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Thread: Spindle Idea

  1. #361
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    Wow I didn't see this thread before...

    I was working on the idea for a tougher, lighter "Dremel" tool, OR a milling spindle.

    So far I've run into two notable problems: one, these BLDC motors are almost all designed for low voltages. It's hard to get a supply that provides like 40A @ 12v, and the wiring gauge required is awkward. PWM to reduce the power from a higher voltage source doesn't work well with higher ratios (big technical electrical thing there).

    Two, for the Dremel-type handtool, getting low runout is a problem. There are no "shaft extenders" or machinist-type collets systems in this size that I could find. First off Dremel's collet system is horribly misdesigned on multiple fronts; it's not a matter of machining accuracy. Runout is BAD even for hand use. I found Proxxon collets WERE much better designed (3-jaw not 4, hardened steel, and long/deep chamfers), however, as of yet I'm still unable to make a low-runout spindle.

    The primary problem seems to be that the collet's orientation is set by the nut. The nut is of course placed by threads, which can orient all over the place. I thought the Proxxon collets were different, but once I got the first attempt of a motor shaft off the lathe, I saw they were not. Also creating threads with a die was clearly an inaccurate process- sure, it tightened nicely. But the center of the threads, this the nut, thus the collet, thus the tool are macroscopically NOT coaxial with the shaft. Several degrees off. Want to get a lathe threading kit here.

    I had considered getting a Dremel/Wecheer handpiece (normally used with a flex cable) and simply thrown a BLDC motor on back. However, this didn't give me the design flexibility to make the form I ultimately wanted, although I may do it anyways just to get something working.

    Note this- the smaller the bearing, the easier it is to get high RPM.

    Also check out BLDC boat motors. SOME HAVE WATER JACKETS! And/or you can get water-cooling jackets for them.



  2. #362
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    First off, hello everyone. I've been a long time lurker and finally decided to register on the forums. I have built a 3D printer (a RepRap) and now have the CNC bug. I'm trying to hobble together a PCB mill using junk parts (just to make it a challenge) and I stumbled across this thread. I'm going to be using an RC brushless motor for my setup. Now that the introductions are over, on to the topic at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by MechanoMan View Post
    So far I've run into two notable problems: one, these BLDC motors are almost all designed for low voltages. It's hard to get a supply that provides like 40A @ 12v, and the wiring gauge required is awkward. PWM to reduce the power from a higher voltage source doesn't work well with higher ratios (big technical electrical thing there).
    Here is a thought, why not use a computer power supply? A lot of the high end computer power supplies are capable of supplying such amperages. Most of them have active PFC and are designed around extended periods of use. It is a trivial matter to jumper them on. All you need is a paper clip and a junk hard drive to partially load the 5v and 12v rails while the main motor is off.

    Here is an example of one that can supply 60A on the 12v rail for ~$100



  3. #363
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    The supply may be rated @ 60A, but you'd need like 6ga wire to carry the current, unless it's got high-temp silicone insulation, in which case the wire's still gonna get really hot. That's some REALLY thick wire for a hand tool or moving-spindle. Simply interfacing it with the ESC PCB- or getting PCB traces which can realistically handle that current- is problematic.

    6A @ 120v is much, much more practical, but I can't find readily available cheap, powerful BLDC with that kv rating. There ARE ones which are designed for more like 24v, which is a better idea. Half the current.

    But here's what I may want to do. The Taig has that headstock with the T-slot on the sides, right?

    Well, for milling aluminum, I could use the regular head. When doing PCB engraving, or whatever that requires high speed/low torque and only light side loading, pull the bit out of the Taig collet, bolt a light high-speed spindle on the side, and spin away at 30K-40k rpm or whatever I need.

    At first I thought that meant my workbox would be shorter, but actually no, it's just offset. With a matrix workplate, you'd just side the workplate over a bit to place the work area under the spindle. It's all still there!



  4. #364
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    agreed, trying to get necessary watts from 12V would result in a lot of current. 24-30V would give us a much better range of options. BLDC motors are also rated in kV (rpm per volt unloaded) so you would also want to pick a motor with a kV and voltage range that would correspond to our desire milling rpms.

