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  1. #21
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    I think what you are talking about is a power drawbar. You could make one, there are all kinds of videos and posts about them.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    I think what you are talking about is a power drawbar. You could make one, there are all kinds of videos and posts about them.
    Thanks you have been very helpful



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    My pleasure

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pullarius View Post
    Wow that's a lot of needed parts to it. Will some machines come with that or is that all extra?

    So I guess after reading both your answers my next question is.

    Is it better to buy a cnc conversion kit as a beginner looking for a high quality cnc machine or is pure diy better?
    Hello again.

    It all depends on your needs, budget and of course what you want to manufacture.

    My current job is retrofitting both "dead" cnc machines and converting mechanical machines. Please remember my definition for "mechanical" machines.

    Since retrofitting or conversion usually costs a fraction of a new or even some used cnc machines some of my customers have us work on their machines so that they can start offering new products to their customers and save money to eventually buy newer machines.

    I must also say that in some cases, in particular with originally CNC machines, after they are retrofitted they nearly reach the production levels of a brand new machine so it´s usually not appealing to buy a new one and so they stick with their old one.

    In this latter case they know they can have local, relatively fast and less expensive service should they ever need it.

    The turning point to keep their old machine or buy a new one is the mechanical condition of their machines. In some cases we also do a full overhaul changing worn parts like bearings, ballscrews, linear guides and whatever is necessary. In this case the time factor is also very important. It´s of no use if I can have a machine work as a new one if it takes me a year to complete.

    And yet some customers buy what I would consider real piles of junk and still have us work on them. One such case is one Gribetz quilter shown in one of the videos I uploaded to YOUTUBE. It took us nearly 5 months to complete. It´s running at about 85% of a brand new machine but according to its owner the total cost including our time and service was still less than half than the new one. He could afford such time as he has other machines in his factory.

    After all this speech and regarding your question, I would first start asking what your intended products are. If you can give me some insight, maybe I can help you to first decide on going DIY or buying a commercial machine. From then on it would be a matter of analysing options to find what could probably be best for you.

    I´m sure that in any case other members can also help you decide (or get more confused) but it´s possible to get things done. The most important thing to my understanding would be to avoid you spending your money on something that will not service you as you need.

    A personal note on advise from salesmen. While there are a number of very well trained people out there they are still salesmen and for good of bad their intention is normally that of convincing you to buy their products. So take their advise with caution.

    Regards.



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    Member Pullarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMNet View Post
    Hello again.

    It all depends on your needs, budget and of course what you want to manufacture.

    My current job is retrofitting both "dead" cnc machines and converting mechanical machines. Please remember my definition for "mechanical" machines.

    Since retrofitting or conversion usually costs a fraction of a new or even some used cnc machines some of my customers have us work on their machines so that they can start offering new products to their customers and save money to eventually buy newer machines.

    I must also say that in some cases, in particular with originally CNC machines, after they are retrofitted they nearly reach the production levels of a brand new machine so it´s usually not appealing to buy a new one and so they stick with their old one.

    In this latter case they know they can have local, relatively fast and less expensive service should they ever need it.

    The turning point to keep their old machine or buy a new one is the mechanical condition of their machines. In some cases we also do a full overhaul changing worn parts like bearings, ballscrews, linear guides and whatever is necessary. In this case the time factor is also very important. It´s of no use if I can have a machine work as a new one if it takes me a year to complete.

    And yet some customers buy what I would consider real piles of junk and still have us work on them. One such case is one Gribetz quilter shown in one of the videos I uploaded to YOUTUBE. It took us nearly 5 months to complete. It´s running at about 85% of a brand new machine but according to its owner the total cost including our time and service was still less than half than the new one. He could afford such time as he has other machines in his factory.

    After all this speech and regarding your question, I would first start asking what your intended products are. If you can give me some insight, maybe I can help you to first decide on going DIY or buying a commercial machine. From then on it would be a matter of analysing options to find what could probably be best for you.

    I´m sure that in any case other members can also help you decide (or get more confused) but it´s possible to get things done. The most important thing to my understanding would be to avoid you spending your money on something that will not service you as you need.

    A personal note on advise from salesmen. While there are a number of very well trained people out there they are still salesmen and for good of bad their intention is normally that of convincing you to buy their products. So take their advise with caution.

    Regards.
    Thanks I am wanting to do small scale high quality gunsmithing. I probably wont sell them unless I get good at it and get all the proper licenses.

