambitious with this project.
    One possible approach is to have the gantry beam welded up with the required legs (vertical supports) and with the Y axis linear rail mounting area ground. Then after a bit of alignment, most likely with jack screws, you grout the feet to the table assembly. Given that you have proper metrology equipment you can achieve some really good accuracy this way.
    All axes will use linear rails and carriages with 25mm ballscrews and ballnuts, all from HIWIN. The X axis (the moving table) will use two sets of motor and ballscrew. All axes will use two rails and four carriages, and all motors will use NEMA 34 8Nm closed-loop stepper motors (Leadshine ES-MH33480 and Leadshine ES-DH2306), all directly connected to the ballscrews using shaft couplers. Any apparent problem with that design? Will HIWIN HGW carriages be sufficient, or should I go for higher-precision models?
    Dual ball screws may not be required

    For control, I was planning to go for a Galil DMC-4080 with support for 8 axes:

    DMC-40x0 | Galil

    The price difference with a 4-axis model is not that significant, and this would allow me to add a 4th axis (since X is driven by two motors, I need support for 5 axes on the controller) as well as some options in the future (automatic cover for the tools for example). This controller would be used in conjunction with Mach4. Is there any better combination that I should consider?

    The one component that I am not so sure about is the spindle. The best option that I have found so far is the Mechatron ATC-8022-42-HSK:

    https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...SK_-_WEB_2.pdf

    I really like the HSK-E25 tool holder, the rotation speed (42,000 RPM), and the water cooling. Also, I do not think that I will need more power (2.2KW), because I favor finish over speed (I want a machine for prototyping, not production). Unfortunately, very little is available about the manufacturer. I would love to hear from people who have used their spindles, or to learn about alternative options in the $4K to $5K price range.
    An ATC spindle will end up being a significant part of your budget, there is no way around that. My big concern is that a 2.2KW spindle isn't suitable for running on a 15amp, 120 VAC outlet. Such an outlet provides 1800 watts or power and that doesn't include other things drawing power at the same time. Now you may or may not intend to load the spindle fully but you will have a very bad day if the spindles trips the breaker in the middle of a run.
    One critical aspect of the design is 110V (my garage does not have 220V). This is one of the reasons why I cannot install a more powerful spindle, because finding a suitable frequency inverter is a challenge. For the time being, I am planning to go with this no-brand model, but I would not mind paying a little bit more for an alternative from a more established supplier:

    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...-110vac-input/

    One part of the design that I have not figured out yet is pneumatics for the ATC. This introduction from Damen CNC makes a lot of sense to me, but I really do not like the idea of spending close to $5,000 for their kit. Any recommendation for a more affordable alternative?

    https://www.damencnc.com/products/mi..._w_37_556_GB_1

    The initial $25K budget won't cover them, but I am looking at the following optional components as well. Suggestions for better alternatives are much welcome:

    # 4th Axis: Damen 4th axis with 100mm chuck — $1,493.43
    https://www.damencnc.com/products/mo...w_69_1627_GB_1

    # Lubrication System: Dynacut MDE-P2 — $465.53
    http://www.dynacut.eu/schmiersystem_mde_p.html

    # Toolsetter: Z-NANO Toolsetter — $1,458.43
    https://www.blum-novotest.com/en/pro...no-series.html

    # Touch Probe: 3D-finder Touch Probe — $418.86
    https://www.sorotec.de/shop/3D-Finde...nsor-6411.html

    Many thanks in advance for your help.
    Your garage needs a more robust electrical system.

    In any event it looks like you have a cool project at hand.



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    Default Re: Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

    Quote Originally Posted by ishi View Post
    Andrew,

    Thank you for the feedback! The area I live in makes it really hard to get 220V, and the quote I got for adding a line from my (rental) house to my garage was $10K, not including all the necessary permits. Pretty insane, but that's what I have to deal with...
    That 10K price is pretty insane but we don't know the specifics of the property. I would seriously consider getting other quotes.

