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Thread: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

  1. #21
    Registered trnsfrmr33's Avatar
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    hi iforeman,

    please lemme know if you end up getting that kit and if it works out. I''m finally ready to take the plunge myself, but any advice would be great.

    all my best,
    James



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Quote Originally Posted by matth View Post
    Motors arrived yesterday. Two day shipping from Hong Kong to my door. Can't complain about that.

    Fitted the low backlash 5:1 planetary gearboxes, 2 for the X axis and one for the Y. The Z will be direct drive and then I have one spare servo set for my two machines.

    Attachment 312988
    Attachment 312990
    Matth. What is your opinion of the gearboxes? Are they low backlash? Quality made?

    Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Hi guys. Sorry for not replying sooner. I changed my email address a little while back so I haven't been getting notifications.

    Regarding my experiences with the spindle and the gearboxes I still can't really comment as I haven't got any of it into production yet. The spindle feels good quality and I had played about with it on the bench. The tool change works a treat and the spindle is smooth and quiet. I had to buy the tool holders separately although the price was great. Worth noting that you need a 400hz invertor for these spindles so you can't use a Huanyang invertor and therefor you can't use the RS485 plugin for Mach and must hardwire the controls.

    I haven't used the gearboxes at all yet but they seem well made and very smooth. Just turning by hand I can't feel any backlash at all.

    The reason I haven't progress this yet is that so far this year my new business based on my CNC router has taken off enormously and I had to run out any buy a commercial router to keep up. I grabbed a second user Tekcel V series 8x4 and run it also side my 4x2 DIY router daily.

    I will be completing this project and will post updates as and when.



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    I have done a lot more design work. When I do start on the frame it should come together very fast. Most of the moving pieces are going to be 20mm MIC6 plate cut on the Tekcel.

    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-new-frame-4-jpg



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Time to revive this thread. After another year of using my two current CNC routers daily (an 8x4 Tekcel and my DIY 4x2) I have decided to upgrade this build to a fast and rigid 8x4 build.
    To that end I have been collecting the parts and finalizing the design.
    Cutting of the steel starts next week and I will update this thread with progress.

    The parts I have so far are as follows:
    5.5KW HSD ATC ISO30 Spindle
    4 x 400W Nema 23 Leadshine AC Brushless Servos
    3 x 5:1 low backlash planetary gearboxes
    2 x 4000mm 35mm Linear rails
    2 x 1600mm 25mm Linear rails
    2 x 700mm 20mm Linear rails
    3 x 1400mm Mod1.25 helical racks and pinions (need to order two more)
    1 x 30mm dia 10mm lead ballscrew (270mm travel)
    Approx 2.5 Tons of steel RHS box section
    T5 Timing pulleys
    Limit switches
    Energy chain
    Various electrical parts

    Still required:
    20mm Steel plate
    20mm Aluminium "MIC" plate
    Aluminium box section
    CNC Controller (probably a CSMIO again)
    VFD (10HP 3phase Hyanyang)
    Enclosure

    The main frame is going to be built in two parts, first the sub base which is going to be fully welded and then the top frame.
    The top frame is going to mainly consist of the two main side rails which are 200mmx100mmx12.7 steel RHS. These will be bolted in place at first, allowing me to adjust and shim them for parallelism and co-planer. Then they will be welded and the other cross members added. The rails themselves will be machined with a register for the rails and racks.
    The Gantry will be a piece of 300mmx100mmx10mm steel RHS and will be bolted to steel frames made from RHS and 20mm steel plate (these will be fully machined by me for squareness and parallelism).

    I am building the base and gantry so heavy for a couple of reasons, firstly this machine is designed to engrave and cut full sheets of HDF all day everyday. The Tekcel takes around 8 hours to fully engrave and cutout a full sheet of products. This is because even though it is capable of 15M/min I can only engrave at about 2M/min due to flex and vibration at the cutter at higher speeds. Also the low acceleration slows the engraving down (this is caused my the small 180w DC servos and the flex in the frame).
    My experience with the 400w Leadshine servos is that they can easily create so much acceleration and speed as to easily overcome the strength of a steel frame and cause a lot of vibration.
    So to combat these issues and to fully utilize the power of the servos and gain the speed and stability that I need the frame needs to be very stiff.
    The second reason is that I have the steel so why not.