    My competition motors pull a max of 75A at 38V (2850 watts) and I only use 12ga silicone shielded wires from the battery to the ESC (controller). The wires from the battery (10S lipo) are barely warm under load. The wires from the ESC to the motor are 14-16ga but they are only carrying 1/3 the load at any given time.

    Don



  5. #365
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    I started another thread for BLDC calcs and detailed, but necessary, reasoning behind this-and-that:
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn...s_spindle.html



  6. #366
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    delete



  7. #367
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    Red face Can DIY routers drill and tap?

    Im getting ready to build a CNC Router but my question is Is there a spindle that will support Drilling and Tapping? And is there is specific spindle I can use with a specific collet set? Please help me. Or any info would help me. THANKS!



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    LMS Spindle Cartridge...?
    A little while ago I was searching the Little Machine Shop site for "Spindle" and found this combination in their "Replacement Parts --> 3503 CNC Mills (KX3)" section.
    Somebody here have tried LMS spindle. What is the use of the gear?



  9. #369
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    Have you selected a spindle yet?



  10. #370
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    Hi there.
    I've build an CNC for milling PCB. I've made a spindle with a RC motor + ESC and an ER11 collet shank, by replacing the motor's shaft directly with the ER shank.
    For PCB miling this works fine, little to no strenght will be required from the motor/bearings.
    But now I would like to be able to mill alluminium blocks (maybe to generate my next CNC) and I need a much stronger Spindle.

    My ideia was to pull this off with an other RC motor (a 2Kw), an ER16 collet shank and some gearing system to reduce speed and gain torque.

    As any one experienced with those cheap ebay timing pulleys and belts (5$-10$ each) (will they hold the torque required?)

    Thank's in advanced.

    Last edited by Paciente8159; 04-26-2012 at 12:43 PM. Reason: Forgot to thank


  11. #371
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    Hi and welcome to the forum. I haven't done much CNCing lately so wait for others to comment as they'll like have a better suggestion.

    If your aluminum cutting will be casual, or perhaps you want to just build a better CNC machine, I would strap a wood router to your exiting machine. It will be the easiest and most economical path as long as it's a temporary one.

    I've seen Chinese watercooled spindles on eBay that come complete with VFD controller and everything for a couple 100 dollars.

    JR



  12. #372
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    I've seen those and also air colled. But they don't cost 100$. More like 250$ plus shipping ($50) plus my costums and their taste for large packages (lolol) (+23%).
    If the RC + pulley system worked it could be done with maybe 150$ (or less).
    I'm just not shure if those cheap pulleys/belts can handle (they look like they are made from alluminia or some weak material).
    Here is a pulley exemple:
    XL Type 0.43" Width Timing Belt Pulley 10 Tooth 1/5" Pitch | eBay

    By aplying a gear reduction factor of 3:1 or something in that range the 2Kw motor would spin more easily and the stress on the motor would be less (less current and less heat). Even if I had to make a couple of pauses bettwen passes while cutting an alluminium block would be fair.



  13. #373
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    There's a great deal on a KAVO spindle & controller on eBay right now:

    Bargain on KAVO spindle



  14. #374
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    Default Tiag Mill Head Good/Bad

    Hey Guys,

    I am hoping that some people still follow this thread because this thread has been amazing and i am hoping you guys and answer some questions for me. I have the an opportunity to get a Tiag Mill Head with motor and everything for around $200 with shipping and everything like this picture http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/ta...ock_ER16_1.jpg It would come ER 16 Collets

    so this leads to my questions

    Question #1:
    Is this spindle something if i bolt to my cnc i am going to be happy with? or should i look for higher quality one?

    Question #2:
    For the $200 I get a 30 dollar 1/5th HP 1750 RPM Motor Output Which translates to 500-5000 RPM Spindle Speed. Or I can opt to have 1/4 HP 3400 RPM Motor Output continuous duty which translate to 1000-10,000 RPM for $175 instead of the $30 which brings my total price up to 326.


