Okuma v Makino

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    Default Okuma v Makino

    Hi All

    We are looking to purchase a new machining center.
    At present we are looking at the Okuma Genos M560v and the Makino PS105
    Both would be fitted with a 4th axis.
    Initially for an Aluminium project but we do machine all materials.
    We are looking for speed and rigidity.
    I would like some feed back either machines please
    Thanks in advance
    JBO

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    Default Re: Okuma v Makino

    hy jbo, i have no experience with makino, but only with okuma ... i will share a few things about okumas :
    1) there is windows on the controller, and this allows installing many applications, so to speed up a few things :
    1.1) fast file transfer & edit, file back-ups, syncronizing, etc ( just use a wifi-usb, or an internet cable, and configure the conection like you would do with any other pc )
    1.2) msOffice applications can be installed, and this allows:
    1.2.1) running xls macros from xls files that are installed inside the machine ( so you dont need to go to another computer, re-create the code, and then come back with it at the machine )
    1.2.2.) running xls setup sheets, that may include all infos about a setup, like a drawing, fixtures, tools, axis zeros, everything required to run the program
    1.2.3) xls codes, interfaced with okuma's api, so to really go next-level with custom programing ( like custom probing macros, that can not be replicated easy on other cncs, and may require expensive software for alternative programing; thus, you may boost the way your probe behaves )
    1.3) pdf viewer ( so you can transfer drawings directly to the machine, and the operator may create the program from it, without needing to print the paper )
    1.4) manuals are located inside the machine hdd, and can be accesed from windows explorer, or from a specific osp application, making it prety fast to search for help, for a special function, or for the serial number for a spare part ( on most machines, basic manuals and instructions are hard to find, or even get lost after a while, and many spare parts do not fit well .... okuma will install on any machine only machine-compatible versions, and will create technical drawings that include all parts that are installed inside the machine )
    1.5) you may use the windows calculator, so to calculate pretty fast a few things ( thus you don't need to use your smart-phone, or a real calculator )
    1.6) the controller comes with many applications installed, designed to help you with a few things, like cutting-specs calculator, possibility to send emails if something fails, etc, and there is also a web site with custom applications : Welcome to the Okuma App Store
    1.7) there are usb conections, so you can plug a mouse, a stick, an externhal hdd ... some persons use also a 2nd monitor, or a web-cam inside the machine, or a tablet that runs teamviewer, etc

    i have all my data syncronized, so, if i am at home, i may create a program, connect with a machine, and remotely, with the help of an operator, start / debug a setup ... if something happens during a 2nd shift, or a 3rd shift late night, i don't have to be there, because i may fix it from home; i have started setups on a machine located on another continent ... this is the power of remote and you may watch youtube videos on the machine

    2) there is a qwerty keyboard, that had been improved since osp300 appeared, thus it has a quality feedback, making it very robust, and responsive : this speeds up the creation of code, and the navigation across interfaces

    3) rarely, thus really very very rarely, you will see lags : in other words, it operates smooth, and is responsive on key-down instantaneously in most cases; to keep it that way, is required to avoid installing many other applications on the controller, thus keeping the extra-load on a minimum

    4) when it comes to special functions, i believe that both machines have a few common things ... if i would have to decide, i would ask for manuals for both machines, before purchasing, and looking over the special functions before taking a decision; on okuma's you have acces to:
    4.1) ipw parameters and acceleration parameters, that may allow you to configure the rapids and feeds cinematic diagram, so to smooth out the movement, or to speed it to max, but also having a little bumpy behaviour; thus, an okuma machine can be configured to behave smooth(for precision finishing) or bumpy(for roughing); thus continuous G's adjusmtent for acc/decc, and also diagram shape
    4.2) cycle time reduction techniques, adaptive feeding, 3d toolpath smoothing ( super nurbs, high accu ), deceleration & acceleration management at toolpath joints ( hi cut pro, good for hsc )
    4.3) auto tunning functions ( navy functions )

    5) on okuma is installed a conversational software ( igf : will deliver for most simple parts ), and another simplified conversational ( i-map : will deliver for most simple operations )

    We are looking for speed and rigidity
    you can't have best for both, but a compromise; for example, on some okuma machines, is possible to choose between several types of roughing spindles ( thus low rpm, high torque ) and several types of finishing spindles ( high rpms, lower torque )

    both manuals, for both machines, should have the spindle diagram displayed, so is possible to compare them

    for an okuma mb, i have chosen a wide range type, bt50, that has higher rpms and higer torque compared to standard, but i never use it in the high rpms, thus i don't use tiny tools inside it once above a certain rpm, is started a counter for high-rpms-on, and this shows how long a machine have been used at high speed ...