    The design goals of this build will be to engrave at 5-10M/min, general cutting at 20M/min and rapids of 50M/min (these number have been calculated as possible, reality will be the proof):

    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-8x4_with_scrap_steel_v2-2-jpg
    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-2017-04-24-14-48-19-jpg
    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-2017-06-19-14-58-39-jpg
    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-2017-06-19-14-58-45-jpg
    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-2017-04-25-10-58-28-jpg
    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-2017-04-25-10-58-33-jpg
    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-2017-06-21-12-00-41-jpg



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Quote Originally Posted by matth View Post
    5.5KW HSD ATC ISO30 Spindle
    Is your spindle 380V or 220V?

    Quote Originally Posted by matth View Post

    VFD (10HP 3phase Hyanyang)
    Do you have 3 phase power, or are you going to have your VFD do the phase conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by matth View Post
    The design goals of this build will be to engrave at 5-10M/min, general cutting at 20M/min and rapids of 50M/min (these number have been calculated as possible, reality will be the proof):
    How did you calculate those? What acceleration are you hoping for?

    I think your table is overkill, but as you say, you have the steel, so why not. Have you calculated the weights of your moving parts?

    Looking forward to seeing your progress.



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    The spindle is 380v and I have native 3 phase.

    The gantry is going to weigh somewhere in the region of 200Kg all in, the spindle alone weighs around 25kgs.

    Buried somewhere in the forums is an excel spreadsheet that allows you to calculate the required torque for various setups.
    The acceleration was calculated at 1.67M/sec2 for rapids and 0.67M/sec2 for cutting.
    I will be able to trade top speed for acceleration by changing to a smaller pinion if required. Time will tell, it's hard to visualise acceleration from the numbers.

    The sub frame should be roughed together within the next few weeks and then it's on to the machining of the long rails and cross members (which will be bolted together).



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Just been looking into UCCNC, it does seem like a better solution than Mach3.



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Quote Originally Posted by matth View Post
    Buried somewhere in the forums is an excel spreadsheet that allows you to calculate the required torque for various setups.
    The acceleration was calculated at 1.67M/sec2 for rapids and 0.67M/sec2 for cutting.
    Oh, I didn't realize that. I ended up making my own spreadsheet for calculations. If you remember where you found it, let me know. I wouldn't mind comparing it to what I have made.

    Why would you want your feed acceleration less than your rapids acceleration? I'd think if anything, you'd want them the same, or less for rapids if less motor torque was available in the higher speed range? Was that a typo?

    Also, whether you can input a separate acceleration value for rapids depends on the control software you use. In the past, I had a quick look through a bunch of the user manuals for popular control software.

    Flashcut, WinCNC, and EdingCNC are the only ones I found that have a separate rapid acceleration input, although several other programs had a separate acceleration input for backlash compensation. Are you aware of any others that allow for a separate rapids acceleration input?



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Hi Mat,
    Where did you buy your servo drive and motor from? I tried to open alibaba li jiao control product, but its error, not found ...



  11. #31
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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    My gut feeling is that 20m/min cutting might be asking too much from your 400w servos. My day job is cutting cabinet parts at ±20m/min, and our machine has much larger servos. But it also weighs a lot more than what you're building. But cutting forces can be pretty high at those speeds. Holding your parts down may be more of an issue.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Quote Originally Posted by NIC 77 View Post
    Oh, I didn't realize that. I ended up making my own spreadsheet for calculations. If you remember where you found it, let me know. I wouldn't mind comparing it to what I have made.

    Why would you want your feed acceleration less than your rapids acceleration? I'd think if anything, you'd want them the same, or less for rapids if less motor torque was available in the higher speed range? Was that a typo?

    Also, whether you can input a separate acceleration value for rapids depends on the control software you use. In the past, I had a quick look through a bunch of the user manuals for popular control software.