    Machine Info:

    I have gantry Table Currently 4ft by 6ft with 850 Oz Steppers for Every Axis, and Currently I am running a Dewalt 618 Router. I use it sometimes for aluminum but don't ruin it by using it all the time. I am wondering if the First Motor (1/5th HP) will be enough to cut aluminum and plastics and then switch back to my router for higher speed Setups. I was considering making my own but you can't beat a complete setup for $200. I would spend that that in time materials making my own. As a side note i am not concerned about mounting i am very capable of making a bracket to mount the motor.

    Thanks For any Input

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spindle Idea-taig_mill_headstock_er16_1-jpg  


  15. #375
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    Hi.
    Quote Originally Posted by metricengr View Post
    Hyou can't beat a complete setup for $200. I would spend that that in time materials making my own. As a side note i am not concerned about mounting i am very capable of making a bracket to mount the motor.
    I think you hit it right on there. It's a great price for a spindle. That said, you just can't beat this one for a bit more money: 1.5KW WATER-COOLE MILLING AND GRINDING SPINDLE MOTOR WITH INVERTER DRIVE VFD b6 | eBay. It's a brand new, 1.5KW (2 HP), liquid cooled, ER11 spindle complete with VFD, shipped from CA. You can just bolt it on and retire your router. The VFD alone is worth that much. I'm tempted to pick up one to upgrade my setup.

    JR



  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRoque View Post
    Hi.


    I think you hit it right on there. It's a great price for a spindle. That said, you just can't beat this one for a bit more money: 1.5KW WATER-COOLE MILLING AND GRINDING SPINDLE MOTOR WITH INVERTER DRIVE VFD b6 | eBay. It's a brand new, 1.5KW (2 HP), liquid cooled, ER11 spindle complete with VFD, shipped from CA. You can just bolt it on and retire your router. The VFD alone is worth that much. I'm tempted to pick up one to upgrade my setup.

    JR
    I have seen those and i am just not a huge fan of such a small collet size and i am after lower RPM's then that. I am not saying those aren't awesome. a Side note 133 dollars for shipping are you kidding me it better be wrapped with gold foil lol



  17. #377
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    I have never heard anyone complain about the quality of the Taig spindles. The power, well, I can see some desire for more powerful but the limitation of the tooling size by the collet makes that kind of a moot point.

    My uncensored views and CNC Router planning: http://reinventingcnc.blogspot.com/


  18. #378
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    I ended up buying the Tiag Mill Spindle to use as my Spindle and Boy i am sure happy It moves so fast now and is quiet! Here check it out. I am doing this so i can mill aluminum to build a 3d Print Head based off the Rockcliff Idea. I have got the majority of parts from CNCRouterParts and have been very happy with their customer service, I would be happy recommend them to anyone! I would be happy to answer any question anyone has i am running a chain and acme rod
    drive system.









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    Default Re: Spindle Idea

    Hello everybody!

    I've started building my first CNC Mill, with very limited budged and plan to mill mostly aluminum. I saw that people were using wood routers for cutting aluminum so i gave it a try. So far, so good for testing. Thing is, router I got (Mastermax 1800W MER-2106) have variable speed in range of 8000 to 23500rpm (knob with 6 positions). Now came to an idea to change speed from Mach3 and not manually by turning the knob. Simplest solution for me was to use relays, 6 of them for each position. Input from Mach3 to breakout board, to relay 1 would activate spindle at lowest speed, rest would just change speed. Is this possible at all?



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    Default Re: Spindle Idea

    I know this is an old thread, but I think this question fits here. Does anyone have any experience with the newer .4kw brushless spindles like these?

    CNC 0.4KW Brushless Spindle Motor ER11 & Mach3 PWM Controller & Mount + 480W PSU

    I have searched but can't seem to find any real life usage information other than people discussing how to connect the wiring and getting Mach3 to drive the controller. I am looking for something like this to use on smaller jobs. My Dewalt 611 works fine, but it is really noisy, just looking for a quieter solution I can use on my long running 3D carving projects.

    Thanks
    Don

    Last edited by atwooddon; 07-20-2015 at 01:37 PM. Reason: typo


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