Machine Parameters

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Thread: Machine Parameters

  1. #1
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Machine Parameters

    It still amazes me that just about ever month I see a post for someone with a CNC machine that has lost all parameters.
    I would think that by now everyone that obtains a CNC machine should know that if they did not get all documentation and parameters, including any option versions.
    The first thing you do is document and down load everything pertinent. .
    If the battery's go flat, Without them, the machine is just a chunk of iron!
    Fanuc - Mitsubishi et-al do not have them, they originate from the MTB's files.
    Al.

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    Default Re: Machine Parameters

    I know of one machine that came with a thick loose leaf manual that had one page dedicated to all the information needed to make the software operate-steps/mm,acceleration,physical limits of movement and much more.All of which was successfully loaded onto the computer connected to the machine.It was also copied and laminated before being stored in a filing cabinet in another building as well as being scanned and stored in an off site server.None of which was never needed because the one time the hard drive in the computer failed,the original was still on hand.

    Having known one or two companies cease trading after selling too few machines I don't understand why anybody would fail to keep records of the precise details of their own machine in several forms and in several locations.Even a photograph on a phone is helpful and with all the free online storage from the big tech companies it isn't an expense,but failing to back up critical information is a risk nobody rational would take.Would they?



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    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: Machine Parameters

    Many cases I have seen involve those that purchase machines at auctions, in many cases on site of the machines installation, usually the machine is demonstrated running and the successful bidder often forgets to ask for any documentation, including the machine parameters that one gets automatically with a new machine, often these records are sitting in the companies maintenance dept. and no one thinks of asking for them.
    The best way, if the records are not available is to ask for a down load of everything while the machine is powered before shipment.
    Another is the Siemens PC. based machines where HD loss often occurs, it is imperative to make a copy of the drive ASAP.
    Siemens charge $$$ for replacements.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Member machinehop5's Avatar
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    Default Re: Machine Parameters

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    It still amazes me that just about ever month I see a post for someone with a CNC machine that has lost all parameters.
    ...more like once or twice a day



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    Default Re: Machine Parameters

    Best ones are "Please help I have a cnc lathe with Fanuc O and need parameters"
    If they posted a machine manufacturer and model it would be soooooo much easier



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    Member deadlykitten's Avatar
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    Default Re: Machine Parameters

    hello, oo yes, machine parameters ... i spent almost all my time on okuma, and i have a few software cds for each machine

    1st time when i saw the cds, i really had no clue about how important are those, but now i keep them organized for each machine, and a back-up ... i started to back-up things a few years ago ( mostly to save custom machine programs ), and sometimes i think that, if workplace and house burn down, i will lose my back-up i am not really protected against a huge earthquake and internet-going-down, so i consider to print them all and bury them under a tree

    our local okuma dealer used to deliver the cd's each time :
    ... a new machine was delivered
    ... a software upgrade occured, because :
    ...... client ordered a machine accesory, or special function, etc
    ...... okuma requested that each client should receive latest software version, for some safety reason
    * i have seen how, because of an update, the machine started to move faster when executing certain type of codes

    in the end, our local okuma dealer decided to stop sending the cd's to the clients, after someone decided to re-install it's system and screwed it so nice, that in the end it was required for okuma-japan to come and fix his machine

    It still amazes me that just about ever month I see a post for someone with a CNC machine that has lost all parameters
    i don't know Al_The_Man from where did your idea come, thus i always thought that you only reply, not also start threads ( it may be just me, whatvever, i rarely see you, maybe because i am a bit blind, or something )

    but what amazes me, is that each time a machine get's realigned ( because of a crash ), it may get bumped again in the next hours or days it happened to me also a few times, and i really started to think about machining regardless of alignment status, so i managed to:
    ... drill ( 8-10 L/D ) on inclined turrets
    ... align live tools with tir<>0
    ... skew programs, so to handle cases where s and z axis are no longer paralel
    * thus i try to postpone machine alignment as looong as possible

    last time when we could align it back, we simply leaved it like that, and aligned a different machine, which was in a worse state, not because it was critical to align it, but had not ever been aligned before, so at least to have a clue about how-to-fix-it

    If the battery's go flat, Without them, the machine is just a chunk of iron!

    Many cases I have seen involve those that purchase machines at auctions ... records are sitting in the companies maintenance dept. and no one thinks of asking for them

    Siemens charge $$$ for replacements
    i believe that few persons, when buying their 1st cnc, are aware of parameters and back-up ... they simply wanna get it started to get their money back

    and there is huge pressure, especially for those that get a brand new machine with their own money, in comparison to those that get a new one using help through a state-fund-project ( thus they pay only a fraction, not entire purchase cost ), or in comparison to someone that get a 2nd hand machine and tries to fit it inside the garage

    so there is a huge pressure for each one, more or less, but sometimes, some shops, can not relief pressure, even after a few years ... their mind is always focused on short-terms, and costs, without being able to see far ahead ... in such a situation, losing the parameters may be "fatal", thus maybe parameter-restoration-cost is too high, or the cnc machine dealer simply vanished ... etc

    this "huge pressure" normally lowers when operators/programers/technicians get's more experience and get-along with each other, and this combo does not fall from sky

    also, this pressure may lower pretty fast, only if someone is eating cake, but is hard to keep it, because everybody wants a bite ... generally, this ends with nasty arguments

    there are tiny strings behind all these, making someone believe that is his fault, or his employes fault that they coudn't relief the pressure, but in reality, this strings are forcing big companies to move their plants, and, a few years after, also they may determine a smaller company to move to other country, or shutdown ...

