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  1. #41

    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Love all the discussion. I'm currently running a 1mX1m Shapeoko2 and it's got issues with rigidity. It's just the nature of that design. My aim in building my own machine was to build something with far less flex. I think I can do that.



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    This makes it sound like the time for MDF has passed ... which is likely true but some guidance would be appreciated.

    I'd like to try to do stiffness and defection analysis of different sized MDF ribs and spars and compare that to a similar structure of extruded aluminum. My bias is that aluminum extrusion is used for convenience and other factors that have nothing to do with building a well engineered structure. Well engineered means the choice of materials is in line with the requirements for strength and the structure is appropriate for required stiffness.

    It could be that extruded aluminum has superior strength and pre-made systems such remarkable stiffness, well beyond anything that is likely to be made with MDF, that it's not worth the time to examine. Am I trying to boil the ocean by not falling in line?
    I'm still a major proponent of wood construction, but I take a bit more of a high tech approach.

    My next machine is a 4x8, dual spindle router built mostly from wood. The gantry is 67" long, and MDF. I calculated the deflection at about .002" with a 200lb load. (I think, it's been a while). It's an 8" box with 1" mdf panels. But the 1" is made up of 4 laminated layers of 1/4" MDF for added rigidity. I cut the parts a about 2 years ago, but still haven't assembled it yet.
    Pics here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-wo...ml#post1168468

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    I'm still a major proponent of wood construction, but I take a bit more of a high tech approach.

    My next machine is a 4x8, dual spindle router built mostly from wood. The gantry is 67" long, and MDF. I calculated the deflection at about .002" with a 200lb load. (I think, it's been a while). It's an 8" box with 1" mdf panels. But the 1" is made up of 4 laminated layers of 1/4" MDF for added rigidity. I cut the parts a about 2 years ago, but still haven't assembled it yet.
    Pics here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-wo...ml#post1168468
    Good to know Gerry. The only experience I have with laminated beams is from the Canadian Wood-Frame House Construction guide when I did some renovations a few years back http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/odpub/pdf...=1414012864483. Can a laminated beam like you describe be made true just with a table saw or do you recommend a planer too? For torsion box construction I'd think an accurate thickness isn't a concern. Your laminated beam idea has given me even more to think about and the url reference even more reading material.

    Quote Originally Posted by fretman_2 View Post
    Love all the discussion. I'm currently running a 1mX1m Shapeoko2 and it's got issues with rigidity. It's just the nature of that design. My aim in building my own machine was to build something with far less flex. I think I can do that.
    Considering these types of systems, and the piles of others just like them, appear in my opinion to be assembled and not engineered it's not a surprise that you come to learn "it's got issues with rigidity". Are there no simple metrics these vendors can publish to help inform consumers? It's their job for heaven's sakes!

    Last edited by volvox311; 03-30-2016 at 11:55 AM.


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    It's not a single beam. It's a torsion box, with each face being a laminated panel. I would not recommend a single laminated beam, as it will only be rigid in one direction.
    I laminated the panels for extra stiffness due to the length.
    For a smaller machine, a torsion box is fine. My current machine uses a baltic birch torsion box for the gantry beam. Consistent thickness is not usually a concern, but one side must be flat. (in most cases)


    Considering these types of systems, and the piles of others just like them, appear to be assembled and not engineered it's not a surprise that you come to learn "it's got issues with rigidity". Are there no simple metrics these vendors can publish to help inform consumers? It's their job for heaven's sakes!
    They're selling dreams. Name another product where the manufacturer informs the public that their product is inferior to the competition?

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Here's my Bulls Head sign. I was only using pine, but I did have the feed rate at 100 ipm (cause I wasn't paying attention), came out pretty good, ran a piece of MDO at 120 ipm cause why not... came out pretty good as well, but I think the glue layer caused the bit to deflect a little. I think the machine should probably run at 60 ipm on this sort of stuff and it would do fine in most wood.

    Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-vs160403-001-jpg Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-img_20160402_192142107-jpg

    Cutting Video can be seen here:


    Will try again @60 some mdf or something to see if does better.



  6. #46

    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Nice looking sign Grumpy.

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpygeek View Post
    Here's my Bulls Head sign. I was only using pine, but I did have the feed rate at 100 ipm (cause I wasn't paying attention), came out pretty good, ran a piece of MDO at 120 ipm cause why not... came out pretty good as well, but I think the glue layer caused the bit to deflect a little. I think the machine should probably run at 60 ipm on this sort of stuff and it would do fine in most wood.



    Cutting Video can be seen here:


    Will try again @60 some mdf or something to see if does better.




