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    Default Looking for feedback on a build idea

    Been throwing around the idea of building a cnc mill, the end goal is to hopefully be able to mill most materials (although i believe in this first iteration rigidity will be an issue)

    I have compiled a list of components I believe I can cobble together, the feedback I'm looking for is if anything will absolutely not work together, if I am missing a component, and any huge safety issues.

    Drivers:
    https://www.geckodrive.com/g201x-dig...tep-drive.html
    x3 = 327
    heatsink = 74

    Axis Motors:
    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...34h2160-62-8a/
    X3 = 359.85
    16 awg wire

    Controllers:

    pmdx gecko mobo:
    PMDX.COM - Products for CNC and motion control applications
    x1 = 55
    pmdx 126 mobo
    PMDX.COM - Products for CNC and motion control applications
    x1 = 174

    spindle controller:
    PMDX.COM - Products for CNC and motion control applications
    x1 = 57

    smoothstepper:
    https://warp9td.com/index.php/products
    x1: = 180

    Driver power supply:
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/72v-16-5a-1...-/132199640758
    x1 = 305

    chassis c-beam machine:
    https://openbuildspartstore.com/open...-beam-machine/
    x1: 589.99

    spindle:
    https://littlemachineshop.com/produc...ory=-269978449
    x1 = 390

    vhd: hitachi nes1-015sb
    https://www.wolfautomation.com/ac-dr...-single-phase/
    x1 = 201

    total: $2713-ish

    Right now the problem I view is rigidity when working harder materials, I just do not have faith in the c-beams to hold up to the torques that the spindle and the nema 34's can apply to a workpiece. Also I do not have a vice selected right now that will be more of an addon.

    I am hoping to use this as a platform to upgrade itself although I am now questioning whether I should instead build a plasma cutter to be able to cut a heavy frame for a future mill.

    Thoughts, concerns, ideas?

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    Member QuinnSjoblom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eh3378 View Post
    Been throwing around the idea of building a cnc mill, the end goal is to hopefully be able to mill most materials (although i believe in this first iteration rigidity will be an issue)

    I have compiled a list of components I believe I can cobble together, the feedback I'm looking for is if anything will absolutely not work together, if I am missing a component, and any huge safety issues.

    Drivers:
    https://www.geckodrive.com/g201x-dig...tep-drive.html
    x3 = 327
    heatsink = 74

    Axis Motors:
    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...34h2160-62-8a/
    X3 = 359.85
    16 awg wire

    Controllers:

    pmdx gecko mobo:
    PMDX.COM - Products for CNC and motion control applications
    x1 = 55
    pmdx 126 mobo
    PMDX.COM - Products for CNC and motion control applications
    x1 = 174

    spindle controller:
    PMDX.COM - Products for CNC and motion control applications
    x1 = 57

    smoothstepper:
    https://warp9td.com/index.php/products
    x1: = 180

    Driver power supply:
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/72v-16-5a-1...-/132199640758
    x1 = 305

    chassis c-beam machine:
    https://openbuildspartstore.com/open...-beam-machine/
    x1: 589.99

    spindle:
    https://littlemachineshop.com/produc...ory=-269978449
    x1 = 390

    vhd: hitachi nes1-015sb
    https://www.wolfautomation.com/ac-dr...-single-phase/
    x1 = 201

    total: $2713-ish

    Right now the problem I view is rigidity when working harder materials, I just do not have faith in the c-beams to hold up to the torques that the spindle and the nema 34's can apply to a workpiece. Also I do not have a vice selected right now that will be more of an addon.

    I am hoping to use this as a platform to upgrade itself although I am now questioning whether I should instead build a plasma cutter to be able to cut a heavy frame for a future mill.

    Thoughts, concerns, ideas?
    I'm not the most experienced on here, but my 2c, all your components will massively outperform that c beam frame. It's definitely going to be your limiting factor from lack of of rigidity. It all depends what you plan on doing. If you wanted to work on a wide range of materials, I would say a taig or sherline would far outperform that c beam in terms of rigidity, but obviously a much smaller workspace. I would imagine the the c beam could handle very slow work in aluminum with small tools, but more than that it's just gonna flex too much. Precision is also gonna be limited.

