WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle - Page 4


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Thread: WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle

  1. #61
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    Eric

    It's been a while since I have seen your posts. I am glad to see that you are back making chips. I'm looking forward to following along with your current build. It is good to see you back on the zone.

    Cheers

    Don



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    Widgit,
    Using the above info of 3.14159 in/rev and the desire to have 1500 IPM, your will need 1500/3.14159 =~ 477 RPM of the pinion. Now according to Mariss you base your design on max of 80% of your servo max rpm so using the 4000 rpm figure above again, we have a design value of .8x4000 or 3200 rpm. So your servo to pinion ratio will be 3200/477 ~ 6.7 and you can vary this somewhat base on what you have available to you! Your resolution with then be based on the encoder quadrature value that you use and depending on its placement (end of servo or on pinion).

    Hope this helps.

    Art
    AKA Country Bubba (Older Than Dirt)


  3. #63

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    Hi Don!
    Its good to see your still here too!


    WOW, you guys have given me allot to think about! It looks like I'll have to weigh all this against my project budget, to see which path I take!
    I may not achieve the 1500 IPM but that's OK!

    www.widgitmaster.com
    It's not what you take away, it's what you are left with that counts!


  4. #64
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    If you want to go the simplest route, I'd go with the stepper kit from CNC Router Parts.
    4-Axis DIY Nema 34 Kit | CNCRouterParts

    It's unlikely that you'll see 1500 ipm with steppers. Due to their fixed resolution, the faster you go, the poorer your resolution becomes. So you have to trade some speed to maintain acceptable resolution.
    CNC Router Parts already has done the homework with the reductions, so it's by far the simplest way to go.

    I plan on using AC Servos on my next machine, but the cost will be about double what a good stepper system would be. And they can be a bit more complex.

    Gerry

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  5. #65
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    Im still intrigued by this setup
    http://www.automationtechnologiesinc...que-1128-oz-in would be a direct fit to the 2:1 ratio, and from the chart you would still have well over 400 Oz in. Available at 400+ rpm. 1500 ipm should be possible.

    They are made by leadshine, which has a pretty good reputation.

    Sent from tapatalk



  6. #66

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    Ok, I'm getting a handle on all ths!

    The question on my mind at this time is this:
    Axis Y & A move 9-feet with the full weight of the gantry & the X & Z axis components.
    Axis X moves 49" with the weight of the slide, spindle, & z-motor.
    Axis Z moves the weight of the spindle, linear trucks & ball nut. The Z will have a counterweight spring ! Ball screw is 25mm with 10mm lead / revolution.

    I can see the 1805 oz/in stepper on the Y & A axis.
    The X axis should be a 1200 oz/in?
    But what do I need for the Z, as I would like o make it direct drive!

    All the motors will use the Gecko G203V drivers, and plug into the PMDX breakout board.

    The servo idea was short-lived, as I have zero experience with them and prefer to keep it simple!

    What I would like to do is add the encoders from Automation Technology Inc to their monster steppers if possible! That would give this router a keen edge!

    www.widgitmaster.com
    It's not what you take away, it's what you are left with that counts!


  7. #67

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    I have been working on the CAD file all day, and have solved the problem with mounting the long Rack Gears!
    I plan on welding a 3/4" x 3/4" square steel bar the full length of the tube, and mill a step down the entire length.
    Then I'll drill & tap all the holes to fasten the rack in the corner of the step!

    I guess I'll need to make up a jig so the welder can put the square bar on location prior to tack welding it!

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_000e-jpg  
    www.widgitmaster.com
    It's not what you take away, it's what you are left with that counts!


  8. #68
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    Eric,
    If your going to add encoders, then the setup is not really any different for servos! Your tie the encoders to the Geckos and have a closed loop to that point. The encoders are in quadrature (meaning you get to count 4 edges per pair of lines (A and B)). So if you have a 500 line encoder, that is 2000 counts per rev. So in Mach or whatever, if the encoder is on the servo and you have a 5:1 reduction, you will have 500 x 4 x 5 counts per rev or 10000 counts. If we use the above listed 1" pd pinion, then you will have 3.14159/10000 or 0.0003141590"/step or 3183.1015504888 steps/in.
    Also remember when you use a ratio to set your speed, you will also be increasing the torque provided by the servo to the pinon by the same ratio.

    Art
    AKA Country Bubba (Older Than Dirt)


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    Adding encoders to gecko controlled steppers is anything but simple pretty sure you would have to use Linux cnc or kflop and some custom programming...

    The easiest way to close the loop is the hybrid servos, pretty much plug and play from what I gather.

    I think you should be fine with the same steppers on all axes too, use the pro rack drives from cncrouterparts with the deeper gear ratio.

    if you went with 203v drives, 2 1200 Oz steppers and 2 1805 Oz steppers, the cost would be around $1300, and the 1805 Oz steppers would need to be run at 80%of their max amps due to the 7 amp max of the drive, so they would end up as 1400 Oz motors.

    4 of the hybrid servos would run $1640

    4 DC servos and geckos around $1450

    I honest think the hybrid servos would be the easiest to install out of all 3 systems, and easier to tune with a $7 cable and software. the only real connections you have to make are power, step and direction, everything else is pre terminated.

    WAY too many options these days!

    Sent from tapatalk



  10. #70
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    More info from leadshine http://www.leadshine.com/category.as...servo-products

    If you can buy directly from them it looks like they have drivers that run off of 220v AC directly for the 1133 Oz servos

    Sent from tapatalk



  11. #71
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    960 oz motors should be more than adequate for the rack and pinion. And 640oz would be overkill for the Z axis.