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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    On a budget a conversion can take a lot of beating, after getting interested in CNC I decided first off to buy and convert a mini mill capable of handling a bit of steel as well as Aluminium, Wood, Plastics so purchased a Seig X1 Super LP super and set about a conversion with a bit of experience in 3d Printers Laser cutters/engravers it took me 12 hours start to finish and has been used succesfully since for stainless and mild steel, aluminium, acrylic, MDF, PLY, and is currently being used to build something with larger area. Conversion was 3 Axis TB6560 Driver Controller Board 1/16Microstep, 12-36V, 1.5A-3A,
    3 57BYGH56-401A Single-Shaft Stepper Motors 1.26Nm/175oz-in 2.8A, 24V 10A power supply with a few short pieces of 2020 an old PC case 2 Stepper motor mounts, 2 GT2 pulleys & 200mm closed belt , 2 8mm couplings. using mill itself to prepare parts.

    Total cost £580 for the mill new delivered with a few collets endmills and chuck.
    Total cost for rest £100 from Aliexpress, plus a few odds and ends cable etc.

    For a total of £680 or £700 max to allow odds I already had I reckon the machine although limited to 330 x 150 with 200mm plus on Z axis gives me more bang for my buck than anything else I have seen

    It is limited by its 5000rpm 500w brushless motor and size but can manage Stainless (just about) Mild Steel I cut my T_nuts and made a few tools, Stainless I have cut a few 12mm Bars keyways/flats for connecting etc, Aluminium it eats for breakfast, Acrylic and Timber 5000rpm not ideal but enough and it doubles as a capable drill press. I think considering price is around that of a 3020 piece of chinese junk maybe a 3040 with double the base area 1/2 the height and probably 1/10th of the ability, it would be tough to beat value for money and it is a cheap cinese machine at the end of the day but it works well.

    Modifications to machine are minimal I only drilled a few holes in some cast everything else is ready and could go back to fully manual in about an Hour doubt I have even voided the warranty.

    What do you think.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-img_0619-jpg   Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-img_0618-jpg  


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    I'm still a major proponent of wood construction, but I take a bit more of a high tech approach.
    Pics here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-wo...ml#post1168468
    Finished reading your thread and a couple of referenced links. Good stuff. Thank you. I think I've run into every problem you described including trying to get the CNC model to use whole number dimensions when working with metric and standard materials. Parametric modeling doesn't make the task any easier if design intent hasn't already taken this issue into consideration. Really appreciate the references to West Systems. That reference is a gold mine of information when trying to secure fasteners into wood.

    Finally learned some rudimentary static analysis. If I understand correctly, the attached results suggest that aluminum and steel have a similar deflection, at least within the ballpark, when using 30in x 30in x 18mm material and 500lbs of force distributed at the surface. MDF is two orders of magnitude worse. A good MDF torsion structure can close that gap. I may not have chosen the correct bonding model so the MDF may perform better than indicated. MDF data from here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/solidw...olidworks.html

    Looking at the 8020 site shows that extruded aluminum has modulus of elasticity at 70,326.5 N/Sq. mm which is similar to aluminum plate so I assume they would have similar deflection. The upshot, AFAIK is that MDF can be made as rigid as aluminum extrusion through the use of good structure. The structure is likely to be bulky in comparison but the material should not be dismissed because it's out of fashion. Also, I am skeptical of the T-slot fastening system compared to alternatives that have more thread engagement. Not an expert but had to attempt some analysis to get past the overblown marketing in the "hobby" CNC space. Hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-mdf-jpg   Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-aluminum-png   Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-steel1020-jpg   Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-torsion4-jpg  

    Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-torsion6-png  


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Are you looking at the numbers or the colour and apparent (visual) distortion?
    To compare different models / materials you have to look at the numbers. The colour / distortion are not proportional, just to show where things are best / worst.

    A uniform force is the wrong model really.

    Steel is ~3x stiffer than aluminium (in the same section). Your numbers confirm this.

    If you are not used to looking at scientific notation, I suggest changing the settings so you are looking at decimal notation (ie 0.001mm rather than 1e-3)

    Your numbers:
    Alu 0.09671mm max
    Steel 0.03435mm max
    Flat MDF 2.453mm max (that is 25 times worse than aluminium, and 71 times worse than steel.)
    6" MDF 0.02795mm max.

    To actually model this, you will need to use a more representative load. It would be best to actually model the MDF torsion box, as it is not the same as a solid. Rib spacing will have an impact. The smaller the area the force is applied to, the more rib spacing will come in to play.

    (Apologies if I have misunderstood your post and you already appreciate these things, but they are common mistakes with FEA).



