4'x8' vacuum table build questions

[ger21]

The Bosch Colt (5.6A) is very popular.............................
I have the Dewalt (7A) as my trim router (I only have one trim router). I'm happy with it.

I think the Makita RT0701C is better than the Dewalt and Colt.
We've gone through a dozen Colts in our shop, then switched to the Dewalt, and were constantly changing bearings in them. Bought a Makita to try, and so far it's the superior tool.
I've got a few older trim routers at home, and will be adding a Makita to my collection.

For routers, I've got a bunch of older Porter Cables, which are better than the new ones.

[Gary-Wiant]

I looked at the Bosch Colt but no dust collector bracket/attachment is included or listed on Home Depot or Lowes sites as available.

I did find this Makita with a dust collector adaptor available for $12. The the Bosch Colt that much better for cleaning up parts that I should dig around looking for a dust collector adaptor?

*** Update***
The RT0701C is the Makita compact router I was looking at so that's probably what I'll end up getting
Thanks
Gary

[Gary-Wiant]

Gerry I missed your post before my last post but I'll look into the Makita p/n you listed.
Thanks
Gary

[ger21]

Personally, I've never used a dust collector on a router in the 30+ years I've been using them.

[wmgeorge]

Would a RotoZip work as a hand held tool to cut the pieces loose?

[routalot]

A sharp knife ought to be able to cut the pieces free so a RotoZip should have no problems.

[GME]

I have used a venturi vacuum system for vacuum bagging and it was ok.It wouldn't have stood a chance of securing anything on a router.Even with a pod and rail system and working with melamine face boards,I would want one per pod.For any machining on a spoilboard you need huge flow and not quite the level of vacuum you would seek for vacuum bagging.The principle difference is that a vacuum bag has a finite amount of air to remove and an MDF spoilboard will be leaking all the time the pump is running.The other reason for a high flow rate is that the workpiece is secured immediately.I have used a 20Hp pump to hold down 10'X5' sheets with no possibility of slippage but with this level of power consumption you don't want to take too long working on each piece or it gets expensive.

My experience with my system is nothing like you describe. But then, it never occurred to me to try to hold a vacuum on unsealed MDF. Clearly, the vacuum will rapidly leak though raw MDF. As far a vacuum bagging, my outfit is much better than just "ok."

[GME]

Personally, I've never used a dust collector on a router in the 30+ years I've been using them.

Neither have I in the 45 or so years I've been using them. However, unless I'm working outside, I always use a shop vac to collect the dust.

[Gary-Wiant]

I'm ordering the Makita compact router tomorrow morning, I think I'm going to order the RT0701CX3 with the extra bases included in the combo. I'm not sure if I'll need them but it's much cheaper than purchasing separate down the road.

The next tool I think I'm going to look for it a jointer so I can join some boards & glue up some panels, unless I'm able to joint the ends of boards with the CNC router?

[GME]

I'm ordering the Makita compact router tomorrow morning, I think I'm going to order the RT0701CX3 with the extra bases included in the combo. I'm not sure if I'll need them but it's much cheaper than purchasing separate down the road.

The next tool I think I'm going to look for it a jointer so I can join some boards & glue up some panels, unless I'm able to joint the ends of boards with the CNC router?

I've never tried using a CNC as a jointer, but then, I have a jointer and never had a need. I'm not positive, but I'm guessing a jointer would be faster than a CNC.

You are not the first to ask the question. I don't see why it wouldn't work, assuming your machine's accuracy is dialed in to something like a gnat's ear. I believe you would want to use a climb cut to avoid tearout.

I know it can be done with a regular router mounted in a table with a split fence. Given the size of a typical router table, your board length is limited. Anyway, if you can do it with a router table, you should be able to do it with a CNC. You are only limited by the size of your machine bed. Not having to buy a jointer would sure save shop space.

Good call getting the router kit. Half my routers are fixed base; half are plunge. Your kit will give you both in one at less than buying two routers. Time will tell, but I think you will be happy with your choice.