    i have seen how clothes industry moved, slowely, but steady, through a few countries, ending up in places from where is no other place to go; now, this also happens with metal cutting industry

    many people said that there will always be metalcutting, because is hard to move it, because is required to run with experienced operators, etc, but reality is different

    these days, even a well organized shop is feeling this pressure ... truth is that pressure was always there, and some were able to manage it ... these day pressure increased because those tiny strings got stretched just a bit more


    sorry for the long reply, ideas changed as i was writing it / kindly

    the human body has enough iron to make a nail ... i can also make the hammer :) i mean a plastic hammer


  7. #7
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: Machine Parameters

    Quote Originally Posted by deadlykitten View Post

    i don't know Al_The_Man from where did your idea come, thus i always thought that you only reply, not also start threads ( it may be just me, whatvever, i rarely see you, maybe because i am a bit blind, or something )
    My ideas?
    Well as to the post in particular, it mainly comes from observations starting in the '80's when I first got into the CNC side of servicing and retro-fitting, also from different forums such as this, where pleas usually end up.!.
    I don't post as much as I did 17 years ago when I became a moderator.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


  8. #8

    Default Re: Machine Parameters

    We figured out that none of our powermate d/f's or our omc backed up correctly using rs232. We have over 1000's machines with fanuc in them and never had issues with 16i,21i, ect ect just the real old powermates and one omc.. Books so old and faded on the omc you cant read it so cant make out the pmc parameters or option parameters to hand type in. We lost everything and the machine builder from 35 years ago says they don't have it so we are stuck. Tried to post on here to see if anyone gots the option paramaters from a machine like it but no one responded.

    We did figure out that if we use a f-rom card to back up the powermate d/f's it works fine to load back in but if we back up the pmc on our computers it will not load back in. Had fanuc come out and they said its just too old and our newer computers are messing up the file when it transfers to our computers or something. They couldnt even back it up on their computers and get it to reload in. We don't have many powermate d/f's left but for now we are buying a bunch of f-rom cards off ebay to put in each machine with powermate d/f's for back ups of ladder since you cant get a computer to use a f-rom card to take off what ever you loaded on it.

    But we are still stuck with the omc with no option parameters and one powermate that wont back up because it gives a 950 alarm when you try to back it up on f-rom. Cant change its card out to fix 950 cuz we don't have a back up to put on the new card.

    Point is some people asking for parameters did back it up. Then when they needed to use the back up they found it was corrupt and doesn't work. So we learned to back up then load back up back into machine to make sure it works when backing up. Also if they lost back up or it got corrupt its very hard to get the machine maker to give you the info from 30 years ago when they made it.



  9. #9
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: Machine Parameters

    RS232 was the standard, and usually no problem with the right S/W and cable, some times the old RS232 IC's used in the early models failed, so In some cases I have had to punch them all in by hand, but a little laborious
    The 900's and 9000's option parameters were also important.
    Also RS232 communication mode parameters had to entered before any transmission.
    Al.

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Machine Parameters

    Yes we know the parameters and how to back it up. Fanuc techs that came out try to do it the same way we do. It will back up and it will load back. The issue is with our old machines when we back it up it doesn't save correctly. So when it loads back it doesn't work. I don't know if you have ever back up old powermates but when you back up the ladder it is just a ton of letters and numbers in text. Fanuc says that these old powermates do this with our newer computer systems these days and the numbers and letters get mixed up during back up some how and that's why it doesn't work. One time a Fanuc tech spent all day switching letters and numbers and percent signs around and he got one to work but they have never been able to get any others to work. So they recommended to either upgrade the machine to newer fanuc stuff or to have a f-rom card for each old powermates backup.

    The moral of the story is we didn't know the backups were not right when we backed them up. We learned after we had to try to use one of the back ups. By then it is too late. So from now on when we back up machines we reload the back up to make sure it works right after we back up. But the two machines that lost everything that we had backups that didn't work became a task. One we were able to find the book and hand type the whole ladder in on a dpl. Man that was fun. But the omc we found the book and its so old you can't make out the 900-940 parameters and the machine builder does not have them so we are still in the dark with it. I posted on here hoping someone has the option parameters to machine like it I can try but got no reply's. Looks like I will be upgrading the machine from a omc with mitsubishi plc to something newer with a fanuc pmc no plc. Or throwing away the old machine and start retooling an older machine that has a new fanuc that doesn't use a plc but a fanuc pmc instead. I don't blame the machine builder for not having a back up due to the machine was made 40 years ago.



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    Default Re: Machine Parameters

    Send me a PM. with email add.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Member machinehop5's Avatar
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    Default Re: Machine Parameters

    Quote Originally Posted by awall513 View Post
    The issue is with our old machines when we back it up it doesn't save correctly. So when it loads back it doesn't work. I don't know if you have ever back up old powermates but when you back up the ladder it is just a ton of letters and numbers in text. Fanuc says that these old powermates do this with our newer computer systems these days and the numbers and letters get mixed up during back up some how and that's why it doesn't work.
    ..this might be caused by the Text Editor being used to transfer/store the data.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_editor

    snip of History..."Before text editors existed, computer text was punched into cards with keypunch machines. Physical boxes of these thin cardboard cards were then inserted into a card-reader. Magnetic tape and disk "card-image" files created from such card decks often had no line-separation characters at all, and assumed fixed-length 80-character records. An alternative to cards was punched paper tape. It could be created by some teleprinters (such as the Teletype), which used special characters to indicate ends of records."

    Last edited by machinehop5; 09-14-2020 at 02:59 AM.


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