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by pippin88 View Post
    Apologies if I have misunderstood your post and you already appreciate these things, but they are common mistakes with FEA.
    I'm not going take offense. Thank you for taking the time.

    I supplied max deflection as the main point of comparison for the analysis. The reason for not being too specific is because the model is idealized and not going to be representative of the real world. It should be useful for ballpark comparison of materials under the same idealized conditions (i.e., fixing the material along two edges and then applying a uniform force along the top surface). Hopefully these measurements provide some guidance towards building a structure that meets the overall goals.

    Towards that end a major issue is having accurate materials data, an accurate model of the materials, and using the information correctly. Manufactured wood products supply different numbers for perpendicular and parallel properties and that is presenting a major problem for me. I have to change the material depending on the direction of applied force. Makes me feel that there is something I'm missing and the reason why I'm being careful with how I apply load and interpret the results.

    A bit confused why you suggest testing a torsion box as that is exactly what the last two models show. And more tellingly, at least to me, is that they show the MDF torsion structure having comparable deflection to steel and aluminum under those idealized conditions. That was a surprise.

    Your suggestion of a more representative, smaller area of force is something I intend to pursue as more structure and complexity is added to the model. I assume the holly grail is to build up to a model where force is applied by motors and the spindle ... mostly the spindle. Not there yet.

    Last edited by volvox311; 04-10-2016 at 10:31 AM. Reason: to too two 2


  11. #51
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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Wow. Beautiful!

    What are you going to use to seal?

    This is prolly the simplest and most affordable solution. I can see why so many MDF machines are built.



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    I seal everything with epoxy prior to painting. It makes painting MDF 100x easier.

    This pic is an MDF base for a jointer I'm building. It's a butt joint, with a routed chamfer, so you're looking at the edge of the MDF. Sealed with epoxy, sand, and two coats of hammered spray paint.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-mdf_paint-jpg  
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Nice job. So I take it that the epoxy must soak a ways into the MDF? That would certainly make it resistant to moisture. With MDF, a 8x8 gantry beam is quite affordable and unsurpassed in rigidity, per $ spent.

    The paint you chose makes it look industrial. What color?



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Not so much onto the face.but it'll soak a lot into the edges. One heavy coat is enough, though. When it cures, and you sand it, it get's glass smooth and feels like plastic.

    The paint is Rustoleum deep blue hammered. It looks more blue in person. They don't make that color anymore. I only have 1/2 can left.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    The paint is Rustoleum deep blue hammered. It looks more blue in person. They don't make that color anymore. I only have 1/2 can left.
    Heh. I like the hammered metallic look.

    Quote Originally Posted by pippin88 View Post
    To compare different models / materials you have to look at the numbers.
    dmalicky is trying to coach people through the math and analysis http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn...cad-posts.html and http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn...05508-cnc.html. What a brilliant contribution. From post #36 of the first link dmalicky summarizes as follows:

    In a real CNC, there are about 10 components that contribute to the total (aggregate) deflection-at-the-cutter and the stiffness-at-the-cutter:
    1. Spindle and Tool
    2. Z Car
    3. Z Car Linear Bearings & Rails: the xls calculates this
    4. Gantry Car
    5. Gantry Car Linear Bearings & Rails: the xls calculates this, too
    6. Gantry Tube: usually hard to calculate without a computer model like above
    7. Gantry Uprights/Risers/Legs
    8. Gantry Feet Bearings & Rails: a strategic design will cause these to have little cutter deflection compared to the other linear bearings.
    9. Long Frame Tubes that support the long rails
    10. The rest of the Frame, Bed, and Spoilboard
    11. Workpiece: hmm, well that's 1 more than 10 components. The spot where the cutter contacts the work piece is actually the reference point for cutter deflections. An equal and opposite force of 100 lb is applied to the workpiece, and it deflects, too, but since it's not part of the machine I assume it is rigid. So we're back to 10 components.

    For a target total stiffness-at-cutter, there are some posts in the archives on that. Summarized:
    Typical CNC machining center: 50,000 - 150,000 lb/in 404 Not Found
    Efficient steel cutting: 60,000 lb/in http://www.cnczone.com/forums/mechan...tml#post916569
    Efficient aluminum cutting: 20,000+ lb/in (~1/3 of steel, based on modulus)
    Efficient wood cutting: 4,000+ lb/in (~1/5 of aluminum, based on modulus)

    I think these metrics are needed for any machine you intend to purchase or build. Without them how exactly do you know what you're getting? What is the best upgrade path? Even this low end competition needs some form of analysis and measurement otherwise what exactly is being built and what is it good for? From my perspective this information and learning process is more valuable than the end result. For my own project I'm currently studying isotropic and orthotropic material models and how they apply to FEA analysis. Hopefully the FEA analysis leads to an estimation of total stiffness-at-cutter.



