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  1. #21
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    Thumbs up Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1stPrototype View Post
    I bought one and mounted it on 1.5kw Chinese spindle. It's not plug and play, and the documentation is sparse. The unit feels very well constructed and precise, but it has some critical gotchas.

    First off, you have to get your spindle taken apart at the top, just to access the pin spanner holes at the top of the shaft. Without that, there is no way to immobilize the spindle to thread the changer on -- and nobody tells you this before you buy it. The Chinese spindles have no spindle lock built-in like the Kress routers that the ATC was originally designed for so they require surgery. With water-cooled spindles, extra care needs to be taken when reassembling the top portion, as that is where the water/electrical barrier is crucial. There are two tiny o-rings counterbored into one side of the mating faces, and they are covered with a slopass dollop of some kind of sealant. In my case, one remained glued to each of the separated faces, and I didn't even notice them the first time I took it apart and reassembled it -- I got lucky, because on subsequent teardowns, one o-ring popped out and rolled across the bench.

    The second gotcha - a probable design flaw in the ATC unit. There is a cylindrical collar that screws over the tapered shaft that mates to the Chinese spindle. That collar is about 30 mm in diameter, and is held in place (at 24000 rpm) by about 3 threads, engaging the bearing preloader beneath it only about 2mm. During my first attempted cut, the collar separated from the preloader and that caused the top and bottom air seals to self-destruct. The manufacturer seems to not believe this, and tried to convince me it was my fault for ejecting the tool while spinning...but that did not happen. My theory is that aggressive spindle braking worked the collar loose and exposed its insufficient thread engagement flaw.
    Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...-destructomatic-jpg Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...-closeup-jpg

    The replacement seal kit is about $10 and the shipping is 20 -- for a 40mm x 1mm and a 30mm x 1mm silicone washer. I sourced some 1mm silicone sheet and machined a set of punch dies to cut my own seals -- since I don't believe these seals can last very long as designed. The top seal, in particular, is subject to constant friction, as its inner diameter rides in a groove machined into the spinning collar while its outer diameter is held down by a pinch plate and o-ring. The collar is now held in place with a fair application of Loctite, and we'll see how it holds up. So far, so good in dry runs...not cutting.

    I've actually made some modifications to the Chinese spindle to mimic a spindle lock, so now I can install and remove the ATC without giving the spindle another lobotomy. I'll make some test cuts later this week and share anything that is interesting.

    Hi,

    I have the same or similar ATC and a 1.5k water cooled spindle. I've had bearing issues with the ATC and I'm trying to get the ATC removed from the spindle (again) but it's jammed on this time. Can you advise what modifications you managed to make to your spindle to be able to lock it, and how effective was it?

    Thanks SV.



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    Default Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    Quote Originally Posted by ScotiaVisuals View Post
    Hi,

    I have the same or similar ATC and a 1.5k water cooled spindle. I've had bearing issues with the ATC and I'm trying to get the ATC removed from the spindle (again) but it's jammed on this time. Can you advise what modifications you managed to make to your spindle to be able to lock it, and how effective was it?

    Thanks SV.
    It's an ugly, brutal hack. Following the red arrow in, I drilled two small holes 180 deg. apart in the spindle collar. To "lock" the shaft, I loosen tool changer clamp collar, push it downward until it hits the air inlet fitting, and position as pictured, to align with one of the slots in the ATC clamping fingers. I then use the shank of a small drill bit (with cutting surfaces covered with electrical tape) to engage with one of the holes I drilled in the spindle collar. Voila - barnyard spindle lock.

    *I cannot endorse this method for anyone else to use. YMMV, I'm dumb and lucky...so far.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...-closeup2-jpg  
    Last edited by 1stPrototype; 09-05-2019 at 09:19 AM.


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    Default Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    Goemon
    They need to stop comparing their pricing to the industrial market because hobby users aren't writing off the cost against profit. The value of a hobby ATC product is only in convenience.

    They need a design that doesn't use pneumatics at all. It needs to use a (fairly cheap) servo or stepper motor with some gears and a mechanical method of stopping the spindle turning while the change happens.
    Do you perhaps mean something like this german has built for his machine?
    It seems like it is working pretty ok.

    https://hackaday.com/2016/06/20/hack...-tool-changer/





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    Default Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    I really wanted an ATC for my machine. I looked and researched and tried just about everything for around 2 years. I made the tormach style changer (Mock up for feasibility) using a head stock from a lathe, a MT2 1/2" collet, and homemade draw bar, actually worked pretty well. Until I tried to run it past 5000 rpm. then the vibration was pretty scary. We build spindles at the company I work for (large ones, 120mm is the smallest). I showed my design to the engineers who design the spindles. They said it was defiantly do-able. The issue was that you would need to do high precision machining and balancing, which are expensive. To make a prototype I would be looking at a few thousand.