    It probably will just be hobby level making guns I want that are not available any more or making guns that use existing gun designs but have an outer shell of a games gun to look like one from a video game.



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    Default Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    I would look for a kit something like this. (Disclaimer: this is not a suggestion, but is only an example) https://procutcnc.com/product/pm25mv...onversion-kit/

    This particular kit does not include the motors, but those are readily available, as are the other electronics needed.

    Edit: I have no idea what BBMNet is posting pictures of, but it is not a CNC mill.
    Hello.

    Your are correct. They are chain quilters. I posted them to make my point in the fact that esencially it is possible to do about the same job using steppers or servos.

    The first machine uses steppers while the second uses servos. The software is about the same but if you listen carefully you will notice that the second machine runs faster than the first.

    That´s all about them.

    You want to see a mill? Well, the most like machine is this.



    Again the software is the same but in this case the graphic interface is activated. This is an analog servo driven machine.

    My software was designed in modules. As such when we retrofit any given machine I just select the corresponding motor controller and that´s it.

    As I mentioned before my software is not particularly appealing as the workscreens are very simple but I do not need any external motion controller. It is the PC that takes care of everything. In some machines even the logic controllers of some servos and VFD´s are emulated by software modules. Imagine a servo drive where all you can see are the power transistors linked to the PC via some OP-AMP and a couple of small signal transistors and a pair of optocouplers.

    Regards.



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    Member Pullarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMNet View Post
    Hello.

    Your are correct. They are chain quilters. I posted them to make my point in the fact that esencially it is possible to do about the same job using steppers or servos.

    The first machine uses steppers while the second uses servos. The software is about the same but if you listen carefully you will notice that the second machine runs faster than the first.

    That´s all about them.

    You want to see a mill? Well, the most like machine is this.



    Again the software is the same but in this case the graphic interface is activated. This is an analog servo driven machine.

    My software was designed in modules. As such when we retrofit any given machine I just select the corresponding motor controller and that´s it.

    As I mentioned before my software is not particularly appealing as the workscreens are very simple but I do not need any external motion controller. It is the PC that takes care of everything. In some machines even the logic controllers of some servos and VFD´s are emulated by software modules. Imagine a servo drive where all you can see are the power transistors linked to the PC via some OP-AMP and a couple of small signal transistors and a pair of optocouplers.

    Regards.

    Which is better for high quality low production?

    Servos or steppers? I dont know anything about machining I just know it's very complex



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    Cool Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    Hello.

    In my opinion the selection is mostly dependent upon the type of machine and the parts you intend to manufacture. While steppers offer lower cost implementation they cannot effectively be applied on all machines.

    If you got to watch the videos showing the quilters the first one uses a stepper based system. Since the machine is a very light one while it would have been possible to use servos they would have been a waste as they could not have been configured to run faster then about half the speed they could deliver. Steppers were the right choice for this machine. 1600 oz-in Nema 34 motors were selected. They are small with power enough to move this machine in open loop mode. No lost steps during operation.

    Regarding the second quilter we dealt with an originally CNC machine. It´s a rather heavy rigid machine, While steppers could have been used here the selection would have involved large sized motors and still risk lost steps. The right choice was to use servos. After checking on the machine´s original motors we selected newer equivalents. This particular machine arrived as little more than a pile of junk. Rusted, some parts bent or broken. Yet the owner wanted to give restoration a try. And we took the challenge. Fortunately we got it working. As a new car it had first to be run at a relatively low speed and that was 50% faster than the machine in the first video. Nowadays it´s running slightly faster than twice that machine and it still has faster configurations to go.

    One personal note on closed loop stepper systems. While they operationally pose an intermediate choice in between of steppers and servos, at least here in México the price even if you import them directly is too close to servo equivalents so it´s better to go with servos. And of course they give you the possibility of higher resolution and repeatability.

    As It was mentioned before you can get advise from some salesmen but take their advise with caution as they will always try to convince you on buying their hopefully best option to solve your manufacturing needs but of course none will tell you that someone else´s machine is cheaper or better for your needs.

    I´m trying to contact some of my former mechanics who may have better ideas regarding this subject of yours about doing some gunsmithing. I will post back as soon as I get some answer. It will probably be next week as I´m more likely to find them on weekend.

    Regards.



  9. #29
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pullarius View Post
    Which is better for high quality low production?

