Wall Panel Relief

[Parabolicsecan]

Hello All,
Newbie to the forum and I am currently researching the ability of a DIY CNC machine to produce intricate designs like what is in the attached image. All of the examples I have seen thus far of CNCs in action, using a combination of V-Bit for carving/relief and designs from ArtCAM software, produce an end product of a nice replication of the 3d design within the framework of the stock panel itself, not removed or separated. Is it possible for a DIY CNC to produce a ‘rococoesqe’ product such as the wall panel in the image with the background stock removed ?


Thanks.

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[ger21]

A link would have been better, as it's a bit hard to see.

It's certainly possible, but there are issues that you'll probably run into. Small intricate pieces like that will have a tendency to break while being cut, depending on the material and size of tooling. Holding the piece in place while cutting may also be problematic.

[Parabolicsecan]

Thank you for the reply. Here is a link to the 3d design. antique boiserie panel wather 3ds
The material would more than likely be MDF. I have also considered building a 4'x8' machine or purchasing a recommended one in order to
relief carve the design as one piece, painting it white, then routing an overlay template on a thinner piece of stock to cover it while applying the
finish to the ornamental pieces. Very much in the exploratory phase at this point and the purchase/build would be initially just for this project.
I would also imagine the Tool Mapping would take a considerable amount of time and practice to develop for this type of project.

Thanks Again.

[awerby]

Are you building a replica of Versailles? As Ger points out, something like this will be pretty delicate once you've carved it. I doubt that MDF would be the best choice of material, especially if you plan to gild it, but if you do it, it would be best to leave it all attached to the base panel, rather than cutting it free, which is how it appears. Not all DIY builds will be up to this, but it's certainly possible to build something that would be.

[ger21]

The chances of routing that out of MDF would be slim to none, imo. Any material would be a serious challenge.

You're only real chance would be to leave a thin skin (.03-.05") to hold everything together, and then clean it up by hand.

MDF typically does not hold detail well, unless you use a high quality, high density version. Even then it might be problematic.

Is your intention to produce and sell these? I don't know what size you're looking at, but these could take upwards of 10-20 hours to machine these.

[Parabolicsecan]

I planned to design my living room with these boiserie panels that replicate Versailles initially and possibly offer the panels as products depending on my level of success. However, it does sound like collective expertise suggests that it may not be feasible. Not looking to spend more than 5k on a machine right now, DIY or assembled and was hoping a machine in that range could handle it. 10-20 hrs! didnt think it would take that long!

Thanks again everyone for the feedback, much appreciated.

[Devastator]

You might get away with it in high density pvc. If you are doing big sheets like 48X96 you could be looking at 20 to 40 hours machine time. It is doable but like everything comes at a cost.

[wizard]

I planned to design my living room with these boiserie panels that replicate Versailles initially and possibly offer the panels as products depending on my level of success.

Nothing is impossible the impossible just costs more.

However, it does sound like collective expertise suggests that it may not be feasible.

Well MDF is completely out of the question as in thing section like that it is very weak! Possibly a very high quality plywood would do the trick. The material isn't as big of a problem as is holding the work piece for the machining. Work holding is where you will have to innovate to do this successfully on a CNC router. Not having anything more than a picture to go on, are the forms 3D or something that can be realized on a panel with a 3 axis machine?

The approach I would investigate would be to bond rough cut "frames" to a substrate with a thermal set glue, wax or resin. In know in the optical industry it isn't uncommon at all to bond work pieces to tooling, chucks and the like. Obviously you want to use a "glue" that will release at a reasonably cool temperature to avoid damaging the wood when heating for release.

Not looking to spend more than 5k on a machine right now, DIY or assembled and was hoping a machine in that range could handle it. 10-20 hrs! didnt think it would take that long!

You should be able to do a DIY machine of high enough quality for the work, in that price range. Depending upon what you ultimately build and your resources you might hit a price point of 3500 - 4000. You might be able to save some machine time by carefully rough cutting prior to applying the piece to the CNC.

Thanks again everyone for the feedback, much appreciated.

Wether or not this is possible is almost directly related to how much time and money you are willing to invest in experimenting. You might find that the low temp glue example above simply won't work at all. I don't want to discourage you because innovation happens when people struggle finding new ways to do something. On the other hand you need to be aware that the road you are on will be a difficult one.