    So it's not that it can't be done, it's just that to get what we need it's expensive. In the end I dropped around $2k for a used columbo, and a new Delta VFD. and another $300 on tool holders (Got lucky got 12 used for $300). I would do this again in a second. I see used ones come up on eBay every once in awhile, just need patience.

    One other thing I looked at was using a router, and actually swapping out routers. This would be the cheapest method, but take the most space. You can buy porter cable routers on eBay for less than $100. Or make your Y axis extra long and put 2 or 3 routers on the same set of rails with different drives, for Y1, Y2, Y3 etc. I know routers aren't the best spindles, but changing brushes and bearings is actually pretty easy.



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    Default Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    HI,

    My spindle is ER16, 1.5 kW. Can i use this to use as quick change

    What i am thinking is that a hardened precise rod will be tightened in the existing ER16 collet chuck . Th other end with 2 flats will go into the back end of this fitting. The allen keys will be used as quick fit mounting. one of each will be used for a cutter and ready for allen keyeing.

    will it work at high rpm ?
    will it be a good idea for manual ATC ?
    will it work at all?

    Regards

    Live long and prosper.


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    Default Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    I bought this ATC spindle. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Combo-ATC-T...cAAOSwd1tdstV0
    I had looked around and couldn't beat his price. For what I do I love it. Considering all the extras that come with it I thought it was a good price.



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    Default Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    HI,

    My spindle is ER16, 1.5 kW. Can i use this to use as quick change

    What i am thinking is that a hardened precise rod will be tightened in the existing ER16 collet chuck . Th other end with 2 flats will go into the back end of this fitting. The allen keys will be used as quick fit mounting. one of each will be used for a cutter and ready for allen keyeing.

    will it work at high rpm ?
    will it be a good idea for manual ATC ?
    will it work at all?

    Regards

    here are the photos of the 2 components to be joined with a 10mm rod.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...-specification-jpg   Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...-spindle-jpeg  
    Live long and prosper.


  8. #28
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    Default Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    There are 3 basic types of spindles:
    - belt drive
    - direct drive
    - integrated motor

    Belt is very easy to ATC, you can run the drawbar straight through and actuate it from the top.
    Motor spindle is a bit trickier. you still run the drawbar through, however the size of the springs make the motor MUCH larger and it would normally be.
    Direct drive is the most convoluted - but can be the most elegant. You need to put a drawbar release *somewhere* below the motor.

    You can buy bt30 ATC belt spindles for as low as $500 (6000rpm limited). You then need to add a head, motor mounting plate, motor, pulleys, belt, air cylinder...

    You can get jianken motor spindles for about $1200 for ISO20, $1400 for ISO25, and about $1500 for ISO30, ISO10 for $1600 (60krpm). They also sell the "clamp the endmill directly" spindles for $1000, 60000rpm, 62mm diam, 1.8kw.
    Big HSD type integrated spindles are the most common for industrial woodworking, but they are heavy and very expensive - even the chinese "hsd knock off" spindles are $2000+, Italian models are $4000+

    The adapter types in this thread are in the direct drive category. They just aren't done very well....
    The simplest and most reliable ATC spindle is direct drive though, used in Brother and Fanuc tapping centres. The motor is simply any ac servo, coupled the same way as it would be to a ball screw. It has a cross pin below the motor coupling that actuates the drawbar. A lever presses the pin. The lever is actuated by a cam roller via Z axis motion. The tool carousel is above the spindle. In one motion, the Z moves up, the tool magazine gripper holds the tool, the drawbar releases, the tool comes out of the spindle, the carousel spins to the next tool, then it all comes down. Tool changes take as long as it takes to move your Z up then down about 4". There is no air, no hydraulics, only a motor to spin the carousel and some sensors. Even the carousel encoder is dead simple, a laser cut wheel with optical sensors, like a mouse wheel. These tool change mechanisms can last millions of tool changes without failure because there is virtually nothing to break.