    Servos or steppers? I dont know anything about machining I just know it's very complex
    Servos are always better than steppers in any machine tool. Today there isn't a huge price difference between quality steppers/drives vs. servos/drives. Servos are a bit more of course, but the advantages (speed, accuracy) are well worth the cost difference.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Thanks for the great reply guys. Y'all have been very helpful with this. I still feel like I'm over my head but I have watched some videos and with y'all's help and the videos I'm learning a lot.



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    Default Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pullarius View Post
    Which is better for high quality low production?

    Servos or steppers? I dont know anything about machining I just know it's very complex
    Servos for sure you won't find any CNC machining centers that use steppers, even quality hobby machines use servos

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    I know nothing of firearms or gun smithing so I'll ask an uninformed question. Does this type of work require simultaneous movement in 2 or more axis ? A manual mill with DRO can do precision work but if the work is complex the accessories needed will run you broke.

    Anyone who says "It only goes together one way" has no imagination.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclestart View Post
    I know nothing of firearms or gun smithing so I'll ask an uninformed question. Does this type of work require simultaneous movement in 2 or more axis ? A manual mill with DRO can do precision work but if the work is complex the accessories needed will run you broke.
    I don't know either can a diy cnc machine of a manual mill not do that?



  14. #34
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    Consider that people have been building firearms for about 1000 years, since the Chinese invented gunpowder. It has been a progression from a dirt floor gunsmith shop and crude hand tools, to modern CNC equipment. Looking back about 100 years, all firearms were built on manual machines. The success of the outcome is really dependant on the skill of the gunsmith. This is the case whether using hand tools or CNC equipment.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    Hello.

    Let me elucidate on cyclestart´s comment.

    Most processes can be done manually. In fact they were originally done that way. Be it gunsmithing, furniture or even art.

    The idea behind automating any process be it a CNC or any industrial process for that matter is to minimize safety risks on the operators due mainly to the boredom of performing repetitive tasks and to guarantee that the manufactured parts are as equal as possible to one another so that assembly can be easier.

    To make my point on the latter just remember that the Secesion War was won with the help of automated gunsmithing that allowed for mass production of guns and rifles and that all parts were interchangeable.

    I can´t tell about prices nowadays but if you´re planning on investing on DRO (Digital Read Out) units I must say that there a number of low cost CNC controllers that go for less than a set of DRO´s. I wouldn´t recommend them though as to my judgement they are difficult to program but I have not really gone through learning about their systems as I have my own but in any case I think they are worth a look.

    There is some post in this forum about those controllers that might also be worth looking for.

    Regards.

    PS: cyclestart´s question remains valid. How many axes do you think would be needed synchronized at any one time. That´s a question one of my former mechanics asked me. As requested before please confirm if possible the steel grades you will be using. According to him it should be 4140, the very grade we used the most for our own machines.



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    Default Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    A low cost DRO should be at least as accurate as low-end Chinese digital calipers. I'll let the reader decide how to interpret that statement

    Anyone who says "It only goes together one way" has no imagination.


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    Default Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    Hello.

    The following link takes you to the web page of a commercial CNC machine that I think might be what you are looking for. In any case I think it´s worth looking at.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...nd-capable-cnc

    I suggest you talk to these guys and tell them about your intended application.

    It´s a small machine capable of working on steel. MACH 3 appears to be its control software, so it would be possible to get lots of help whether in this forum or others besides the support from the manufacturer.

    Regards.



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    Default Re: How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

    As a life long Machinist and former Federal Firearms manufacturer (type 07 FFL) I will tell you that to succeed this will require a multi-year commitment. It could be 2 years before you make your first gun part.

    First - Check your local community colleges and trade schools to see if they have a machinist or gunsmith training classes. Get into a class and start turning handles... For your own shop, do you have enough space with good power? All the little support tooling takes up alot of space and needs to be well organized so that you can find the tooling you need when you need it. Think about 1 full height rollaway tool box per machine. Another full box ( or dozen ) for your inspection gear, mics, calipers, thread gages, pin gages, loupes, reference tables, charts, books etc.

    Storage space for your raw stock.

    As you learn how to use someone elses machines you can get a better idea of what you will want/need in your own shop. Be honest with yourself about "want/need". I want a HMC with a 50+ tool ATC and 16 pallet magazine, But a plain 30 tool VMC w/o pallet can make the same parts - only less per shift.



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How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?

How precise is this diy manual mill to cnc conversion?