[Devastator]

In know in the optical industry it isn't uncommon at all to bond work pieces to tooling, chucks and the like. Obviously you want to use a "glue" that will release at a reasonably cool temperature to avoid damaging the wood when heating for release.

I've done optical lab work for almost 30 years. We use a blocking wax called freebond. Prior to that we used blocking alloy that melted at 117 degrees F.

[Parabolicsecan]

Nothing is impossible the impossible just costs more.

Well MDF is completely out of the question as in thing section like that it is very weak! Possibly a very high quality plywood would do the trick. The material isn't as big of a problem as is holding the work piece for the machining. Work holding is where you will have to innovate to do this successfully on a CNC router. Not having anything more than a picture to go on, are the forms 3D or something that can be realized on a panel with a 3 axis machine?

The approach I would investigate would be to bond rough cut "frames" to a substrate with a thermal set glue, wax or resin. In know in the optical industry it isn't uncommon at all to bond work pieces to tooling, chucks and the like. Obviously you want to use a "glue" that will release at a reasonably cool temperature to avoid damaging the wood when heating for release.

You should be able to do a DIY machine of high enough quality for the work, in that price range. Depending upon what you ultimately build and your resources you might hit a price point of 3500 - 4000. You might be able to save some machine time by carefully rough cutting prior to applying the piece to the CNC.


Wether or not this is possible is almost directly related to how much time and money you are willing to invest in experimenting. You might find that the low temp glue example above simply won't work at all. I don't want to discourage you because innovation happens when people struggle finding new ways to do something. On the other hand you need to be aware that the road you are on will be a difficult one.

The ornamental forms are 3d and stand up and out from the base. I am still researching the capabilities of a 3 axis cnc machine to reproduce this from a 3d model. Just for clarification, when you suggest rough cut frames, do you mean cutting the work piece into smaller parts and using thermal set glue to facilitate work holding?

I am looking at either building a version of the JoesCNC Evo within the suggested price range if possible or a standard 4x8 CNC from CNCROUTERPARTS. Full disclosure, I have no experience with woodworking for artistic creations and I am attracted to the ability to build a machine that can bring ideas to life using CAM,gcode and the right bits. I don't have the skill set to rough cut those ornamental designs (with elevation) and would hope the CNC could get me close to a product that I could put finishing touches on.

[Parabolicsecan]

Thanks for the suggestion. That would come at a significant cost per panel as the high density PVC at a depth needed for elevation (at least 0.5) comes in at a couple of hundred bucks per sheet. If it get's the job done though then that is what I will use!!

[Devastator]

Thanks for the suggestion. That would come at a significant cost per panel as the high density PVC at a depth needed for elevation (at least 0.5) comes in at a couple of hundred bucks per sheet. If it get's the job done though then that is what I will use!!

Welcome to the sign makers world.

[wizard]

The ornamental forms are 3d and stand up and out from the base. I am still researching the capabilities of a 3 axis cnc machine to reproduce this from a 3d model. Just for clarification, when you suggest rough cut frames, do you mean cutting the work piece into smaller parts and using thermal set glue to facilitate work holding?

I think we have a communications issue here, not sure. What I mean by 3D: is there undercutting or can the parts be cut from a flat panel with a straight bit?

As for rough cut I mean just that, frames that are partially cut out to reduce time on the router. In other words instead of gluing a pig sheet of whatever to the router table you instead assemble a bunch of sticks of whatever that gets you 50% of the way there. In other words a rough cut frame that gets machined on the router to final dimensions.

The reasons why you might go with w rough cut solution are many but in a nut shell it should save you considerable time and materials. You also aren't glueing a massive panel to the table.

To think of it another way imagine a shop building engines. The bulk parts of the engine are cast in iron or aluminum and then mounted into a machine for machining. The CNC machine in this case takes parts to final dimensions often leaving the build of the casting in its natural state.

The difference in your case is that you will be machining 100% of the rough cut frame.

I am looking at either building a version of the JoesCNC Evo within the suggested price range if possible or a standard 4x8 CNC from CNCROUTERPARTS.