    The bigger issue in my mind is the indication that this is a rental. Depending upon the property that could make the instillation and operation of the machine next to impossible. IF this is a complex you will likely have all sorts of problems running the machine even if you can build it.
    The shaft coupler I was planning to use is this one, but I might decide to go for a beefier model:

    https://www.damencnc.com/products/me..._166_1177_GB_1

    I found some more details on Wade'O's design, and this is giving me some ideas:

    https://www.wadeodesign.com/design-details.html

    The gantry could use two of these stands:

    https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detai...543230/?Inch=0
    Why not use one of the models that has its own legs? At least with the interlakes bases I'm familiar with the welded construction is pretty solid. Having the base and legs complete just eliminates more chores at your end.

    In 150mm × 150mm × 300mm with holes spaced by 120mm, I could easily mount the following aluminum profile without any additional machining (attaching the 160mm of the profile to the 150mm width of the 300mm tall stands).:

    https://product.item24.de/en/product...natural-48077/

    This would provide 320mm of vertical mounting space for the Y axis, allowing me to get the two rails for the Y axis spaced by 280mm.

    I will try to provide a drawing soon, but for now it's safe to say that what I'm contemplating is very close to Wade'O's excellent design.




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    Default Re: Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

    Wizard,

    Thank you so much for the very detailed feedback. You are right: I am switching to 220V. The whole design makes no sense otherwise. Also, I am planning to go for Inter-Lakes:

    Machine Base Model B-300 by Inter-Lakes Bases

    I know this base is really heavy, but I do not mind. As long as I can lift it with a standard pallet jack, I am fine. The table will be 48" x 48" x 36".

    And as far as the gantry is concerned, I agree that steel is the way to go, possibly even ground cast iron if I can find the right supplier. Hause Machines might be able to help there.

    The question of dual ball screws is an interesting one. The price difference is less than 5% of the total design, and I would hate to compromise on power and precision by going with a single one. Also, I might load the table with more stuff down the road (trunnion table maybe).



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    Default Re: Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

    If you are spending 25-30k why not buy a used Haas or even 10k on a Fadal?



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    Default Re: Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

    Quote Originally Posted by alannext View Post
    If you are spending 25-30k why not buy a used Haas or even 10k on a Fadal?
    For two main reasons:

    1. I would not learn anywhere as much.
    2. I doubt that I could find a Haas at that price with a high speed spindle.



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    Default Re: Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under $25K

    I talked to High Speed Spindles today and really liked what I learned. I am going for this model:

    https://www.hsspindles.com/product/hsk-25e-spindle/

    Also, I talked to Pyramid Granite and Metals:

    Precision Granite Machine Bases - Pyramid Granite & Metals

    This will give me the most rigid base I could get. It won't be light (close to 2,500 lbs just for the granite), but it will be square, rigid, and stable (no heat expansion). It will increase the cost of the build by about $5K, but it will guarantee that I have a very solid foundation.

    The design will be similar to an earlier design that was submitted to the forum earlier (see picture). The only differences are:

    - The X axis will have two motors
    - The grove on the baseplate will go all the way through
    - The two rails for the Y axis will be coplanar (simpler)
    - The bridge will have a grove similar to the baseplate's
    - The motor for the X axis will be on the back flush within the baseplate
    - The motor for the Y axis will be flush within the bridge
    - The pillars will be perfectly vertical instead of slanted

    Here are the dimensions (reviewed by Pyramid's engineering department):

    - Baseplate: 48" x 48" x 8"
    - Pillars: 6" x 8" x 12"
    - Bridge: 48" x 8" x 12"

    The pillars and bridge will be B grade (Toolroom), but the top of the baseplate will be A grade (Inspection).

    In case anyone is interested, fabrication takes about 6 weeks and the four components are delivered assembled and squared. Also, every metal insert adds about $20 to the build. The only thing to keep in mind is that designs should be kept as simple and "rectangular" as possible in order to keep fabrication costs down (through holes and pockets should be avoided whenever possible).

    The total budget is now revised to $35K, not including the table from Inter-Lakes, which will be added later on (I want some time to properly design the electrical cabinets that will be placed within it). But with that budget, I'm still below the $36K of the Roland MDX-540SA, which was the original target.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fixed Gantry Router with HSK-E25 ATC for under K-mill-jpg  


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