    i just checked the diagrams for both spindles : they are comparable ( okuma is 1st, makino is 2nd ):
    ... roughing : 720-2500vs1200-3500
    ... finishing : 4000-15000vs5000-9000
    *okuma provides less torque from lower rpms, but more torque range at higher rpms
    *when going in overload, 2nd coil, makino can keep it longer & harder
    i don't have latest manual version, so i can't be exact

    if you are in doubts, run an identical test cut on both machines ( same material, same fixture, same tool, same spec, target the spindle "sweet" rpm zone ), listen to the sound, and use a vibration recorder on table & spindle

    initially for an Aluminium
    diamond edge end mill + through spindle air, or nozzle air

    Both would be fitted with a 4th axis.
    check if the 4th axis can be used syncronized with xyz, or only for positioning

    for okuma, nikken crafts rotary tables with okuma motors, but there may be also other vendors

    kitagawa recently revealed a 4th axis with nc, that can be moved easily from one cnc to another one ( thus can be "passed" between cnc's with different controllers )

    kindly

    ps : take into consideration after sale suport, waranty, training costs, call center, service reaction time, thus the "power" of your local dealer install shower coolant, so to keep the cabinet clean; look into programable spider-coolant-nozzles, r232 conection; if needed, buy some cast iron plates and craft your own quick-change system; use toolholders with damping technology, so to really push the roughing operations, without sending vibrations inside your machine; modify a few vices, so to make them work togheter with a hidraulic pump, controlled by m codes; life is short : don't bother to align a vice, or a rotary table : just clamp it strongly, then use a custom probing macro to detect rotation, and rotate your program; do you need a custom okuma code, or application ? maybe i can help you; if you wish, i may sugest a configuration for your okuma high-feed tools with ae<tool_diameter, thus when entering/exiting the cut, generate huge lateral force, so lower the feeds and look into this, or always begin the cut with a helix plunge, because, if not done properly, it may ruin your spindle ( i believe that only makino can detect & monitor this force ); if you wish to achieve a bit of versatility, check this out : https://www.cnczone.com/forums/milli...ml#post2358198

    there is a good okuma forum, where you may find several start-up tricks ( wcs system variables, parameters, fast tool registration, tool change macros, and many others ), so to be up to speed in no-time : https://www.cnczone.com/forums/okuma/

    if you have questions, or you are in doubt about a makino characteristic, i may be able to explain & show you how okuma is handling it, and you may decide which one pleases you the most don't judge fundamentally on a price difference <20-30%, because it may affect you in the long-run

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: Okuma v Makino

    Thank you DeadlyKitten

    You have raised many good points, i appreciate the effort you have put into your response.
    I will let you know what we decide
    Kind regards
    JBO



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    Default Re: Okuma v Makino

    thank you jbo, yes, i have tried to highlight a few things, i hope you find them usefull

    okuma has developed cloud solutions from a few years ago

    iot 4.0 is an actual thing, and only big shops are looking into it

    i have implemented it on okuma's, in small shops, using custom macros and custom software, being able to detect anomalies before they turn into something bad, or being able to see problems that operators are not aware of; if you wish, take a look over here : https://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-s...61414-cnc.html

    kindly

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: Okuma v Makino

    JBO,
    I have 47 years in the Machine Tool Industry and served a 4-yr Apprenticeship with Cincinnati when they were at their prime.
    If your are buying this for Aluminum then you want a 10,000 to 20,000 rpm spindle to get the optimum cut-speeds on your tooling.
    Both Makino and Okuma build rigid machines and you only get what you are willing to pay for.
    Both Makino and Okuma customize the controls for Machine Tool users. Makino uses a customized Fanuc is famous for
    High-speed Tool & Die, Aerospace and Special Graphite machining. Fanuc stands behind their Drives and Controls which have excellent
    reliability. On the fanuc's options are extra; but Makino offers "Option Packages". I have worked a lot with the PC Controls and
    they are excellent features; but normally do not have as long of a "product life-cycle" if they use off the shelf hardware.
    Either way, it is best get the builders application people involved to help you choose and purchase a machine
    to make your particular part. Do your homework and best wishes!
    GW



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    Default Re: Okuma v Makino

    I have worked a lot with the PC Controls and
    they are excellent features; but normally do not have as long of a "product life-cycle" if they use off the shelf hardware.
    hello gwood, please, can you explain that a bit ? i don't understand

    Makino uses a customized Fanuc is famous for
    High-speed Tool & Die, Aerospace and Special Graphite machining.
    okuma has:
    ... hicut ( optimization for deceleration and acceleration at toopath joints; good for hsm )
    ... supernurbs ( toolpath interpolation, in order to speed up machining complex toolpaths, with accuracy < 1um )
    ... hypersurface ( toopath regression; there is no more needed to optimize the cloud density output by a cam; is like a dehoter )
    *and many others

    it would be interesting to overload each machine with a complex toolpath, high density, and see which one behaves smoother and faster

    youtube "okuma vs makino"

    Fanuc stands behind their Drives and Controls which have excellent reliability
    okuma develops it's own cnc, and it is a piece of art, especially the latest osp300api; also, fanuc compatible; if required, it may be 100% fanuc, but it would be less capable