    I built my own machine from the ground up for about what you paid, but I had access to basic tools like a table saw, router, drill press. My machine uses some pretty beefy extrusions, mostly 50mm x 100mm, but it gets most of its rigidity from heavy reinforcement with 1/2" thick aluminum gussets that connect everything together, as well as solid aluminum plates on the front and rear of the gantry, and plates under every linear rail. I bought mic6 tooling plate for all the aluminum parts which can he cut on a table saw pretty easily. I rough cut the parts slightly oversize and made mdf templates for bringing the parts to final size with a carbide flush trim in a router. All drilling done in drill press, also using the mdf templates. I probably only held about a 5 or 10 thou tolerance on these parts, but I designed the machine in a way that it didn't rely on accuracy of the parts, only flatness was important which was already taken care of by using mic6. Holes were drilled slightly oversized for fasteners to pass through to allow adjustability of everything. bought a full set of 20mm linear rails and 1605 ballscrews on ebay for 500 bucks. Basically clones of hiwin but they have performed fantastic for hundreds of hours now. Precision is excellent, about 3 tenths backlash at the most. If I'm paying attention to tool runout, I can hold half a thou tolerance on aluminum parts. Since i knew i would be working in mostly aluminum, i went with the Chinese 24k rpm 2.2kw spindle (6k to 24k range). Not great for steel since sfm is too high at 6k, but I still do some occasional milling in steel with small cutters to keep sfm down. In aluminum it it's great, I run at 14k rpm with a 1/4 3 flute using mist coolant and can remove material at a very respectable rate. If speed is less important that working in a wide range of materials, something like the spindle you selected is better, although check out glock cncs new bt30 spindle, many advantages over r8. Eventually I'm gonna switch to that with a dmm servo driving it.
    So basically, if you have access to some basic tools, consider building your own frame, as it will massively outperform that c beam. If you want something more ready to go, I would still consider something different like a taig if you want to work in mostly metal.
    Also you can make some changes to your component list to sabe a lot of money. Your steppers and drivers are overkill. Get some 300 to 400oz nema 23's, and a gecko g540. Its an all in one unit with 4 stepper drivers and Bob built in, simply a db25 cord between smoothstepper a g540, that's all. G540 is like 280 bucks or so. Also has that extra driver if you do dual drive x on a Gantry machine which i would recommend. I didn't look at your power supply, but 300 bucks is alot, should be no more than 100 for what you need. Oh, and get the Ethernet smoothstepper, not the usb. Ethernet is so much more stable when it comes to pc controlled machines.

    Last edited by QuinnSjoblom; 10-18-2019 at 11:02 AM.


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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    I'm not the most experienced on here, but my 2c, all your components will massively outperform that c beam frame. It's definitely going to be your limiting factor from lack of of rigidity.
    +1

    I wouldn't spend more than $500 for electronics on that C Beam machine. It's a lightweight hobby machine.

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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    As other have said, the CBeam machine is truly the weak link here. I have a small one and it has a fair amount of deflection. You can get decent results if you run with a shallow DOC but that makes for really long run times for moderately complex operations. The forum at openbuilds is full of discussions about this and schemes to stiffen the various frames but you are better off starting with something you don't have to patch in the first place.

    Or, if you are willing to accept the limitations of a CBeam machine, you can put much lower cost components on it.



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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    Hi EH - A mill is a totally different thing to a hobby router. I think you need to look at small bench top mills and convert one to CNC. Peter



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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    I think you need to look at small bench top mills and convert one to CNC. Peter
    Yeah... perhaps something like a Sieg X3 or Grizzley G0704. I'd avoid the round column "mill-drills", though - the round column means that when you adjust the Z you lose the X & Y position.



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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnSjoblom View Post
    I'm not the most experienced on here, but my 2c, all your components will massively outperform that c beam frame. It's definitely going to be your limiting factor from lack of of rigidity. It all depends what you plan on doing. If you wanted to work on a wide range of materials, I would say a taig or sherline would far outperform that c beam in terms of rigidity, but obviously a much smaller workspace. I would imagine the the c beam could handle very slow work in aluminum with small tools, but more than that it's just gonna flex too much. Precision is also gonna be limited.