Gary

[ger21]

The next tool I think I'm going to look for it a jointer so I can join some boards & glue up some panels, unless I'm able to joint the ends of boards with the CNC router?

A more important use for a jointer is flatting boards. You can both flatten and edge joint on a CNC though, so if you aren't doing a lot, then you don't really need a jointer. The benefit of a jointer is that it's considerable faster. But unless you spend a LOT, on a big one, they are limited in the size boards they can flatten.
A good 8" jointer can cost $1500-$2500. Which is why I built my own 13" jointer. Home Built 13" Jointer

What you want to do, is first surface one side so it's flat. You'll want to shim any high spots so it's stable.Once one side is flat, put the flat side down, and straighten the edges with a light climb cut, to prevent tearout.

[Gary-Wiant]

Thank you Gary, I'm excited to start making some stuff, I did route my first 3d job this week for a very good buddy of mine that helped me work on my CNC a couple days. He goes to Colorado Elk hunting. It was a file I purchased online so I didn't post a photo but I'm happy for the first one. It just seemed to take forever but I wasnt sure about feed & speed. I used Oak & did the 3d roughing with a 1/4" down cut & I think the speed was good (150 ipm 12000 rpm) no chip outs. But with the 3d finishing pass I used a 1/8" straight ball nose. I cannot remember the stepover but the feed & speed was 50 ipm at 12000 rpm it just seemed to take forever. The 3d finishing took 2hr. For about a 7" x 12" I don't care about this one since it is a gift but how do you make enough off of these to even bother doing them?

I have a sign to make for a winery and I was wanting to just a 3d routed bunch of grapes in the corners but for that kind of time requirements I can't see anyone wanting to pay for that.

Gerry thank you, I'll look into t the DIY jointer, I didn't think about having to flatten one side prior to straightening the ends. My plan was to just run and mill along the length of a board then gluing them up & then either having a buddy surface them on his 20" plainer. Your saying do a light climb cut, do you mean just removing .05" - .1" the whole depth of the board in one pass or do you mean taking shallow passes until I go the whole way through the depth of the board?

Thank you

[ger21]

I cannot remember the stepover but the feed & speed was 50 ipm at 12000 rpm it just seemed to take forever.

Try 175-250ipm @ 18,000, or even faster at 24,000 rpm.

It's hard to make money on 3D work, unless you are charging a lot.

Yes, I'd take full depth passes, removing 1/16"-1/8".

[ger21]

having a buddy surface them on his 20" plainer.

Planers don't make boards flat, they make one side parallel to the other.

[GME]

Planers don't make boards flat, they make one side parallel to the other.

+1 to Gerry's comment.

A planer's presssure will mechanically flatten a non-flat board as it passes through. The board will also rock as it passes through, which will defeat what you are trying to do. Once the board through the planer, it springs back and returns back to it previous non-flat condition, or in the case of rocking, the planer just follows the defect. That said, you can flatten a board with a planer, but doing so adds a layer of complexity (and time) to the process. You start by constructing a flat, rigid substructure at least a little longer than the board you want to flatten. I'll call it a carrier. Then you put the board on the carrier and shim the board from underneath where it fails to make contact with the carrier. You need to immobilize the the board you are flattening. Hot melt glue works well. You run the assembly through the planer until the top side is flattened. Once the top is flattened, you remove the board from the carrier and plane the other side.

I've done this when I have a board that is wider than my 8" jointer, but is a lot of extra work. Fortunately, I rarely run boards wider than 8". Having a jointer with a wider capacity is a big plus.

If you decide to shop for a jointer, remember that the longer the bed length the better. You pay more for a long bed, but it gives better results, especially when jointing longer boards. Also, a spiral index cutter is better than knives. Of course, you pay a premium for them.

