High School CNC Help!


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  1. #1
    Member AndrewOBWS's Avatar
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    Default High School CNC Help!

    Hi All,

    I am a high school woodshop teacher in Central New Jersey. We are looking to purchase a CNC for our shop/classroom. Our budget is 20K and must include everything we need to get started. I’ve done a bunch of research, but the more research I do, the less confident I get with the decision.

    There are 2 things that are very important 1) Quality of the machine. The machine must be built to last and be able to stand up to the wear and tear of daily student abuse. 2) Customer support. I’ve never used a CNC machine before, and I’m going to need all the help I can get.

    I’ve narrowed it down to 3 different Machines all would come with Vetric Aspire.

    1) Legacy Maverick 36” x 60” $19, 561 water cooled 3HP Spindle Comes with t Track and Clamp set and a Router Bit Set

    2) Shopsabre 23 30”x 40” $18,234 air cooled 2.2 HP spindle, Laser Engraver, Vacuum hold down system, bit set, Phenolic table top upgrade

    3) Camaster Stinger SR-24 25” x 48” $15,765 air cooled 2.27 HP spindle, Laser Engraver, Fast Tool Change kit w/ Laser cross hair, vacuum hold down system

    When I put the Legacy up against the other 2 it looks like a much better machine, bigger cutting area, water cooled spindle vs. air cooled, etc. However, I am concerned about their post purchase assistance. If anyone has any input, opinions, or resources, it would be greatly appreciated.

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    Member routalot's Avatar
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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    No disrespect intended but I think you need to get yourself to a workshop that uses CNC routers for a day or two before making any decision.Doesn't matter what brand they run,just see what is involved in booting the machine,homing it,holding the work down,establishing the tool length and the part datum.Make sure you have a full grasp of all of these matters and then learn how to stop a program that looks like its going wrong and get the tool out of the job.

    Then spend a day or two playing with Aspire,if thats going to be your software of choice.I believe there is a trial version that can be downloaded.Get comfortable with the process of creating vectors,ensuring that those which need to be joined are in fact joined and then move on to creating toolpaths.You need to be able to select the tools to do the job and describe them in the tool library if they aren't the default tools.This will involve setting speeds and feeds and if you get it wrong there could be smoke or broken tools.Slow down the simulation and be certain that the machine will do what you want it to.Find the right post processor and use it to create the program and then decide on how you transfer it to the machine.

    Once you understand all of these facets of machine operation,you can apply your knowledge to the purchasing decision.Beware of people who have bought a particular brand of machine and who tell you how great it is unless they can show evidence of having made a thorough comparison with other machines. Merely having a machine in the garage that does stuff they couldn't do previously seems great,but is there another machine that could have been greater?Simply by coming here and asking the question you have demonstrated a desire to progress along the path.Ask detailed questions about each and every operation that you will have considered and don't try teaching any of it until you are absolutely certain that the outcome of pushing the green button will be what was intended.And don't forget to tell the students that a machine doesn't know how to tell the difference between flesh and wood.



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    Member he1957's Avatar
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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    Very sensible advice from routalot.

    If you think you know and understand something, teach it and you'll soon find the bits you didn't really understand all that well. It's almost impossible to un-teach an error from the first pass :-)

    The bit set that comes with the machine will maybe last about 5 minutes if you are in a steep learning curve so be prepared to spend some money on additional cutters and don't waste your money on more (quantity) cheaper bits because they will not last.

    Safety is a key in such an environment, consider something that may be encloseable in a cabinet to protect from flying debris or possible cutters that break. Having said that also consider perhaps a number of smaller machines to provide more access for more Students and to cover yourselves in case of machine outages. Interchangable parts is also a possibility plus you could also use the machines as part of a "nesting" sequence using locating methods to move jobs between machines for different operations - part of a real-world type usage where an ATC might otherwise be deployed.