    Flashcut, WinCNC, and EdingCNC are the only ones I found that have a separate rapid acceleration input, although several other programs had a separate acceleration input for backlash compensation. Are you aware of any others that allow for a separate rapids acceleration input?
    I just did a search for the spreadsheet and couldn't find it. PM if you want a copy.
    The two different accelerations are just how the spreadsheet calculates things. I have just set a single acceleration time and the two numbers are what the SS spits out.
    Regarding motor torque. The leadshines supply full torque all the way to 3000rpm, over this it starts to drop off all the way to zero at 4000rpm. Because of this I never run the servos above 3KRPM so torque can be considered a constant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by asuratman View Post
    Hi Mat,
    Where did you buy your servo drive and motor from? I tried to open alibaba li jiao control product, but its error, not found ...
    Yep, I saw the other day that it looks like they have stopped trading. Plenty of other suppliers though.



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    My gut feeling is that 20m/min cutting might be asking too much from your 400w servos. My day job is cutting cabinet parts at ±20m/min, and our machine has much larger servos. But it also weighs a lot more than what you're building. But cutting forces can be pretty high at those speeds. Holding your parts down may be more of an issue.
    Hi Ger, you are probably correct that 20M will be to fast for any sizable cut but I have to start somewhere with the calcs and the maths says that a 20M/min cut with 200N cutting force and a 2:1 safety margin is within the torque curve of the motors.
    At the moment I don't cut anywhere near that as most of my cuts are with 3-4mm cutters, even when doing bigger stuff I tend to stick with 6mm spiral cutters or 6-8mm compression bits that like to run really fast.
    The important thing to me is the engraving speed, that means high accelerations and lots of stiffness.

    Hold down will be with a 10HP side channel blower and a plenum very much like the Tekcel which works very well with it's own 10hp pump.
    My smaller machine runs a 4hp pump and is rock solid.

    On another note I have been looking at the MB2 you link to on your site. As you know I currently run a CSMIO with Mach3 and your 2010 screenset. But compared to the Tekcel which runs an embedded Tekmov control the CV on Mach is rubbish. Most of the time it doesn't matter but it could be a lot better.
    Because of this I've started to look at UCCNC, the UC300 Ethernet controller and the MB2 (plus your 2017 screenset) all of which together are less than half the price of the CSMIO.
    The reason I went with the CS labs kit on the smaller machine was the differential line drivers and the 24v IO both of which the MB2 can supply.

    How do you find this combination of hardware and software? Also do you have any insights into the ease of setting up a tool change with UCCNC?



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    For anyone that is interested here is an upgrade I made to the vacuum hold down on the 4x2 recently.
    I changed to 2 sheets of 20mm acrylic to make the plenum rather than the MDF I was using before (this worked well but compressed slightly to give an uneven surface).

    The acrylic plenum uses a loose piece of 9mm mdf as a scaraficial spoil / bleed through board:
    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-2017-06-05-14-25-50-jpg
    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-2017-06-05-14-25-54-jpg
    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-2017-06-05-16-25-57-jpg
    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-2017-06-06-09-04-18-jpg

    The Tekcel uses aluminium box section as the bed / plenum and then has a sheet of Foamex board glued down and routed with the same small pockets and holes as above and then has a 9mm mdf floating spoil bleeder board. This work extremely well and is what I will be replicating on the new build.



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Here's the Tekcel, please excuse the temporary water cooling circuit. I had just changed out the terrible Perske VS spindle with a water cooled ER spindle (so much better).
    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-2017-04-19-15-42-24-jpg



  16. #36
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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    How do you find this combination of hardware and software?
    I haven't run machine yet, but I'm very happy with both the hardware and software.
    The MB2 is excellent. It's very simple, with no complicated setup. Just plugin the wires, and go.
    UCCNC is also very good, with excellent support. New features are regularly added. Bug fixes happen quickly. And the developers really listen to the users.
    It also runs much better than Mach3, at least from what I've seen and heard from others. A friend has been using UCCNC for 2-3 years and has seen a drastic difference.
    Most people see faster cycle times, and smoother motion.


    Also do you have any insights into the ease of setting up a tool change with UCCNC?
    If you have a Mach3 macro, then converting it should be fairly simple.
    UCCNC uses C#, which isn't a whole lot different than the VB that Mach3 uses.
    If you can write VB macros in Mach3, then you shouldn't have too much trouble with C# in UCCNC, once you get the basics figured out.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Hi dear i want to make same build now , i am wondering how tick is beam gantry u use , i found now a beam with 250x150x10 mm x1600 and y axys is about 250x150x100mm x2500 , and i think is ok for a 1300x 2300mm .
    Do u use epoxy for leveling the rail bed ?
    Or u machine the beams ?
    Wish u the best .
    Sorry if this is wrong thread i put this questions .