Setting knives in a jointer is a fussy business, if done correctly. I use a dial indicator, which sets them more accurately than any other method I've found. The spiral cutters use carbide insert that index to the cutter. The inserts have four sides, so they give a lot of life. One advantage is that there is no setting involved. Just rotate the insert and you are back in business. Another advantage comes when you nick a cutter (and you will). Just rotate the nicked insert and you're done. If you nick a blade (you will likely nick all of the knives), you have to offset the nicks, or resharpen them to remove the nicks, and reset them. Maddening when you are in the middle of a project. I haven't converted my jointer to a spiral cutter yet, so I keep 2 extra sets of knives on hand so work doesn't stop. Just some things to keep in mind.

On thing to consider when using the CNC to flatten boards. You probably won't be able to use your vacuum to hold the board down, and wouldn't want to. The vacuum won't hold if there are gaps, and if you got it to hold, you would have the same problem as running through a planer without a carrier. You would need an alternate hold down method. I haven't given it a lot of thought, but I suppose you would use blocking to keep the board from moving around and a downcut bit to discourage lifting. You may be able to use a surfacing cutter, but I'm not sure whether they are upcut, downcut, or just neutral. The ones with carbide inserts are probably neutral, but I'm not sure. Obviously, you wouldn't want a holddown that was on top of the surface, unless you want to face in multiple toolpaths. Multiple toolpaths would allow you to move the holddowns around. Again, a jointer would be much faster.

Gary

[Gary-Wiant]

Thank you Gerry & Gary, I agree that a jointer would be faster but I think for now I'm going to try to use the CNC until work demand gets high enough that I can justify it. I've been putting out a lot of money & not really making any back yet.

I've got a couple ideas on how to hold down pieces but that is for when I'm messing with 1.5" - 2" air dried slabs & not .75" thick kiln dried wood. Are you using hot glue to hold the material to your spoil board or do you have a board on top of your spoil board?

Thanks again
Gary

[GME]

Thank you Gerry & Gary, I agree that a jointer would be faster but I think for now I'm going to try to use the CNC until work demand gets high enough that I can justify it. I've been putting out a lot of money & not really making any back yet.

I've got a couple ideas on how to hold down pieces but that is for when I'm messing with 1.5" - 2" air dried slabs & not .75" thick kiln dried wood. Are you using hot glue to hold the material to your spoil board or do you have a board on top of your spoil board?

Thanks again
Gary

Sorry, if I gave you the wrong impression, Gary. I haven't used a CNC for planing or jointing. I have both a jointer and planer and have never needed to. The hot melt glue thing was for holding a board on a carrier to put through a planer. Having said that, if I were to use the CNC, I would probably use the same general technique. Instead of making a box as a carrier, I would fasten a piece of sheet goods to the spoilboard and then shim and hot glue as with the technique I discussed for using a planer. I have always used t-track in my spoilboard, so holding down the sheet goods is fast, easy and secure. Only you know whether you trust your vacuum system enough to hold the sheet goods. If you do, you will need to leave the vacuum running while you do the setup. You wouldn't want things getting moved about while you mount the board for planing. I would be reluctant to try to do the mounting work on my bench, for fear that a single thickness carrier might flex when being moved around and weaken or loosen the glue holding things together. Also, I'm not sure the hot melt is a strong enough connection to resist the CNC cutting forces. I'd want to experiment with some cheap stuff to check it out and work out a technique.

Gary

[GME]

Gary,

I forgot about a holding technique that might appeal to you (getting old's a b***h). I've used it and can attest that it works very well. It wouldn't do you much good when facing the first side of a board, since you wouldn't have a flat surface. However, it would work great on the second side and when jointing. Here's a how to YouTube video:



Gary

[Gary-Wiant]

Gary, Thank you, Yes I've seen that video or one like it explaining the process. Now that I ordered the compact router & a couple flush trim bits I'm not real concerned with holding down the regular kiln dried stuff my concern is figuring out a way to hold down the rough cut air dried lumber. I'm going to work on / with the router tomorrow. I'm going to wire & install an led light ring on my spindle & see if I can figure out what caused my one vacuum motor to stop working