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  1. #81
    Member ger21's Avatar
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    I mean there's not enough room in the top of the spindle to drill and tap for the larger fittings, as the existing holes are pretty close to the edge, where the water ports are.
    The model I downloaded from UGRA has the center of the fitting 8mm from the edge.
    And if you look at some of the pics from people who have taken them apart, there's a pocket on the back side for an o-ring seal.

    Gerry

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  2. #82
    Registered Falcon69's Avatar
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    Ugra CNC sells two sizes of hoses. One is 3/16" ID and the other is 1/4 ID

    I'm guessing the smaller size is for the 80mm spindle body and the larger size is for the 100mm spindle body.

    I just plan on using a reducer for the spindle. That should be the only restricted area of the water line.



  3. #83
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    If you are using inexpensive pumps, which I think is probably sufficient, it might make sense to have two discrete pumps, one for each spindle, and it would be simple to control each via relay, or even the relay that controls the spindle itself.



  4. #84
    Member JerryBurks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Keling says 20-25gal/hr. I've never seen anything about pressure requirements.
    My concern about pressure drop is in the spindles, not the tubing.
    I read that, too. But when I had the older 1.5kW spindle even with full 60 psi water faucet pressure I could only get 15-20 gpm through. However....it turned out a trickle of 4-5 gpm was fully sufficient to keep it cool. I suppose a typical aquarium or PC cooler pump can do that (pressure goes with the square of the flow rate).

    That said, I have been running the new 2.2 kW water cooled spindle for 8 months now with dust extractor air cooling only (water nipples plugged) under all possible conditions. I found it got never warmer than 30 degrees F above ambient temperature. It is a 1HP Harbor freight extractor and sucks air through an approx. 1" wide annular channel around the spindle. Makes the dust shoe really simple, too and saves the hose, pump, radiator, tank and all that crap.



  5. #85
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    the actual waterway in the steelhousing, so small that really need high pressure to perform 20-25 gallon perhour..
    the original bolting on the head, and the rubber seal migth not designed for high pressure..


    i can talking about myself... for me these things were working..
    when i set over 18K the rpm, motor generate a lot more heat.. also here in georgia temperature even nigthtime around 90 deg...
    thats why summertime need to change water frequent..

    winter temperature lowerby 50-60 deg... theres no way water heating up..

    also my solutions made on base cut back cost.. i just cant find my unlimited visa card :-)

    best regard
    viktor



  6. #86
    Member ger21's Avatar
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    After what seems like a year, back to making parts.

    I've been redesigning all week, to make sure everything would work before I cut into my aluminum.
    I even modeled the hoses and tubes. Good thing, because after I did I saw that I needed to make more changes. The e-chain mount needed to be raised to be able to get the hoses in.

    Tonight I grabbed a piece of 1/4" MIC-6 and cut two blanks 1/8" oversize for the Z carriage back plates. I then put them on the router and drilled 4 1/4" holes to hold them down while machining. (I only ended up using 2, though. The 4 holes will be behind the linear bearing blocks.

    Once bolted down, I did 4 operations. (All were cut dry)
    1) drilled 36 holes with a 1/8" drill bit. The holes are drilled .24 deep, as I don't want epoxy in them when I bond the plywood to the aluminum. All the holes will be used as locating holes and drilled to various sizes on the drill press.
    2) Profile rough pass .003" oversize. 1 flute "O" flute, 10,000 rpm at 60ipm and .015/pass. I could have cut a little deeper, and probably will next time.
    3) finish pass, full depth, same tool as above, but 40ipm.
    4)put a small chamfer with an engraving bit. I thought I had a 90° bit, but it was a 60°, so I just took a small amount off.

    The edge came out pretty nice, considering that I have quite a bit of movement in my Z axis.

    I'm waiting for some West System Surface Prep for the aluminum before bonding it to the plywood, to get a better bond. Hopefully it'll be here tomorrow or Wednesday.

    Because aluminum bonded with epoxy doesn't have great peel strength, I'm adding screws from the aluminum into the plywood from the backside. 13 screws, 10-32x5/8". The screws will be epoxied into the wood, so the plywood can't pull away.