    I built my own machine from the ground up for about what you paid, but I had access to basic tools like a table saw, router, drill press. My machine uses some pretty beefy extrusions, mostly 50mm x 100mm, but it gets most of its rigidity from heavy reinforcement with 1/2" thick aluminum gussets that connect everything together, as well as solid aluminum plates on the front and rear of the gantry, and plates under every linear rail. I bought mic6 tooling plate for all the aluminum parts which can he cut on a table saw pretty easily. I rough cut the parts slightly oversize and made mdf templates for bringing the parts to final size with a carbide flush trim in a router. All drilling done in drill press, also using the mdf templates. I probably only held about a 5 or 10 thou tolerance on these parts, but I designed the machine in a way that it didn't rely on accuracy of the parts, only flatness was important which was already taken care of by using mic6. Holes were drilled slightly oversized for fasteners to pass through to allow adjustability of everything. bought a full set of 20mm linear rails and 1605 ballscrews on ebay for 500 bucks. Basically clones of hiwin but they have performed fantastic for hundreds of hours now. Precision is excellent, about 3 tenths backlash at the most. If I'm paying attention to tool runout, I can hold half a thou tolerance on aluminum parts. Since i knew i would be working in mostly aluminum, i went with the Chinese 24k rpm 2.2kw spindle (6k to 24k range). Not great for steel since sfm is too high at 6k, but I still do some occasional milling in steel with small cutters to keep sfm down. In aluminum it it's great, I run at 14k rpm with a 1/4 3 flute using mist coolant and can remove material at a very respectable rate. If speed is less important that working in a wide range of materials, something like the spindle you selected is better, although check out glock cncs new bt30 spindle, many advantages over r8. Eventually I'm gonna switch to that with a dmm servo driving it.
    So basically, if you have access to some basic tools, consider building your own frame, as it will massively outperform that c beam. If you want something more ready to go, I would still consider something different like a taig if you want to work in mostly metal.
    Also you can make some changes to your component list to sabe a lot of money. Your steppers and drivers are overkill. Get some 300 to 400oz nema 23's, and a gecko g540. Its an all in one unit with 4 stepper drivers and Bob built in, simply a db25 cord between smoothstepper a g540, that's all. G540 is like 280 bucks or so. Also has that extra driver if you do dual drive x on a Gantry machine which i would recommend. I didn't look at your power supply, but 300 bucks is alot, should be no more than 100 for what you need. Oh, and get the Ethernet smoothstepper, not the usb. Ethernet is so much more stable when it comes to pc controlled machines.
    Thank you for the suggestions, at first I thought building a frame would be more than I wanted to do but the more I research and hear it doesnt seem as daunting. Also great call on the gecko g540, the electronics I had selected were just overkill but i was having difficulty finding an alternative. Will the nema 23's scale into a larger future build?



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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    Like others on this thread, I don't believe that aluminum extrusion-based frame will do what you're expecting. If you really want to be able to mill metals, you're looking for an entirely different basic machine that's a lot more rigid. Take a look at various mills that actually were designed to cut steel, and you'll notice they're considerably different in their construction. Small ones can be made from welded steel, but ones with a part envelope like you're looking for tend to be made from cast iron. Unless you've got access to a foundry, it's a lot more cost and time-effective to find an older mill and retrofit it than to make your own mill from scratch.

    One thing I noticed about your list was that the spindle you indicated has its motor controls included - what's the VFD for? I should also point out that for the money you're anticipating having to spend, you can buy a Taig mill complete with CNC system; all you'd need to provide would be a computer. That would be able to make the motor mounts and other smallish machined parts you'd need for a future machine, as well as handle other projects you might have, that fit its envelope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eh3378 View Post
    Thank you for the suggestions, at first I thought building a frame would be more than I wanted to do but the more I research and hear it doesnt seem as daunting. Also great call on the gecko g540, the electronics I had selected were just overkill but i was having difficulty finding an alternative. Will the nema 23's scale into a larger future build?
    Yes, nema 23s will drive a decent sized machine. For example, the biggest tormach is driven by nema23, although those might be higher torque than the 300 to 400oz I mentioned. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but going with higher torque steppers usually has a lower rpm limit, so rapids will top out lower if you go overkill on torque. The tormach machines use box ways and leadscrews, so they need the torque, but the rapids aren't so great. With my machine that uses 300oz steppers, linear bearings, and 5mm pitch ballscrews, i can get 10m/m rapids (400in/m) and ive never lost steps, not once. I'm also using Ethernet smoothstepper and g540. Really solid setup. Also I'm not sure what your experience is with cnc, but if you're just learning you WILL crash. With my setup I can do pretty aggressive cutting in aluminum, 3 cubic inches per minute with out ever losing steps, and the the power of stepper/ballscrew combination will stall out in a crash before damaging my machine. If o had crazy torque steppers, a crash could do some serious damage. Although that's just my machine which I consider to be pretty rigid. A c beam frame might just twist itself apart in a crash even with only 300oz.



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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    The spindle i was looking at (is basically a replacement head unit for that mini mill) comes with a variable speed PWM (? something like that) which allows you to change the speed by turning a dial, the VFD (variable frequency drive) im hoping would allow me to remove the existing speed control and replace it with one that can accept signal inputs from the controller.

    although now that you've pointed me at taig.... jesus how did i not find that company when i was researching....



