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Thread: 15" OI TT1800SY

  1. #61
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    Default Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    Sorry but was on the fore front of Tech for 35 yrs and push its limits even in Robotics so i am all for tech that actually works and seen more systems come and go and fail and money wasted time after time ----------But hey hats off yous are triers even if its in so many directions ------Maybe try and see if a company can make an actual front door that doesn't fall off its barn door wheels before 50,000 Cycles would be better money spent ---------------Double linear ways and balls screw driven slider doors we had installed didn't stop !!-----------Maybe while you can tell the company that Axis should always travel in a minus direction from home position not center of chuck that we had to change on every Doosan lathe from the factory we bought to normal procedures -Why you ask ?-------------If its minus then your geometric is a minus and if some clown or machine malfunctions deletes if the machine moves backwards on its first move and alarms out provided the programmer knows enough to have a first value positive 1!---------So much to learn

    Last edited by lshingleton; 05-09-2021 at 04:02 AM.


  2. #62
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    Default Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    Quote Originally Posted by lshingleton View Post
    so i am all for tech that actually works
    So Am I. Tool load monitoring worked on the machine Doosan replaced with this less advanced current one. Either Doosan will fix it, or people will just know that they are going to start moving backwards with future release machines. Everything on the specification list should work. The machine should be tested and debugged before sale. Stuff like thermal compensation where one of the temp sensors monitors outside casting air temperature and responds to air currents that have nothing to do with the casting temperature, need to be addressed.

    Without fixing the thermal comp, there is no good excuse for moving to the I series control and breaking tool load monitoring in the first place. We've had to shut that feature off in the September 2020 TT1800SY II and in one of the 2020 Puma 2100SY II's. It's flawed. It's embarrassing, and customers shouldn't be paying for porked up component build outs, just to be forced to shut off spec features on the floor for lack of function. - If the one sensor hangs the whole system they should expedite a sheet metal or plastic box to keep the air current off the one sensor so the whole system doesn't have to be shut off to get the machine to stop jumping around in diameter. The problem isn't having a problem. It's denying the problem and refusing to fix it. That goes to lack of pride / lack of dedication to customers, lack of commitment to excellence. Between tool failures for jumping around in X during bores and drilling ops, and TLM issues, we had to double staff on second shift. It's more expensive to run the machines now. When tools start breaking and machines need extra attention guys get strung out and the operation can't stop, so when our employee feedback is negative we have to add redundant staffing to prepare for and try to prevent contingencies.

    By the way, we also have Doosan mills with tool setters that work great. We set the entire magazine to the setter, probe the parts and the parts get cut accurately without blend issues, and probes fault themselves if the parts aren't loaded right. Without a tool setter and probe, everyone would have to be a toolmaker to run good parts. The primary issue with needing toolmakers (in lieu of technology) to run good parts is 90% of those guys sit down at an operation or settup interview and attempt to change the position to job estimator or foreman, or some really cake desk pilot job, wasting everyone's time in the interview. AKA they don't want to actually make the process run, so it doesn't matter if they could theoretically do the work and stand in for the technology, because they will refuse to do the work. The technology rather, compensates for prima donnas without work ethic by allowing industry to operate with guys that actually work for a living. Someone smart in the background sets up the process, but he's at a desk so he's willing to do that job. The one smart guy keeps you from needing to have 40 interviews with toolmakers to find 4 that want to settup and run machines which is what toolmakers are supposed to be good at and intended for.

    Last edited by Green0; 05-10-2021 at 12:44 PM.


  3. #63
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    Default Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    We ran into an issue where motion of the upper turret caused a crash by moving beyond the commanded position in rapid with G05.1 Q0 (AICC turned off). It appeared to be the software airbag function moving the turret .25" -X, then .500" +X in diameter.

    We had commanded the tool to X1.0 over a .75" diameter, and then shifted Y+.96" and then came down over the part. The tool slammed into the .750" diameter offset not center like it was rounding the corner, and then walked up the side of the .750 diameter part on the Y then X subsequent moves. During the X axis position violation the control didn't show X motion from the commanded point, so that was where we got the impression this is a software airbag function over-riding the control temporarily. The code had previously run at 25% without issue (no collision) in prove out, so at 100% rapid it became an issue.

    We turned on G05.1 Q1 R2, and made the first move X2.0 and it stopped happening although there still appeared to be a very much smaller X-,X+ hesitation at that area. The oddity is that we turn off G05.1 for all turning, and rapid to within .06" of the diameter (.030) physical clearance on qualified diameters all the time. So adding Y appeared to cause this function to be implemented. (Y is rarely used in turning rapid approaches, though we do use it for offset tools in puma 2100 machines).

    I didn't believe it, and the code was good, so I assumed the eppinger radial holder had loosened initially, loaded a second tool and it crashed again before we added G05.1 Q1 R2, and totally revised our theory on why it happened.

    This code had formerly run in this job in a 31I TT 1800SY II but that machine didn't have MCS, so may have defaulted to G05.1 Q1 R5 automatically because that's what the logic without MCS enabled does.

    I would like to have the upper turret X airbag turned off at this point or this problem resolved, because it demonstrates good previously proven code (also re-proven at 25% in this new machine type) can crash the machine inexplicably.



  4. #64
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    Default Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    We had what was probably the final visit from Doosan today related to this issue.

    They were able to:

    1. get zero in the TLM table to be recognized as stopping an axis or spindle from being actively monitored. (preventing an opposing spindle from being able to be taught erroneously and requiring us to drop monitoring on that tool to run the machine).

    2. get the machine to teach BOTH paths simultaneously in dual path operation. (this eliminated situations where some tools could not be taught and monitored, and took a 6-8 hour partial settup task of teaching monitoring down to 5-10 minutes with all tools properly settup for monitoring.)