    There are currently no low cost variations of these spindles. It's about $1500-$2000 for one that goes in an actual tapping centre. Someone would do well to make an ISO20 or BT30/80mm version with a easily makeable / 3d printable tool magazine.

    wotzBotz


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    Default Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    Quote Originally Posted by shujaa View Post
    HI,

    My spindle is ER16, 1.5 kW. Can i use this to use as quick change

    What i am thinking is that a hardened precise rod will be tightened in the existing ER16 collet chuck . Th other end with 2 flats will go into the back end of this fitting. The allen keys will be used as quick fit mounting. one of each will be used for a cutter and ready for allen keyeing.

    will it work at high rpm ?
    will it be a good idea for manual ATC ?
    will it work at all?

    Regards

    here are the photos of the 2 components to be joined with a 10mm rod.
    Will it work at all? Sure.
    Is it a good idea and will it work at high speed? No.
    You'd be reducing rigidity quite a lot by hanging something out on the end of a 10mm rod, even if it's a short extension. Having a set-screw type connection is generally a no-go at higher RPM's, and definitely not something you want to have a whole collet chuck hanging off of.



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    Default Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post
    There are currently no low cost variations of these spindles. It's about $1500-$2000 for one that goes in an actual tapping centre. Someone would do well to make an ISO20 or BT30/80mm version with a easily makeable / 3d printable tool magazine.
    Do you happen to know who is selling these kind of spindles?



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    Default Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    The proper ones? Everyone, haha. One specific company I've talked with is microlab. they are on the upper end of the price range. They have a few different type - meant to fit different machines. One looks a lot like a fanuc fit.
    I think ever taiwan spindle maker has one, but I've only talked to the one.

    wotzBotz


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    Default

    There is no perfect approach to the spindle speed nor the tool change problem.

    If you look at all of the solutions to either problem that have been applied to R8 (Bridgeport as an example) milling machines the problem of tool changes and spindle speeds has been solved in many ways.

    One approach to high speed was to mount a high speed spindle to the side of the mills head. Another was to mount a sub spindle in the R8 spindle driven by a small motor. There are many others.

    Like wise fast tool change has been accomplished in many ways over the years. Today one popular approach on R8 is the Tormach Tooling System.

    In any event what I’m trying to get at is that one needs to consider what will work best for a specific need. For example multiple routers can be a good idea and frankly there are several approaches to this. You could swap out the whole router quick change style. You could mount two routers side by side. Or you could implement two Z axis.

    I’m actually surprised that more users don’t go the two Z axis route. This is doable with routers or real spindles requiring only minor adjustments in machine size.

    With respect to dual spindles on one Z axis this was a common solution to upping productivity all the way back to the early 1900’s when manual profile mills where common. It’s an idea worth considering for small scale manufacturing even today.

    Quote Originally Posted by TTalma View Post
    I really wanted an ATC for my machine. I looked and researched and tried just about everything for around 2 years. I made the tormach style changer (Mock up for feasibility) using a head stock from a lathe, a MT2 1/2" collet, and homemade draw bar, actually worked pretty well. Until I tried to run it past 5000 rpm. then the vibration was pretty scary. We build spindles at the company I work for (large ones, 120mm is the smallest). I showed my design to the engineers who design the spindles. They said it was defiantly do-able. The issue was that you would need to do high precision machining and balancing, which are expensive. To make a prototype I would be looking at a few thousand.

    So it's not that it can't be done, it's just that to get what we need it's expensive. In the end I dropped around $2k for a used columbo, and a new Delta VFD. and another $300 on tool holders (Got lucky got 12 used for $300). I would do this again in a second. I see used ones come up on eBay every once in awhile, just need patience.

    One other thing I looked at was using a router, and actually swapping out routers. This would be the cheapest method, but take the most space. You can buy porter cable routers on eBay for less than $100. Or make your Y axis extra long and put 2 or 3 routers on the same set of rails with different drives, for Y1, Y2, Y3 etc. I know routers aren't the best spindles, but changing brushes and bearings is actually pretty easy.




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    Default Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    Thanks Skrubol,
    Your comments have been a great help.
    Best regards.

    Live long and prosper.


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    Default Re: Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard View Post
    Like wise fast tool change has been accomplished in many ways over the years. Today one popular approach on R8 is the Tormach Tooling System .

    Just a correction on calling it the Tormach Tooling System, this was a Chinese Design and sold as such before Tormach used it or if you like copied it to use with there machines

    Mactec54


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Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...

Check out this ATC adapter for regular ER11 Chinese spindles...