Sherline headstock on CNC Router XYZ?

[Zeppelin1007]

hey guys.


Has anybody had any experience with using a sherline milling head on a CNC router XYZ table? I get low rpm and hi torque. Is it worth it? Would i be able to do woods and such or would i just switch back to the router motor?

My goal is to be able to deal with 6061 aluminium better. I currently can cut it with my 2HP router, but, its obnoxious...plus i end up having to scrap 1 out of 4 parts...its simply the wrong tool for the job.

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[alan_3301]

Many people have success with cutting aluminum with a router. I'd try to figure out what is wrong before going that route.
What kind of machine do you have? What Bit are you using? and what spindle speed, and machine feed / depth of cuts have you tried?

[Zeppelin1007]

Its basically an FLA100 machine.

425oz-in Stepper motors...unfortunately theyre the big 6.8mH motors at 3A. Gecko G540, switching PSU (Soon to be torroid)

Using a 2 flute spiral upcut endmill, 1/4", at 30ipm at 0.05" depth of cut. Spray WD40 as needed.

The part im cutting has 7 holes in it. First operation i do is chuck up a 1/4 drill, and have it just barely put a dimple into the metal. F0.25. And that works ok. Once that is done, i manually drill a bigger hole in the dead center of the dimple, and screw it down to the table...Which the dead center part doesn't always work either..probably need some sort of other tool to do this.. Then i zero my Z on the end mill.

Ive come to these speeds after much experimentation.

Itll cut fine for a few parts, then for some reason itll gum up. Just yesterday, did 3 no problem. After everyone i clean the heck out of the whole machine...fourth one got about 1/8 down on the profiile and totally gummed up the bit, froze, etc. Its like itll randomly not clear the chips.

Now if this was wood id crank out 100 of em without a single worry. Ive cut white oak, black walnut, some unknown almost black wood lol. Without issue. And i have cut alu before, but, never did a bigger run like this.

I did pickup a ton of random small end mills from an industrial surplus out here. All varying from 3/32-3/16. 2 flute, 3 flute, 4 flute, etc..Literally, you pay by the pound.. Some have a really tight twist, some are really drawn out...curious if any of these would be better to use?

[alan_3301]

What is your rpm?

I have had good luck with onsrud 65-025 single flute cutter, 0.080 DOC 12k rpms and 25-35ipm. this was a slotting cut. Make absolutely sure you are clearing the chips out after each pass, you don;t want to recut chips at all or this will absolutely lead to a built up edge, and gumming of the cutter.

I ended up dropping that bit and didnt want to pay the $46 for a new one, so I have been using a home depot freud 1/4" carbide upspiral bit. at $20 it's not so bad. meant for wood but works fine on aluminum.
With that bit I do around 15k rpms and 50 ipm, and around 0.080 DOC

I have also used a chinese 1 flute carbide 6mm end mill, but with a 32mm LOC, i only run 0.04" DOC. I use that one about 18K rpms and 35 IPM.

Whatever you do, just go make sure you have around 0.002 inches per tooth feedrate for roughing, and 0.001" per tooth for finishing.
And make absolutely sure you are blowing or vacuuming the chips out of the cut.

With an outer profile or open pocket, the chips usually fly far away from the part, with no babysitting needed.
On a inner pocket or slot cut, though, the chips fall back into the pocket or slot, so you must remove them.

[Zeppelin1007]

hi alan,

im guessing im around 18-20k rpm. If i back it off any slower it gets ready to stall.

As a buddy of mine pointed out, wd40 is a solvent. Probably isnt doing much for heat transfer.

It does usually fling chips...hot and far...Guess i need to be more vigilant about the removal.

How are you handling your Z? Plunging? Ramping?

[alan_3301]

I do a spiral down ramp or plunge off the part.
WD40 works well for me, just blow out all the chips each time around.

[ger21]

Take shallower cuts at higher feedrates, and use a 1 flute "O" flute bit. You won't have much success at 20,000 rpm.
You can get a Super PID speed control that'll give you more power, down to 5000 rpm. But you still may need to take shallower cuts. .05 in aluminum is pretty aggressive for a router.

[nlancaster]

I routinely take .07 cuts in aluminum at 50ipm with a Onsrud 65-025 at 24000RPM on a CRP4848. Works great and then I come back for a full depth, i have done upto .5 inch deep clean-up cut that removes about .002 from the finished surface.
Very slight surface marks from teh machine, super smooth to the finger.

[wizard]

The other problem to point out here is that the Sherline headstock comes from a miniature machining platform. It isn't like the headstock would add a lot of robustness. Sherline does have other spindle assemblies available but I have no experience with them.

[Zeppelin1007]

I do like this superPID suggestion as per Ger.

Im ok with taking shallower cuts, but, SuperPID cutting down on noise is a HUGE plus for me. Right now i can be as loud as i want, but, I should be moving in the future, and I'm sure most neighborhoods wont like a guy running his machine at 4am.

i was looking at the cheapo Chinese spindles, or, getting a VFD from a supplier at work and a spindle, but, my breaker box is a Federal Pacific and I'm not hooking up 220 until that suckers replaced.

damn 50 ipm at .07?

Im ok with the runtimes taking alittle longer. I'm more concerned with getting accurate success over and over. I do runs of 100 simple signs here and there and if i have a few reject parts, its due to my own stupidity. I just may pull the trigger on the super PID if itll help my machining aluminium cause. I assume id still need more of a milling head to do steel?

Now for wood, whats say, 10k rpm do for my noise versus my ipm speeds?

Actually while we're at it, say i had to surface engrave some stainless tags. I was thinking diamond drag, but would i be able to go deeper with say a 30 degree carbide V bit and a super PID?