Well I urge you to read carefully as many threads as you can in these forums to get an idea about how specific machines perform.

Full disclosure, I have no experience with woodworking for artistic creations and I am attracted to the ability to build a machine that can bring ideas to life using CAM,gcode and the right bits.

So are many of us. What you need to understand though is that the project you are taking on here will be a tough one. I'm not even sure you can get the results you want. You may find that there is no good "glueing" solution to keep the thin parts in place while machining. This could lead to the need for supplemental clamping or just say to hell with it.

Honestly I wouldn't build a machine just to screw around with this specific project. Mainly because it is a gamble my pocket book can't afford.

I don't have the skill set to rough cut those ornamental designs (with elevation)

We most definetly have different ideas about what rough cut means in this context. If you can't rough cut a blank for this task I'm pretty sure a CNC won't help. Understand that by a rough cut I mean a blank that avoid mounting one huge sheet of whatever on the router. The idea is to save you money, time and difficulty by creating close to dimension blanks out of suitable strips of lumber. I'm not suggesting that you roughly carve the pieces yourself.

and would hope the CNC could get me close to a product that I could put finishing touches on.

A CNC can and frankly does such day and day out with simpler objects. Your challenge here is to do something with parts that will be very difficult to hold in place due to their thin nature. This will be as much of a challenge as doing the CAD/CAM or the machine build. It the greater machining would odd sized or flimsy parts are often held in place with a series of automatic clamps that are programmed to turn out of place as the cutter comes around. That is great for a production environment but hardly something that can be done easily on a home built CNC with home built controls. Not too mention that wood doesn't take kindly to such clamping.

[awerby]

Welcome to the sign makers world.

Sign makers also use high density polyurethane; it cuts nicely, although it's not cheap either. Look for "Butterboard". Once you've got a master carved, it might make sense to pull a mold from it, and cast all the duplicates you want, rather than have to carve each one. Casting them in glass-reinforced plaster would be a lot cheaper and quicker.

[RossMosh]

Thanks for the suggestion. That would come at a significant cost per panel as the high density PVC at a depth needed for elevation (at least 0.5) comes in at a couple of hundred bucks per sheet. If it get's the job done though then that is what I will use!!

You can buy 1/2" PVC from Home Depot for $80. Veranda HP 1/2 in. x 48 in. x 8 ft. White PVC Trim-H120AWS6 - The Home Depot Would I recommend it for this? Probably not. I'd use Medex MDF over PVC.

Sign makers also use high density polyurethane; it cuts nicely, although it's not cheap either. Look for "Butterboard". Once you've got a master carved, it might make sense to pull a mold from it, and cast all the duplicates you want, rather than have to carve each one. Casting them in glass-reinforced plaster would be a lot cheaper and quicker.

I 100% agree with this post. I've never done the mold process but I know with 100% certainty it's the best way forward with this project.

[ger21]

I also agree with the mold making part. Carving a mold would be far easier than trying to carve that part, and you'd only have to do it once. Although with the learning curve, expect to do it several times.

[aarggh]

I do a lot of similar stuff but on a much smaller, and in my opinion, achievable scale on my machine, and I can agree with everyone else the amount of hours it takes to machine stuff like that is mind boggling, add self built or hobby grade machine into the mix and the times will likely blow further out in most cases. And the better the finish the smaller the routing stepover or overlap required, as well as the smaller the bits required, all greatly increasing the machining times.

Aside from the mold making suggestion which would be far, far better, High Density Polyurethane is an absolute dream to machine if you do need to go the routing option. But as others have suggested, the thinner pieces will still be an issue regardless and the HDP may need to be bonded to a sheet of thin ply before machining.

Here in OZ a 2400mm x 1200mm x 20mm HDP sheet tends to run anywhere from $200-$400 depending on supply, so it's incredibly expensive but you can make it go a long way.

cheers, Ian

[victorofga]

counting on you showed and you want to make in 4x8 feet size, one sheet can make 2 panel..
because you can part ti up to vertical and horizontal parts..

for router, check on jcut and salecnc..
for 5K you can get a 4x8 router..
true you have about 1500-2000 additional cost on import..

moldmaking good idea, but it will be affordable if you can use gypsum..