Regenerative pump or DIY blackbox


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    Default Regenerative pump or DIY blackbox

    I was looking at doing the DIY blackbox for a vacuum pump but couldnt bring myself to buy just the parts and get started. I recently ran across 10hp Becker regenerative blowers for around $2300. They pull around 10" hg at 276cfm. I am looking at this option but I thought I would ask and see what some other thoughts were.

    Thanks for any and all help.

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    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regenerative pump or DIY blackbox

    Do you have the power to run that?
    Yes, that's a better option than the vacuum cleaner motors, if you have the power, and can afford it.

    Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Do you have the power to run that?
    Yes, that's a better option than the vacuum cleaner motors, if you have the power, and can afford it.

    Sounds good to me then ger, thanks. I have a 30hp phase converter that I use with my sliding panel saw right now. According to the specs it pulls around 28 amps, same as 4 vac motors. I figure it should have plenty of power for my use with sheet goods. I would love to have a rotary vane pump, but they cost half what my router did. I saw one at a show this past week and I was amazed how quiet it ran.



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    Default Re: Regenerative pump or DIY blackbox

    I did a little more in depth spec reading and if I understand this correctly the 8.9hp regen blower I was looking at below does not pull as hard as 4 of the vacuum motor listed below that.

    I am looking at the sv400/1. According to the specs it pull 136.7" water and 276 cfm at 60hz.

    https://www.beckerpumpsales.com/beck...-stage-vac.php

    The 4 vacuum motors are Ametek 122178-18. According to their specs they pull a max of 145.5" water at a max of 143.2 cfm each.

    https://www.centralvacuummotor.com/shopbot.htm

    Would a regen blower be the better option? I liked it for simplicity and a more commercial solution, but if the 4 motors are stronger at 1/2 the price I may have to go that way.

    Huge thank you for all the help, please bear with me on understanding this stuff.



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    Default Re: Regenerative pump or DIY blackbox

    6" of water is a negligible difference, and the regen moves double the airflow. So the regen should be much better.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Regenerative pump or DIY blackbox

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    6" of water is a negligible difference, and the regen moves double the airflow. So the regen should be much better.
    Agreed. I was looking to use 4 of the vacuum motors, so around 570 cfm total for them. I also notice the regen blower comes in around 74db, I saw a video of the blackbox (similar setup) hitting 85db.





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    Default Re: Regenerative pump or DIY blackbox

    Oh, I thought that was for all 4.

    It's a tough decision.
    How much will it get used? The black box motors have a limited lifespan, vs the regen which should last a decade.
    As you mentioned, noise is another factor.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Regenerative pump or DIY blackbox

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Oh, I thought that was for all 4.

    It's a tough decision.
    How much will it get used? The black box motors have a limited lifespan, vs the regen which should last a decade.
    As you mentioned, noise is another factor.
    They each pull 143 cfm, if I understand correctly adding more motors would increase the cfm not the vacuum strength. Right now I really like the regen simply for the sound difference, at times I may run it for 5-6hrs straight if I am cutting cabinet parts. Would 276cfm be enough to maintain 9+ inches on a 4x8 sheet while cutting? Roughly 10-15 parts per sheet. There is another blower that is 10hp but only pulls 5-6" hg at 285cfm and its only $1500.



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    Default Re: Regenerative pump or DIY blackbox

    Would 276cfm be enough to maintain 9+ inches on a 4x8 sheet while cutting?
    Too many variables to answer that. Number of parts and kerf width will have an affect, and it's impossible to guess what leakage and efficiency you'll have.

    Also, tool size, and feedrate will dictate how much vacuum you actually need.


    There is another blower that is 10hp but only pulls 5-6" hg at 285cfm and its only $1500.
    I would not buy that. Starting at 5-6"Hg is not enough, imo

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Regenerative pump or DIY blackbox

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Too many variables to answer that. Number of parts and kerf width will have an affect, and it's impossible to guess what leakage and efficiency you'll have.

    Also, tool size, and feedrate will dictate how much vacuum you actually need.

    I understand. I know an industrial machine will put a lot more stress on the material than mine. Im using 1/4" compression bits right now, 2 passes, 200-250ipm cutting speeds, 3/4" plywood. I know I will have to tab/onionskin small parts, I would like to be able to hold down to around a 100 sq in part.


    I would not buy that. Starting at 5-6"Hg is not enough, imo
    I will stay away from it. I would rather spend the extra to get something that would work.


    I really have a lot of respect for the opinion of you and this forum. How about this, which one do you think will work the best? The only big reason against the vac motor type setup for me is twice the noise level.



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    Default Re: Regenerative pump or DIY blackbox

    I haven't used either, and actually may build my own "black box" at some point, but I think the regen is a better option.

    All my experience is with Becker rotary vane pumps that run about $9K each.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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