    On the fanuc's options are extra; but Makino offers "Option Packages"
    fanuc is installed across multiple machine brands, and this limits it's spread of special functions

    okuma's special function manuals are 400pages, about 80 special functions

    kindly

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: Okuma v Makino

    DK,
    I have personally repaired and programmed and taught programming and operations with 14 controls over the past years. I love the idea of a CNC Control built by a machine tool builder for a machine tool user; it has many advantages. I can tell you from experience that if the PC based control uses off the shelve hardware it will not last the 20-30 years that dedicated self manufactured control. Fanuc stands behind their very reliable hardware. The PC control that I worked with the most had for example 3-boards made in house; which after 20 years are still supported and repairable. The off the self PC motherboards went through 14 to 20 revisions as processors changed, and are only repairable at this time. Some Control Manufactures out there like to obsolete their hardware as soon as legally allowed and revised their hardware so nothing is backwards compatible. Buyer Beware; it's on your back. The flip phone you bought 10 years ago was obsolete, like ... how fast? How long does the metal last versus the CNC Control and Drives? How reliable will it be 6 years down the line. These are big investments to make for the small shop.

    As far as the speed and the look ahead: I used to use a point to point circular program to make just a 2-axis test. Program makes two 1.9685" Radius Circles.
    It goes around the circle twice. Average span length 0.0005” plus move-on, move-off. There are 61,850 points.
    Theoretical time the 61,850 points, excluding block processing time is: 52.68 seconds. Tested on five different controls it ran from 1.15 minutes to 19.9 minutes.
    A circle on a 45 degree tilt would be even better and test X-Y-Z. This is really important in aluminum or 3-D finishing.

    Thermal growth is important on spindles and axes. Think about way wipers, coolant intrusion, ease of cleaning, auto lubrication etc...

    I'm not here to push one vendor versus the other; if I was I would be a salesperson, something I avoided my whole life.

    Let the applications people sell what the machine will do for the customer to make the parts desired.
    GW



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    Default Re: Okuma v Makino

    hello gwood, i am not into hardware as much as you are, but i believe i understand what you mean about shelf-hardware

    about reliability, all i can tell is that okuma's are pretty longevive, and are among the most old cnc's still working today

    i don't have experience, so i can't say that makino, or okuma, have better hardware

    i have seen guys asking about compatibility between different revision electronic boards for some vintage machines, and also complaining about the cost of replacement hardware; i have seen shops strugling with replacing costs, and others that would buy those without any problem ...

    As far as the speed and the look ahead: I used to use a point to point circular program to make just a 2-axis test. Program makes two 1.9685" Radius Circles
    i did the math, i believe you are talking about a o100mm circle, divided into segments of 1um, in 2d [xy] and tilted, in 3d [xyz] is a nice test, it actually targets the zone where a modern cnc would start to succumb

    Theoretical time the 61,850 points, excluding block processing time is: 52.68 seconds.
    in most cases, block processing time, is not important, because it is way much faster then the execution time

    however, it does matter for high-resolution toolpaths i have looked into it many times ... i like coding, and i divide my techinuque like this :
    ... >few seconds : cutting specs optimizations
    ... around 1 second : approaches, auxialary movement optimization ( thus non-cutting )
    ... 0.1 - 1 second : cycle time reduction functions
    ... <0.1 : noex optimizations
    ... <0.01 : boosting math into codes with heavy math calculations
    *thus there is a time duration for each class, and the fastest classes require faster block processing times

    for example, in the fastest classes, i have safety codes, data colection, complementary axis monitoring, etc, and i have to implement those without affecting the overall program time; when execution time gets close to block processing time, every character matters ... for example, after i achieve a function, i drastically reduce code lizibility(size,layout,indentation,etc), in order to boost it's execution time

    a few tricks here, there, in the end it has to work

    Tested on five different controls it ran from 1.15 minutes to 19.9 minutes.
    yes, you can compare the time from different machines, but for a real true comparison, is required also to know how the cnc deviates, or how does it smooth out the movement ... because it may be possible that a faster cnc is losing accuracy, while a slower cnc is trying to keep the accuracy at high levels ( or maybe the controller got succumeb, is flooded )

    there are persons complaining about dinamics during hsm, machine going bumpy, or slowing too much; same for 3d complex toolpaths, some persons say that it takes too much time ... all these can be tested with good software, that uses the real cnc algorithms, but few shops work at this level

    another solution is to have advanced motion parameterized algorithsm, inside the cnc, and both okuma and makino have those; each one with his own approach, thus different levels of extent

    I'm not here to push one vendor versus the other
    me neither ... i only replied because those are nice machines, that are not entry-level, and i just wanna share what is possible with those, because a machine is not always used up to its potental ... there are persons that don't understand, or don't afford such machines ... or even if they could afford, they don't see a reason why not to buy a cheaper machine ... some shops do not even aford pullstuds, others are changing crashed spindles within 48 hours / kindly

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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