    The spindle "cradles" will be epoxied into dados, and secured with 1-3/4" 10-32 screws. The bottom cradle accepts two pipe fittings, to mount the air coolant lines at the top, and some Loc-Line on the bottom. I got the fittings from McMaster-Carr today, so I can cut those parts out now.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Z²-spindles-jpg   Z²-z_back-007-jpg   Z²-z_back-004-jpg  
    Gerry

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  7. #87
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    Those came out pretty darn good! Already liking the redesign more....



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    Hey man, I just found this thread and youv'e got some cool stuff going on in here. I was wondering what your plans were with two motors? are you going to use one motor as a slave so you can make smaller parts twice as fast?



  9. #89
    Member ger21's Avatar
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    No, two spindles so I don't have to change tools as often.
    One for roughing, one for finishing.
    Or, one for drilling, one for cutting.

    My aluminum prep kit just got here, so I can glue up the parts I cut yesterday in a little while. First, I'm going to route out for the hex nuts for my Z axis rails, and gets those installed, so I can start putting everything together.

    Gerry

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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

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  10. #90
    Member ger21's Avatar
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    Making a little bit of progress.

    Bonded the 1/2" baltic birch to the aluminum plates. Clamped to my table saw top, so they're as flat as I can get them. Also cut the spindle cradle pieces. Everything was then sealed with a coat of epoxy. With baltic birch, the end grain can suck up a lot of paint. The epoxy seals all the end grain really well.

    I noticed that I somehow didn't drill the mounting holes for the upper cradle. Fortunately, their location isn't critical.

    I just need to mount my threaded fittings in the bottom cradles, route the dadoes and assemble them. I'm not going to drill for the dowel nuts until after I attach the cradles, as it will be easier to clamp them to the drill press.

    There is one other thing I'm going to do before assembly. One thing that surprised me is how incredibly small these parts were once I cut them. I'm a little concerned about the strength of the baltic birch where the doel nuts go, as I don't want the bolts for the clamps causing the plywood to split. I'm going to get some 3/4" 8-32 screws, and epoxy them into the plywood on each side of the clamp bolts, in front of the dowel nuts. This will ensure that the plywood won't split.

    I got my 20mm X axis blocks in, and was amazed at how much bigger they are than the 15mm blocks. One 20mm block is about 4x the size of a 15mm block. I've had the Y axis rails and blocks for almost a year now, but haven't taken them out of the package yet.
    Automation Overstock only has 18 of these left, so I wanted to get them before they were gone. Just need to save up another $350 to get my X axis rails.



    I was originally a little concerned about the tight vertical spacing of my Y axis rails, but there won't be any issue with the size of these rails and blocks.

    My original design for the gantry beam was going to sort of a torsion box like tube with 1/2" skins. Internally, I was going to have the 4 corners reinforced with hardwood laminations, and then have a steel tube epoxied in at the top and bottom.

    This was a going to take a lot of time, and I was concerned about the straightness of the steel possibly being an issue.

    So I came up with a much easier solution. Last winter I built a vacuum frame press, and finally put it to use.

    The gantry beam is going to be a box made of panels laminated from 1/4" mdf. The panels will be laminated with plastic resin glue, which gives a very rigid glue line. 1/4" MDF is much harder and more dense than thicker sheets. By laminating them together, I'll have a much more rigid structure.

    The vertical members will be 1" thick and the top and bottom 3 layers.
    I was going to go 5 layers on the verticals, until I realized how heavy this was going to be. I had never used plastic resin glue before, so I did the bottom panel first as a test piece. I found out two things. One, it takes a lot of glue to make these. And two, mixing the glue is a pita. I went and bought a small paint mixer yesterday to mix the glue for the rest of the laminating.

    After I pulled the panel out of the press, I weighed it to see exactly how heavy this was going to be. A 3 ply panel weighs about 15 lbs, so each 8x72" piece of 1/4" MDF weighs 5 lbs. I was originally going to go with 5 layers for the verticals, but figured 4 would be plenty and save 10 lbs.
    Now that I type this, 10 lbs doesn't seem like much.