  16. #56

    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis_Cannell View Post
    On a budget a conversion can take a lot of beating, after getting interested in CNC I decided first off to buy and convert a mini mill capable of handling a bit of steel as well as Aluminium, Wood, Plastics so purchased a Seig X1 Super LP super and set about a conversion with a bit of experience in 3d Printers Laser cutters/engravers it took me 12 hours start to finish and has been used succesfully since for stainless and mild steel, aluminium, acrylic, MDF, PLY, and is currently being used to build something with larger area. Conversion was 3 Axis TB6560 Driver Controller Board 1/16Microstep, 12-36V, 1.5A-3A,
    3 57BYGH56-401A Single-Shaft Stepper Motors 1.26Nm/175oz-in 2.8A, 24V 10A power supply with a few short pieces of 2020 an old PC case 2 Stepper motor mounts, 2 GT2 pulleys & 200mm closed belt , 2 8mm couplings. using mill itself to prepare parts.

    Total cost £580 for the mill new delivered with a few collets endmills and chuck.
    Total cost for rest £100 from Aliexpress, plus a few odds and ends cable etc.

    For a total of £680 or £700 max to allow odds I already had I reckon the machine although limited to 330 x 150 with 200mm plus on Z axis gives me more bang for my buck than anything else I have seen

    It is limited by its 5000rpm 500w brushless motor and size but can manage Stainless (just about) Mild Steel I cut my T_nuts and made a few tools, Stainless I have cut a few 12mm Bars keyways/flats for connecting etc, Aluminium it eats for breakfast, Acrylic and Timber 5000rpm not ideal but enough and it doubles as a capable drill press. I think considering price is around that of a 3020 piece of chinese junk maybe a 3040 with double the base area 1/2 the height and probably 1/10th of the ability, it would be tough to beat value for money and it is a cheap cinese machine at the end of the day but it works well.

    Modifications to machine are minimal I only drilled a few holes in some cast everything else is ready and could go back to fully manual in about an Hour doubt I have even voided the warranty.

    What do you think.
    This thread seems to have gone to sleep.

    This mill conversion is a great way to get maximum capability for minimum £££, assuming you don't need to route large sheets of wood. It will certainly help with making parts for a larger router!

    I didn't see any mention of ballscrews, so how did you deal with backlash on the acme thread leadscrews?



  17. #57
    e97
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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Reviving this as I'm curious as well about the state of DIY vs BUY in 2018H2.

    X6-200LUSB is US$2,199.00 - says .0025 mm/step resolution and 0.05mm position accuracy
    Shapeoko 3 ~ US$1200 - doesnt mention resolution or position accuracy

    is it possible to build a CNC as good as/surpassing X6-200LUSB for ~US$1000?



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    I would say that you can build one for that price. Or at least they can with volume production. The difference is probably their profit margin.
    I won't say that you cannot build one for 1K, but it would require some excellent deals on Ebay for precision parts and extrusions and well as electronics. I'd say you would have to work hard at it to keep to the budget that low. Sweat equity costs time too and everyone knows, time is money.

    Lee


  19. #59

    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    I built mine for around $1.200. Cutting area about 24X36 and made out of MDF. I bought Acme lead screws, and purchased motors and drivers from Steppermotoronline. Controller is an Arduino Uno. I bought components as I got the $$ and built it over about a 6 month period I think. Not sure of the resolution...it's way more accurate than I need to cut out electric guitar parts!

    Quote Originally Posted by e97 View Post
    Reviving this as I'm curious as well about the state of DIY vs BUY in 2018H2.

    X6-200LUSB is US$2,199.00 - says .0025 mm/step resolution and 0.05mm position accuracy
    Shapeoko 3 ~ US$1200 - doesnt mention resolution or position accuracy

    is it possible to build a CNC as good as/surpassing X6-200LUSB for ~US$1000?




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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    New here ( I think I was around here 10 years ago but I forget the username). I've been mulling over a 2.5 axis 1/4 sheet PKM. Well - not really 2.5 axis, more like 2 axis + plunge. I've been intrigued by PKM's ever since I saw a Cartesian Parallel machine, and I liked that the sliding axes can be free running and all precision is constrained to rotary joints. I picked 2ft x 4ft as a target size as I'm space constrained, lower costs, and it's big enough to do a neck through bass guitar (not a burning project goal, just a reasonable sounding upper size limit based on my interests).



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