Man...if i do this im going to have to finally commission this big steel cabinet i have for my electronics. Heck i'll mount my darn PLC in there while I'm at it.

Thanks guys!

[wizard]

I do like this superPID suggestion as per Ger.

Im ok with taking shallower cuts, but, SuperPID cutting down on noise is a HUGE plus for me. Right now i can be as loud as i want, but, I should be moving in the future, and I'm sure most neighborhoods wont like a guy running his machine at 4am.

If noise will be an issue I'd suggest looking into an Water cooled spindle block. Routers by their nature are loud. Either way up you don't loose all the noise, the noise from the actual cutting is significant and hard to reduce. Your best bet is to enclose the machine. Enclosing the machine has a side benefit of making dust management a bit easier.

i was looking at the cheapo Chinese spindles, or, getting a VFD from a supplier at work and a spindle, but, my breaker box is a Federal Pacific and I'm not hooking up 220 until that suckers replaced.

A water cooled Chinese spindle should be much better noise wise. If you are moving replacing the breaker box doesn't make sense though adding a 220 VAC breaker might make sense. The other option is it see if an existing 220 VAC outlet exists in the house or shop.

damn 50 ipm at .07?

Im ok with the runtimes taking alittle longer. I'm more concerned with getting accurate success over and over. I do runs of 100 simple signs here and there and if i have a few reject parts, its due to my own stupidity. I just may pull the trigger on the super PID if itll help my machining aluminium cause. I assume id still need more of a milling head to do steel?

Honestly from the sounds of things your aluminum machine ping is more that trivial once in a blue moon work. Given that I wouldn't go the Super PID route at all. I'd look for a decent water cooled Chinese spindle with good torque at the lower speeds.

Now for wood, whats say, 10k rpm do for my noise versus my ipm speeds?

Actually while we're at it, say i had to surface engrave some stainless tags. I was thinking diamond drag, but would i be able to go deeper with say a 30 degree carbide V bit and a super PID?

Man...if i do this im going to have to finally commission this big steel cabinet i have for my electronics. Heck i'll mount my darn PLC in there while I'm at it.

Thanks guys!

[alan_3301]

From what I understand, the super-pid has chinese spindle/vfd's beat hands down for low speed torque.
If you ran that spindle with a vector drive vfd it would be a lot better below 12,000 rpms.

[Zeppelin1007]

The hangup on the fuse box/220 line is, theres a line run from the garage to the box, but its not connected, nor do i have a breaker for it. Its a Federal Pacific box which wont past any home inspection. They have a habbit of arcing or welding the breakers. Ive seen it first hand when i flip em, big ole spark. Box has to go lol.

Darn boxes are a fire hazard, you can't even find breakers that fit them anymore.

Im gonna do some cutting today at shallower depths and see if i can get this small order finished. Based on how it goes today will probably determine what i do next equipment wise.

Obviously the noise of cutting the material, yeah, id have to build an enclosure. But anythings got to be better than this thing running full blast and whining the entire time. When i do 3D carving, itd be nice to have something much lower power for the ball nose finishing cycles since it takes so long and has such a small step over. Ive been getting more and more of those to the point im thinking of upgrading my Y to ball screw, since thats the axis i use to do the slow back and fourth finishing.

There was some spindle i saw at a tool show. It was square, did not require a vfd, was 120Vac, and was so quiet i could talk to the people around me while it ran. I can't for the life of me remember who made the whole machine, but, i was impressed by the spindle. It was talll, wasn't a little DC motor that i can recall.

[Zeppelin1007]

Well now im getting agitated. Everything gums up after a few passes. Im sitting right there with a damn dust collector so i know its rubbing too much. 1 more end mill gone. Atleast i buy them by the lb and not a piece.

anyways.

tell me guys. Would the super PID let me use standard mills?

Im figuring now i'll buy a specialty bit to finish this job up.

[bhurts]

If your buying tools by the pound there is a good chance there used and not right for your situation. For aluminum never ever use a 4 flute and on a router not 3 either unless you're feeding very fast. 2 or 1 is your best bet. Buy tools designed for the material and rpms available to you.

Ben

[louieatienza]

Well now im getting agitated. Everything gums up after a few passes. Im sitting right there with a damn dust collector so i know its rubbing too much. 1 more end mill gone. Atleast i buy them by the lb and not a piece.

anyways.

tell me guys. Would the super PID let me use standard mills?

Im figuring now i'll buy a specialty bit to finish this job up.

SuperPID will help, and your router will run way quieter. It's no excuse for cheap bits. You got what you paid for.

I created a thread a while back on bits and endmills, which is stickied to the top of the forum. Parameters and videos included. Your bits are gumming up from heat. Some aluminum just happens to gim up more than others. If you can't lower spindle speed then you must increase feedrate. I'm assuming this is a slotting/profiling operation? Sometimes the best thing is to step in and down with each pass to prevent rubbing. Which likely is the cause of your bit galling. You just have to ride herd with WD-40 and a brush. Check the tram of your router and run out. TiN coated bits help a lot with gummy aluminum. With a 1/4" bit I like to run 6000rpm at 32ipm PER FLUTE, .125" depth pocketing and .063" profiling.

[TTalma]

I have found that using rubbing alcohol on aluminum works much better than WD40. I use a spray bottle to squirt it on. I use the wizard on this page to calculate my feed and speed. I'm using standard 2 flute milling bits. I have had great luck milling aluminum since doing this. It takes surprisingly little alcohol to get good results.

I also clear chips as best I can I find this helps as well.

The problem with the alcohol is you have to babysit it. This isn't an issue for me since I don't do a lot with aluminum. But I have heard of people using it in a mister, if you want to walk away.