    As it's drawn right now, the MDF parts will weigh about 70 lbs. Probably 20% will get routed away, bringing the weight down to about 55 lbs.
    Picking up the tube with my Y axis rails and blocks, I estimate the weight of those to be about 30 lbs. I think I read that the spindles are 11lbs each? 3 steppers close to 15 lbs.
    Then probably add another ±50lbs for the Y carriage assembly. Y axis drive system, two Z axis screws, four Z axis rails, eight blocks, the spindle carriages.

    It looks like the gantry will come in at around 175-200lbs. Probably more than I originally thought. Thinking about it, there will probably be 10lbs of screws holding it all together.

    On the plus side, even though the gantry is 68" long, the unsupported span will only be about 48".

    To test the stiffness if the panel, I clamped the ends to my table and put what I'd get to be about 100lbs of force on it. This would tell me if I'd see any sag from the weight. When clamped at the ends, there was a small amount of deflection. When clamped at 48", there was maybe .01 or less. The vertical panels will be thicker, and there will be two of them. Also, when bonded into a box, rigidity of the assembly should go way up.

    Once the beam is assembled, I'll test it by supporting the ends, and stand on the center and check for deflection. If my 200lbs doesn't move it, I'll be happy. If not, I'll be out $100 and I'll start over. I think it's going to be extremely solid.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Z²-z_parts-jpg   Z²-gantry-section-gif   Z²-gantry_beam_bottom-jpg   Z²-mdf-layers-jpg  

    Gerry

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  11. #91
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    Gerry, I apologize if you have already explained this, but why not just start with high-grade plywood instead of doing the laminations yourself? Wouldn't the ply be more stable and stronger than MDF? Similarly, why laminate ply to Al instead of just using a slightly thicker piece of Al?

    Cheers!



  12. #92
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    I'd rather not spend the $200 on the plywood. All the wood I've used so far has been free. I think the strength and stability of the end product will be similar. And since I just built a 40"x90" press, the laminating is pretty easy to do. Even though I'll be spending $3000-$4000 on this, but money is still a pretty big issue, so if I can do it cheaper with more labor, I'll do it.

    Similarly, why laminate ply to Al instead of just using a slightly thicker piece of Al?
    One, because the intent is to build the majority of the machine from wood. The only reason for the aluminum is to make it easier to mount the bearing blocks.
    Two, I don't like working with metal all that much. For me, it's much easier to make the majority out of wood. I don't have to tap any holes, either.
    If the back plate was one piece of aluminum, I'd basically need to do the whole thing from aluminum. Much more complicated to fabricate, and much more expensive.

    Gerry

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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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  13. #93
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    Thanks Gerry. I expect that there are many of us pondering the metal vs wood construction approaches, and it is interesting when a new hybrid method is tried.
    Cheers!



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    gerry

    ialsopurchasedfromthem.. back about a year ago..
    they have 2 website..

    AGW15CB1TxxxxZ0H, Combo, 15mm T Rail, 4 Bolt Flange Block, Specify Length, Hiwin AG 15 Combos - automation products from Automation 4 Less

    this is the another one.. i dont knowthe reason why, but they have twowebsite..

    i used corian for machine, but its onlya12x18 x4 ...
    together with these steel rails i thinkthey are pretty rigid..

    corian camefrom acountertop store.. as cutoffpieces.. and they were free



  15. #95
    Registered Falcon69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorofga View Post
    gerry

    ialsopurchasedfromthem.. back about a year ago..
    they have 2 website..

    AGW15CB1TxxxxZ0H, Combo, 15mm T Rail, 4 Bolt Flange Block, Specify Length, Hiwin AG 15 Combos - automation products from Automation 4 Less

    this is the another one.. i dont knowthe reason why, but they have twowebsite..

    i used corian for machine, but its onlya12x18 x4 ...
    together with these steel rails i thinkthey are pretty rigid..

    corian camefrom acountertop store.. as cutoffpieces.. and they were free
    They have two websites because Automation4less sells new equipment, whereas the Automation Overstock sells new DISCONTINUED items. The stuff Automation4less sells is a superior product. I believe that the Hiwin Bearings they sell are 4 row bearings. But on Automation Overstock, they are ALOT cheaper, but are discontinued 2 row bearings blocks.