    3. get the machine to drop coolant and the active spindle when a break value was achieved and feed hold commanded. (this prevents situations where the machine runs for 30-40 minutes without cutting, but makes decoy noise and washes the window as if it is running)

    4. get the machine to recognize manual entries without teaching a tool. (this eliminated short cut time tools from being unable to be monitored, where some fixed timer in the software was not exceeded and TLM teach failed to create values in the table for a tool).

    5. appeared to eliminate M264 and M265 from needing to be programmed. (The machine now appears to know when it is working on the right or left side of the cabinet with the upper or lower path, so it no longer is confused as to which path is working which side of the machine).

    6. populate a feed hold, spindle and coolant stop and warning message in the control when the path reaches a wait code, and the opposite path has hit a break value and shut down the spindle and coolant on that side of the machine. (This prevents the machine from appearing to be working while it is actually held in a static condition for the other path tool load monitoring break event).


    We ran three programs in each machine against this solution and worked many different conditional TLM break tests (upper on main lower on sub with lower and upper break, upper on sub lower on main with upper and lower break, live milling break contingencies, crosses, transfers, etc), and if this solution holds solid (which it appears that it should), this I series 15" machine is now a better machine than the 31I machine that it replaced, because it has the ability to support Look ahead, G05.1 fanuc AICC II smoothing, and also Machining condition select (R1 through R10), So it can work faster in high speed trochoidal milling, support G05.1 Q0 (OFF) for turning, and operate with the ease of the predecessor's 31I control Tool load monitoring. Thermal comp is still iffy, so that can't be the factor that pushes the I series TT1800SY into a more advanced category. It has to be lower cost, with higher program run speed obtained through AICC II and MCS, without losing run time to TLM settup, and coolant and spindles failing to shut off when break values happen.

    The Korean technician said the developmental work we did yesterday and today is going into production machines today in Korea. So three months from now, those machines should be reaching the USA for sale.

    Unfortunately for us, our sales dropped 70% from May to June. If this goalpost had been hit last month we would have been buying one machine with no idea this drop in sales was imminent. If this had happened 3 months ago, we would be buying 2 machines. Today we have to wait, because we don't know where demand is moving for our industry. Not a big deal since the machines settup like this won't be here for 3-4 months anyway.

    As a sidebar, we also had one issue in all of our Puma 2100SY II's fixed today. A tool was making quick roughing passes and TLM wasn't catching this tool. We guessed this was timer related. We communicated this to the technician and he found tables of zero values for TLM timer settings. He believed these zeros resorted to software default values. He plugged timer values into these boxes and this tool became responsive to wear and break values from TLM. In other words the TLM timer settings were important to allowing the TLM functions to be responsive rapidly for quick, low time in cut tools.

    We appreciate the help from Doosan to resolve the issue. Better late than never is a true statement. We hope sales look up, and allow us to buy a machine this fall. These changes are huge. They relate to spindle optimization in operation, usability, and fitness for a diversity of settup machinist employees. Without these resolutions, very few people were properly equipped to settup these machines (no-one efficiently for time), and that is no longer true with these issues resolved.

    Last edited by Green0; 06-16-2021 at 07:20 PM.


  5. #65
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    Default Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    Good morning Green0,

    I'm glad to hear that persistence and skill paid off.

    It sounds as though the time you were delayed caused a pause to a purchase commitment, which actually worked out in your favor, as well as the end result being that Doosan's Technician was able to improve a FANUC product well beyond what FANUC themselves were capable of.

    All in all, if it had been done any other way...it seems like it would have had undesirable issues... sometimes Divine Intervention appears to occur around us.

    As always, contact us, if any assistance is needed.
    (though it is quicker to use our email to get assistance than to comment in an un-affiliated forum, and hope it reaches someone... my contact information is easily found in the Footer of all my posts.)

    Thanx!

    No longer with Doosan Machine Tools America
    darrylhardt@gmail.com


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    Default Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    Quote Originally Posted by dhardt View Post
    Good morning Green0,

    I'm glad to hear that persistence and skill paid off.

    It sounds as though the time you were delayed caused a pause to a purchase commitment, which actually worked out in your favor, as well as the end result being that Doosan's Technician was able to improve a FANUC product well beyond what FANUC themselves were capable of.

    All in all, if it had been done any other way...it seems like it would have had undesirable issues... sometimes Divine Intervention appears to occur around us.

    As always, contact us, if any assistance is needed.
    (though it is quicker to use our email to get assistance than to comment in an un-affiliated forum, and hope it reaches someone... my contact information is easily found in the Footer of all my posts.)

    Thanx!
    I just saw this. This problem was resolved and that's great. It did cost us several hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost time. For 9 months when we couldn't make anything fast enough, it delayed ability to purchase 2 additional TT1800SY II's that we probably could have paid for, or nearly paid for if this problem were never manifested on us. The only lucky delay was the last 1-2 months of the 9, keeping me from buying late when it wouldn't make a positive impact before the downturn.

    We did trade in a working Mazak on a DNM5700S a couple weeks ago. Doosan can't supply the mill till November. So again it is costing some money to be a Doosan customer. It would be great if Doosan would get smooth and stop costing customers money for their loyalty. That lost time is like $46000 in profit (not gross) on two shifts for 3 months.

    The Ellison guys are our friends. They can't help it that Doosan can't ship on time.

    If I had those two extra TT1800SY II's right now I would be prooving out a new prototype product, and pushing it to production, making more money that would eventually go back at Ellison and Doosan, so nobody won. We all lost in this 9 month deal. The future profit for all of us is 9+ months further out.



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