    Not a plug for the company but the "Axiom Pro" series machines seem quite solid for their size class. I have no affiliation and no idea of their support but its a good example to look at for some of the comments above. Assuming it is also mass produced for a larger market, parts should be easier to obtain if needed and maybe their user base - check their Forums.

    I went to a School last year that had a Shark machine they had had for a few years that was sitting there idle because the Staff never got comfortable using it. Part of this was the software (vCarve) to create the drawings to generate the G-Code which they didn't (bother to?) learn to start with. Oddly enough, while I was there they advised they were expecting a new Plasma cutting machine quite soon so I wondered how they would get on with that after not making much progress with the somewhat simple Shark machine. I bit my tounge.

    The end part results boils down to the CAD software, drawing the parts then the strategy and order of the tools and their cutting paths and parameters. What I mean as a simple example is cutting a simple ring, the inner "waste" needs to be cut first then the outer cut is done and this aspect needs a decision of how the wanted part is held down as the last cuts are taken. Vacuum (will it hold it?), screws, tabs, skins etc.

    See if the Vendor has a "Training" service to get you up and running as well.

    As routalot says, CNC machines have absolutely no "intelligence" and don't care diddly about Humans or other obstacles ("Safe Z" for a tool change may still have a clamp between last position, tool height and tool change position) :-)

    It's great to see you putting this effort in to be able to do this for your Students.



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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    Hi,
    having no experience in CNC will hamper your decision considerably. Routalot's suggestion about spending some time in an existing CNC workshop is very good
    indeed. I imagine many businesses would be happy to share their experience so that a school can benefit.

    You need to allow money for tools, once students get a hold of it they'll break and blunten them like they're going out of fashion.

    Another possibility that MAYBE within your budget is Automatic Tool Changing. The time involved in changing tools manually is significant and is prone
    to error resulting in yet another broken tool. If you can find a machine that has ATC or can be added to a manual change machine consider it seriously.

    Craig



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    Member machinehop5's Avatar
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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewOBWS View Post
    Our budget is 20K and must include everything we need to get started.
    you meant 200k right?

    ....https://www.harborfreight.com/ Great Idea

    Last edited by machinehop5; 01-23-2020 at 08:57 PM. Reason: missing 0


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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    If you need user forums to help with questions, Camaster is the better choice of those 3. Shopbot is a cheaper built unit, but they used to have an education discount. They also have a good user forum. Shopsabre is a good unit, but no forum for basic questions. Legacy seems to offers a lot, but it's strange that the only post on youtube are from the company.

    Yes, Aspire demo can be downloaded for free and there are TONS of free video's available for training on their software. I'm not sure how many computers can be used for one licence, but I would check on what you will use it for and what is allowed. There are some Aspire "camps" coming up and you may be well served trying to attend one. Vectric has a user forum as well.

    The best advice was, get into a shop running some of these machines and get your hands dirty.

    Ken



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    Member AndrewOBWS's Avatar
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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    I'm doing the best I can. I went to a seminar at and watched someone go through the entire process from creation using Vetric V Carve Pro to milling on an Axiom. I've also have been watching a lot of YouTube videos and "listening in" on Facebook conversations to try and pick up on some stuff. I realize that's not enough, but i'm in a unique situation. I'm a high school teacher, doing my best to go above and beyond for my students. I'm putting in a lot of personal time and money to make the best decision.

    Problem is, in the field of public education, its very difficult to get things like this done. We never know whats coming around the corner. The money is there now and its been allocated, so if I don’t go for it, the opportunity may not present itself again. I have to buy this thing once, if i present the idea again in the future they will say you have one and we don’t have the money right now for an upgrade.

    I’m confident that, over time, that we will be able to produce some cool projects that will teach the students how to operate and understand a CNC. Just need to do my homework. I also need to figure out the best machine for us inside our budget.

    I appreciate all the feedback!