    It's very possible that 1800 oz motors won't run as smooth, and most likely will give a lower top speed, as (generally) the larger the stepper, the slower the max usable rpm.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    960 oz motors should be more than adequate for the rack and pinion. And 640oz would be overkill for the Z axis.

    It's very possible that 1800 oz motors won't run as smooth, and most likely will give a lower top speed, as (generally) the larger the stepper, the slower the max usable rpm.
    Thanks Gerry!
    It will be several weeks before this monster will be ready for motors & the electronics, as I still have allot of steel to cut
    Widgt

    www.widgitmaster.com
    It's not what you take away, it's what you are left with that counts!


  13. #73
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    I agree with Gerry.
    I am not sure exactly what size steppers to get but it is very common to oversize them and loose performance. Case in point many Taig conversions come with 425oz motors and a 24v power supply. Motors are running way below thier proper voltage and then they are also run on a fine pitch screw. Dropping to a 200oz low inductance motor makes the machine run much faster in the rapids and it still has plenty of torque for the cutting.

    On my router for the Z axis I use a 425oz nema 23 with IIRC a 5tpi ball screw, G203V and ~70v and I have run it over 500 ipm. In my never to be humble opinion it is very important to get the Z axis setup correctly. You can loose a tremendous amount of time when drilling holes, especially when peck drilling if the Z rapids are too slow.

    Mike

    Warning: DIY CNC may cause extreme hair loss due to you pulling your hair out.


  14. #74
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    Awesome new build!



  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by rustamd View Post
    Awesome new build!
    Thanks Russ!

    www.widgitmaster.com
    It's not what you take away, it's what you are left with that counts!


  16. #76

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    This afternoon I made a little more progress on this big router frame, first I ground off the welds on the gantry ends. Then I drilled & tapped all the rail mounting holes in the horizontal gantry tubes!

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_078-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_079-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_080-jpg  
    www.widgitmaster.com
    It's not what you take away, it's what you are left with that counts!


  17. #77

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    This morning I made the 4 end plugs for the horizontal gantry tubes, this went fast as they were small
    Then I used my angle grinder with 2" sanding disc's to fillet all the inside edges of the gantry tubes, then I hand ground & fitted the small plugs for each end. Now that's two more pieces for the welder!

    Next I ground a fillet on the inside of the 9-ft long table base tubes, this took much longer as the fillet was deeper and the tubes were bigger!
    Again, I hand fitted the bigger plugs for the long tubes, and hammered them in place!
    Another two pieces ready for the welder!

    So far, the 1/2" x 1/2" 20-pitch rack gears have been ordered from McMaster-Carr, and the 2:1 reduction pinion sets for NEMA34 have been ordered from CNC Router Parts.

    All the gears are arriving this evening, which is perfect! This will allow me to update the CAD file and start another material list for the swing plates & motor mounts!

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_081-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_082-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_083-jpg  
    Last edited by widgitmaster; 06-25-2013 at 02:24 PM. Reason: typos
    www.widgitmaster.com
    It's not what you take away, it's what you are left with that counts!


  18. #78

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    All the liner rails have arrived, and I have no way of cutting them accurately! So I bought a used MILWAUKEE 6176-20 14" Abrasive Cut-Off saw!

    Now those 25mm linear rails are no problem

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-milwaukeechopsaw-jpg  
    www.widgitmaster.com
    It's not what you take away, it's what you are left with that counts!


  19. #79
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    I didn't see what size pinion gear you are using. I tried a 1 inch dia gear and got cogging. Clunk clunk and a lot of backlash. I did some research and came up with needing atleast a 32 tooth pinion to prevent this. After changing to the 32 tooth it is smooth as glass and no more backlash.(my gear is spring loaded to the rack but still got backlash with the smaller gear). As for stepper or servo I guess its usually go with what you know. For me the servos offer a great advantage. Its not just constant torque and resolution. You also get acceleration and the ability to catch back up to position if there is any lag. There is a little more work to setting things up but it is in my opinion not any more difficult to apply. Also a few more days of work are more than made up for by the added security and performance. I won't argue that steppers won't work fine for you because I'm sure they will. I will say that you are making a beautiful industrial quality build. Great work!

    Ben



  20. #80

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    This morning I started on the two weldments that will be the gantry ends, they need to be machined on all three datum surfaces to remove the warping from welding! The first thing I did was remove the vise, and tram the mill's head really good! Then I placed one of the weldments on the table, and propped one end up on 1-2-3 blocks. Then I placed a screw jack under the long end. Next I placed the toe-clamps over the blocks & screw jack, so the clamping pressure does not put strain on the weldment.

    Next I setup a pair of dial-indicators, so that one was on the top & the other was on the long side. After dialing in the weldment so that both indicators stayed at zero when the table moved the full length of the part, I tightened all the toe-clamps. Next I placed a 3/4" diam 4-flute solid carbide end mill in the spindle, and made several light cuts on the outer surface until it was perfectly flat & square. Then I placed the 3" face-mill in the spindle, and made several light cuts on the top of the weldment, until there was 100% surface cleanup! Now the weldment has two perfectly flat & square datum surfaces.

    Now I have to repeat the process on the 2nd weldment, but this one must be a mirror image of the 1st one! Both weldments cleaned up nicely, and now I can do the setups for milling the 3rd datum surface!

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_084-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_085-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_088-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_089-jpg  

    WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_090-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_091-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_092-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_093-jpg  

    WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_094-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_095-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_096-jpg   WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_097-jpg  

    WidgitMaster's Largest Steel Router Table Project 9ft x 5ft x 8" Water Cooled Spindle-9x5_router_098-jpg  
    Last edited by widgitmaster; 06-26-2013 at 06:42 PM. Reason: Added more pics!
    www.widgitmaster.com
    It's not what you take away, it's what you are left with that counts!


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