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    If I am correctly following the NOS Hiwin p/n system, that bearing block you are showing is a Z1 pre-load - right ? At some point, I think the preload / fit does not allow for field assembly on the rails.

    Is Z1 still something that you can slide - on in the field ? I am still debating the Z0 vs Z1 vs Z2 preload aspect. It is of course ideal to be stiff in the right directions, but also at some point, too stiff means movement takes real force.

    I am still trying to get a feel for what these pre-loads really mean.



  17. #97
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    If I am correctly following the NOS Hiwin p/n system, that bearing block you are showing is a Z1 pre-load - right?
    Correct.

    At some point, I think the preload / fit does not allow for field assembly on the rails.

    Is Z1 still something that you can slide - on in the field?

    I hope so! I haven't taken any out of the package yet, but I know many members here have purchased Hiwin rails, and I've never heard of a problem.

    At work, I have removed roller bearing blocks that had some preload, and it wasn't an issue.

    I believe that you can field install a block with any amount of preload.


    It is of course ideal to be stiff in the right directions, but also at some point, too stiff means movement takes real force.
    The manual has a small section on friction, and doesn't mention preload affecting it.
    When a load is 10% or less than the basic static load
    rate, the most of the resistance com from the grease resistance and frictional resistance between balls.



    I think that preload creates "stiction". It takes a little more force to get started, but once rolling, there's no difference between preload levels.


    I am still trying to get a feel for what these pre-loads really mean.
    The preload amount is a factor of the dynamic load rating.
    The dynamic load rating of the 20mm blocks I have is about 4629 lbs
    Z1 preload = .02 x 4629, or about 92lbs

    If I read this chart right, it looks like with my blocks, a ~90lb load (41kg) results in .001mm deflection?

    Automation Direct doesn't seem to stock preloads higher than Z1. For what we're using them for, I suspect that even the Z1 is way overkill. Even the Z0 is probably much stiffer than any other motion system being used by homebuilders.

    Also note, that higher preloads require more precise mounting. Parallelism and height between rails becomes more critical as preload goes up, so it's possible that higher preloads may result in binding if the installation isn't fairly precise.


    Gerry

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    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

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    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Once the beam is assembled, I'll test it by supporting the ends, and stand on the center and check for deflection. If my 200lbs doesn't move it, I'll be happy. If not, I'll be out $100 and I'll start over. I think it's going to be extremely solid.
    Here are a couple of analyzes of your beam using MDSolids3.5. I used a modulus of elasticity of 580,000psi for the MDF taken from a wikipedia chart. The exterior dimensions using a simple box section in both cases were 6" x 8". In the first case the wall thicknesses were as you indicated; 1" for the side walls and 3/4" for the top and bottom walls. In the second case the walls were all 1" thick. It will be interesting to see how well the final result corresponds with the theory.

    Chris

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Z²-gerrysy_mdf-jpg   Z²-gerrysymodified-jpg  


  19. #99
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    Thanks for that. I don't think it'll actually see close to 200 lbs in use, so the deflection should be quite a bit less than .004"?

    At first I was thinking it's a no-brainer to add another 1/4"? However, if I route dadoes through the extra layer for the internal ribs, does it still make it stronger? I think that with all the ribs bonded in place, the extra 1/4" would make very little difference, and the beam should end up stiffer than your analysis show?

    I also would think that the laminations are much stiffer than standard MDF, so that should also increase stiffness?

    I just did a quick test to check stiffness. I had a 10-1/2" wide piece of 3/4" MDF. I supported the two ends and placed 40lbs on the center.
    The deflection was about 1".
    Then I placed my 8" wide laminated panel on the supports, and added the same weight.
    The Deflection was about 3/4".

    So, my 25% smaller lamination was 25% stiffer than regular MDF.

    I don't have an easy way to test, but I suspect that the difference would be much greater if I could measure the deflection with the panel on edge. It would require a considerable amount of weight to see any deflection, though.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Z²-gantry_beam-jpg  
    Gerry

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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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    I completely agree with what you are saying above. I wasn't sure if you were adding internal ribs but seeing your drawing it's clear that you have that covered and it will add greatly to the stiffness. Looks like a good plan to me.

    Chris



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