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    Member ger21's Avatar
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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    When I put the Legacy up against the other 2 it looks like a much better machine
    I'd put the Legacy last, by a good margin. They use round linear shafts, which you won't find on any quality machines. They handle much smaller loads than profile rails, and aren't nearly as rigid.

    There website has zero info, but they used to run Mach3, which is obsolete imo. Both Camaster and Shop Sabre use WinCNC, which is a much better control.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Member AndrewOBWS's Avatar
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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by kenrbass View Post
    If you need user forums to help with questions, Camaster is the better choice of those 3. Shopbot is a cheaper built unit, but they used to have an education discount. They also have a good user forum. Shopsabre is a good unit, but no forum for basic questions. Legacy seems to offers a lot, but it's strange that the only post on youtube are from the company.

    Yes, Aspire demo can be downloaded for free and there are TONS of free video's available for training on their software. I'm not sure how many computers can be used for one licence, but I would check on what you will use it for and what is allowed. There are some Aspire "camps" coming up and you may be well served trying to attend one. Vectric has a user forum as well.

    The best advice was, get into a shop running some of these machines and get your hands dirty.

    Ken
    Greatly appreciate this feedback! I have to try and find some Aspire Camps near me this summer.



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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    Loving all this feedback!

    The Legacy looks like a monster of a machine; it has the ability to turn spinals and comes with a water cooled spindle, but I agree the post purchase support looks like an unknown based on their website and youtube. Camaster's forums and user base is exactly what I'm looking for. However I had to submit for a quote online 3 times and call them another 3 just to get a quote. I was scared off, it was a terrible first impression. Shopsabre seems great, but their sales team is a little pushy. Im getting constant emails and phone calls and they are the only ones negatively talking about their competitors.

    Am hoping to learn from the experiences of members of this forum.



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    Member routalot's Avatar
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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    I don't think you need to focus too much on work area.If the principles are understood and implemented its just bigger numbers.Turning with a 4th axis is nothing you need to bother with unless you have the budget for the 4th axis and the CAM package that can post process the desired toolpath.It really is useful to get hold of the trial software and do some virtual machining on your computer.You will see what is meant to be happening and if it isn't what you expect-go back and find out why.Nothing gets broken and knowledge is gained ready for when a machine arrives.It won't impress anybody if there is a nice shiny machine sitting there and nobody knows what to do to make it go.I would suggest a rectangle with rounded corners,some convex,some concave and a pocket or two in the middle.Maybe try adding a name in Vcarve format.It will give you a project to show anybody that asks what the machine can do and the experience will be invaluable.You may encounter such goodies as overlapping vectors and unjoined vectors.

    Good luck with preparing the next generation of creators.



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    Member ger21's Avatar
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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    The Legacy looks like a monster of a machine; ......................... and comes with a water cooled spindle
    Those water cooled spindles are $150-$200. Nothing special about them, they are just cheap Chinese spindles.

    Camaster owners are about as loyal as they come, and they have by far the highest re-sale values.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    Another high school teacher checking in here. Did you consider DB Routers? They are from your home state too. I am currently thinking about getting one of their smaller ATC for my classes. If that happens, it will be my 4th CNC router. I am absolutely thrilled with my current ShopSabre 4896 10 tool ATC that we purchased four or five years ago. But for around $15K for a DB Routers 4 x 4 ATC is worth a second further investigation. For reference our ShopSabre ATC came in at $33K before taxes.

    A teaching buddy of mine in PA recently purchased a DB Router 4x4 ATC CNC system. He was able to get if for under $15K. https://www.dbcncrouters.com/ So far he is very pleased with it. He also has own a ShopBot Buddy; which he gave to another woodworking class/teacher in his high school. Last year he also got Legacy ATC CNC. But like me, the price for a DB Router ATC system is very attractive. That being said, DB Router's website is underwhelming and I believe they have more on their FaceBook page than their website. Nontheless, I am planning to get a quote from them for a new 3 x 4 or 4 x 4 ATC system.