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Quote Originally Posted by matth View Post
    I just did a search for the spreadsheet and couldn't find it. PM if you want a copy.
    The two different accelerations are just how the spreadsheet calculates things. I have just set a single acceleration time and the two numbers are what the SS spits out.
    I think I found it here:

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/linear...culations.html

    It's called linear Motion Calculations V1?

    Is there a V2?

    That spreadsheet doesn't include any of the rotating inertial effects. It was nice of him to do some math and to help others, I like that, and I prefer math over general statements, but I wouldn't put too much faith in the results it gives you, that is assuming that this is the spreadsheet you used.

    You've already bought your parts, so there's no point in hashing it over. I think you will be fine, although exactly what you will be able to achieve is yet to be determined.

    IMO, an acceleration value of 0.67 m/s^2 is quite low for your top cutting speed. That's 0.67/9.81 = 0.07G

    20m/min = 787 in/min At 0.07G it will take over 3 inches to accelerate to your cutting speed, but just off the top of my head I think you'll be able to get much better than that.



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreiir View Post
    Hi dear i want to make same build now , i am wondering how tick is beam gantry u use , i found now a beam with 250x150x10 mm x1600 and y axys is about 250x150x100mm x2500 , and i think is ok for a 1300x 2300mm .
    Do u use epoxy for leveling the rail bed ?
    Or u machine the beams ?
    Wish u the best .
    Sorry if this is wrong thread i put this questions .
    I used the following calculator to run some simple numbers:
    https://www.easycalculation.com/engi...ular-beams.php

    My Gantry tube is 300mmx100mmx10mm and is about 1800mm long with an unsupported length of 1528mm.
    With a point load in the middle of 130lbs I get a total deflection of: 0.000056" which I think is acceptable.

    On the X rails I have used 200mmx100mmx12.7mm tube with a total length of 3250mm but an unsupported length of only 1065mm.
    With a 220lbs load (per side) I get a maximum deflection of: 0.0000076"

    All my critical surfaces will be machined and then bolted and shimmed if required, so there is no need for leveling epoxy.
    Here's a rough diagram for one of the gantry supports, the two faces that register with the linear bearing carriages will be machined and the top face that mates with the underside of the gantry tube will be machined (as will the gantry tube). I will probably add steel dowels at these critical junctions to maintain alignment.

    Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos-support-jpg



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    Default Re: Heavy steel build, ATC, R&P, Servos

    Quote Originally Posted by NIC 77 View Post
    I think I found it here:

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/linear...culations.html

    It's called linear Motion Calculations V1?

    Is there a V2?

    That spreadsheet doesn't include any of the rotating inertial effects. It was nice of him to do some math and to help others, I like that, and I prefer math over general statements, but I wouldn't put too much faith in the results it gives you, that is assuming that this is the spreadsheet you used.

    You've already bought your parts, so there's no point in hashing it over. I think you will be fine, although exactly what you will be able to achieve is yet to be determined.

    IMO, an acceleration value of 0.67 m/s^2 is quite low for your top cutting speed. That's 0.67/9.81 = 0.07G

    20m/min = 787 in/min At 0.07G it will take over 3 inches to accelerate to your cutting speed, but just off the top of my head I think you'll be able to get much better than that.
    Yes, that's the sheet and I agree that there a lot left out, but it's a start. I'm not one to design out every possible detail, If I did i'd never build it. This will be my forth Router so I'm happy to build and get incremental increases in performance.
    I also agree on the acc, i think it's low but I'd rather tune the speed down and the acc up once it's built.
    Worst case is that I upgrade the X axis motors (remember that the servos etc where purchased with the smaller build in mind).
    I do think that once together even if it doesn't hit the design figures it will be a step up from the performance of my Tekcel. And with a cost of £45K plus sale tax for another (non ATC) Tekcel my build will be substantially better value.



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