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    Quote Originally Posted by eh3378 View Post
    The spindle i was looking at (is basically a replacement head unit for that mini mill) comes with a variable speed PWM (? something like that) which allows you to change the speed by turning a dial, the VFD (variable frequency drive) im hoping would allow me to remove the existing speed control and replace it with one that can accept signal inputs from the controller.

    although now that you've pointed me at taig.... jesus how did i not find that company when i was researching....
    Also check out glock cnc. They sell upgrades for taig and I believe are also a dealer for taig and will sell an upgraded machine instead of replacing stuff later. They have a bt30 spindle headstock that is about to be released. It's designed to work on sherline and also taig with an adapter. Bt30 is pretty much the ultimate spindle setup for a medium to small mill in terms of rigidity, repeatability, runout, and ability for atc. Combine that with a servo to drive it and you have an extremely capable setup. Servo driven spindle is nice for a lot of reasons. A lot of power in a small package, very wide range of useable rpm (torque all the way down to zero), spindle indexing for tool changer, rigid tapping, etc. Next upgrade for my home built machine is gonna be that bt30 headstock and dmm servo to drive it.



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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    One concept that I found fascinating is fox3d's granite mill, which is steel capable, pretty much just using hand tools. YouTube series video 1:


    He uses a granite surface plate as the base and bed (for his machine, a 24" x 36" x 4"), which is a mass-produced precision flat (to e.g. +/-0.0002") rigid surface. Granite countertop material for sides and the gantry.

    Cutting oil or flood coolant won't bother it a bit.

    Bosch PDB-40 benchtop drill press (head height adjusts on the column, 240V though) to slide on it, with a diamond cup wheel to grind the sides flat and parallel to the bed.

    Also bloody heavy, at 400# for the bed alone. Might want a size or two down. Pick one up locally if possible; $$$ for shipping.

    The less-accurate version would use only countertop material, which is not as flat or precise but is available as surplus, remainders and scrap.

    I think of it as brute-force elegance: use a mass-produced, low cost flat, rigid precision object as the basis for the machine.



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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    Why do I always get the impression with DIY builds that anything suggesting a welded frame is a leap in the dark.

    By welding I'm suggesting a steel tube build and a fully welded one at that......no bolts or screws etc.

    Here's an example of a build material you can rely on for rigidity and pure strength...……..square steel tubing...….100mm X 50mm X 6mm wall thickness, and it won't break the bank if you buy a full length and get it cut to the sizes you want.

    When it comes to welding all you really need for a half decent welding bead, even if you've never done welding before, is a cheap hobby 120 amp welder and couple of hours with some scrap material and a few welding rods.....avoid Mig welding unless you have more funds for the outlay.

    Of course, most people want to run before they can walk with a Killa Dilla machine that outperforms all comers bar none, but an amateurish finish on a welded job can be ground up to look good and paint covers all sins......the main criteria is to make it as square as possible to all axes and correct your mistakes as you progress.

    So far I don't think a work envelope has been mentioned or the type of work intended for a build...…..but KISS at all costs.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    Have you ever put more details of the machine you built on the forum or elsewhere?
    I sounds like you have a good design and I would like to see more about it.

    Quote from QuinnSoblom:
    I built my own machine from the ground up for about what you paid, but I had access to basic tools like a table saw, router, drill press. My machine uses some pretty beefy extrusions, mostly 50mm x 100mm, but it gets most of its rigidity from heavy reinforcement with 1/2" thick aluminum gussets that connect everything together, as well as solid aluminum plates on the front and rear of the gantry, and plates under every linear rail. I bought mic6 tooling plate for all the aluminum parts which can he cut on a table saw pretty easily. I rough cut the parts slightly oversize and made mdf templates for bringing the parts to final size with a carbide flush trim in a router. All drilling done in drill press, also using the mdf templates. I probably only held about a 5 or 10 thou tolerance on these parts, but I designed the machine in a way that it didn't rely on accuracy of the parts, only flatness was important which was already taken care of by using mic6. Holes were drilled slightly oversized for fasteners to pass through to allow adjustability of everything. bought a full set of 20mm linear rails and 1605 ballscrews on ebay for 500 bucks. Basically clones of hiwin but they have performed fantastic for hundreds of hours now. Precision is excellent, about 3 tenths backlash at the most. If I'm paying attention to tool runout, I can hold half a thou tolerance on aluminum parts. Since i knew i would be working in mostly aluminum, i went with the Chinese 24k rpm 2.2kw spindle (6k to 24k range). Not great for steel since sfm is too high at 6k, but I still do some occasional milling in steel with small cutters to keep sfm down. In aluminum it it's great, I run at 14k rpm with a 1/4 3 flute using mist coolant and can remove material at a very respectable rate. If speed is less important that working in a wide range of materials, something like the spindle you selected is better, although check out glock cncs new bt30 spindle, many advantages over r8. Eventually I'm gonna switch to that with a dmm servo driving it.