    FYI... Ihave owned a Phoenix CNC, two different ShopBots and my last machine is a ShopSabre 10 tool ATC. Coming from ShopBot's open Support Forum to a more controlled support system was one of my concerns; as I was so used to lurking on ShopBot's support forum to find solutions and to see what others where doing. That being said, I picked ShopSabre over CamMaster for our last CNC after CamMaster dropped the ball on critical pre-purchase technical question. When I have an issue with my ShopSabre (seldom at that), a simple phone call or Facebook User's Group post is answered very quickly to immediately.



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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    Hello Andrew - Good luck with this venture. It's great to support the next gen of Makers. I have trained quite a few people in this area and in industrial robotics. The main hurdle to learn will be the CAD system. CAM is pretty linear so people pick this up very fast. But CAD has so many options and tools its a big curve to take in. Kids pick these things up incredibly fast though. Looking at DB and your budget I'd be tempted to split it into two machines. You will have lots of queuing for a single machine. I wouldn't bother with an ATC, learners crash these alot (tools have to be set and kept set and programmed correctly, it's a complicated layer to learn and crashes take a long time to fix) and I think it's better to teach them how to change and set a tool properly and do jobs tool to tool. Then if they get outside and get keen an ATC will come naturally. This saves $$$ which can be put into other areas.

    You need a smallish robust machine. A big machine rarely gets used fully and has a big footprint. Better to have 2 machines in same space. Big parts can be made in pieces or in register which is a good learning exercise anyway. Good luck... Peter



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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by uffabrew View Post
    Another high school teacher checking in here. Did you consider DB Routers? They are from your home state too. I am currently thinking about getting one of their smaller ATC for my classes. If that happens, it will be my 4th CNC router. I am absolutely thrilled with my current ShopSabre 4896 10 tool ATC that we purchased four or five years ago. But for around $15K for a DB Routers 4 x 4 ATC is worth a second further investigation. For reference our ShopSabre ATC came in at $33K before taxes.

    A teaching buddy of mine in PA recently purchased a DB Router 4x4 ATC CNC system. He was able to get if for under $15K. https://www.dbcncrouters.com/ So far he is very pleased with it. He also has own a ShopBot Buddy; which he gave to another woodworking class/teacher in his high school. Last year he also got Legacy ATC CNC. But like me, the price for a DB Router ATC system is very attractive. That being said, DB Router's website is underwhelming and I believe they have more on their FaceBook page than their website. Nontheless, I am planning to get a quote from them for a new 3 x 4 or 4 x 4 ATC system.

    FYI... Ihave owned a Phoenix CNC, two different ShopBots and my last machine is a ShopSabre 10 tool ATC. Coming from ShopBot's open Support Forum to a more controlled support system was one of my concerns; as I was so used to lurking on ShopBot's support forum to find solutions and to see what others where doing. That being said, I picked ShopSabre over CamMaster for our last CNC after CamMaster dropped the ball on critical pre-purchase technical question. When I have an issue with my ShopSabre (seldom at that), a simple phone call or Facebook User's Group post is answered very quickly to immediately.
    Just remember you get what you pay for the DB machine looks like a poorly designed machine wimpy at best

    The machines you already have you could add a ATC without to much trouble, which would be a good school project, you can get an ATC spindle for around $1700 to $2800 that would suit the machines you have 30 Taper is very common and some 20Taper which are ok for lighter use

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: High School CNC Help!

    Hi Andrew - Talk to DB and say you want 2 machines for $8000 each. Their 24x48" machine would be a good starter size.. You are going to need $1000 for tooling and starter stuff like dust extraction, really good dust extraction, ear protection, CAD systems although fusion 360 would be free to a school.... Then publish the specs here for review. The machine will get roasted and you will be able to ask for adjustments and get great machines and learn heaps. Good Luck. Peter



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