    Last edited by jgforbes; 01-08-2020 at 07:17 PM. Reason: Was not clear waht my question refered to


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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    I agree with HANDLEWANKER. Steel seems to be a frowned upon here but welding up a simple frame can be a good alternative. The only caveat is that you will need some ability to make some flat machined surfaces on the frame after you have welded it.

    Or, you could try Epoxy Granite for the frame. I have not done one of these yet, but I can see one in my future.
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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    Hi Max Bob - I don't think welding is frowned upon, many many machines are made this way. Maybe its the most common way as its an easy cheap garage type technology. For every machine here there must be 100's out there done this way. The issue is that people say they want a super tolerance machine then say they are going to weld the frame and other bits and have no idea that the parts will warp and have to be corrected in some way. Many builders state aims that are in conflict with their build processes. The forum just points this out in a blunt manner. All build processes have issues and solutions. Ultimately every maker gets a machine going and they work. But if you are aiming at a precision machine spec then the Maker has to be prepared to do various things to achieve it, or be disappointed or delighted. Peter



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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    Hi, before anyone does a build they'll need to have a reference point to work from......that is interpreted as a flat surface, squares, straight edges and metrology gear along with other equipment.

    For a surface that is relatively flat I don't think you can beat a slab of granite counter top off cut.....it's going to be the nearest thing to a flat surface you can rely on.

    Being stone it won't rust or get too affected by odd welding splatter if you need to do a set-up that needs to be welded on the spot, but covering the exposed surface with some thin MDF board will help a lot......damp paper also works.

    At least you can now work from a level plane and get some integrity in the outcome.

    All those that want a humungeous size machine build will have to rely on the garage floor as it was poured for a level surface, and best of British with the alignment in that case.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Kkatl View Post
    Hey take a look at a build i am doing, i am using some great gear, including nema 34 12NM hybrid stepper motors with closed loop feedback. Also i think you should take a look at the Masso cnc mill controllers, they are extraordinary. I am currently running a crowdfunding campaign for my project, see if the CAD files interest you.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...?ref=user_menu
    Hmmmmm……...very exotic, more in the realms of a future commercial enterprise build than DIY......mega bucks comes into the thinking too.

    I detest commercialism, but agree that it's what puts the machine on the showroom floor and makes a practical buy now/ machine now scenario possible as opposed to a DIY compromise with design and materials that are much of a muchness and the same old same old.

    At the same time, making a dream machine with state of the art technology is not cheap, (wide eyed and breathless etc) and anticipating going into a production mode is reaching for the stars when a crowd funding start out is the only answer...….I would think the Chinese are streets ahead in that field.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    Well, you may be going in the right direction but what is the point?...….are you reinventing the wheel just because or is this a ground breaking Earth shattering break through that most of us package buyers.....myself included......indulge in during a spare moment because we think that the state of the art R&D has already been done and the mega bucks of development is well in hand which means we don't have to sit down with a pencil and paper and try to come up with a new innovative way to move metal chips at a different rate...….most of us have a pet theory of the ideal machine but lack the wherewithall to put it into being.

    I would applaud your efforts with both hands clapping wildly, but until I see a single component made that looks like it might be something from a CNC mill thingo……..I won't be holding my breath.

    If it isn't a closely guarded secret...... design or concept wise..... perhaps we might see a loose concept plan of the actual design characteristics and a breakdown of what sets it apart from the common scruff.

    BTW, cobbling together high spec components does not constitute a high end concept, anyone with a big enough bank roll can do that.

    But, best of luck with your dream...…..nothing ventured nothing gained etc, and the stars are getting closer the more Man gets to think that way..
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Looking for feedback on a build idea

    That Kickstarter page shows what looks like a pretty nice enclosure, but it's hard to tell much about what's inside. If the person who put it up is on this thread: do you have a picture of the frame you could share, and the specifications for the steel parts that (presumably) need to get welded together before being filled with epoxy-granite? More details on the components would be helpful, such as: what sort of linear rails are you talking about? What are you using for a spindle and spindle motor? Will it have an ATC? A touchplate for zeroing? A 4th axis? How much will it weigh? What do you mean by "active damping"? The accuracy specs seem optimistic for a machine you haven't built yet - or have you? Is the idea to just sell a set of plans, or are you putting out a kit with parts? Or do you plan on actually building these machines, selling and supporting them? There probably would be some demand in New Zealand for a small locally-made mill like that, if it really worked well, was priced modestly, and came with good support.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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Looking for feedback on a build idea

Looking for feedback on a build idea