Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death


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Thread: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

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    Default Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    Hey guys, recently acquired an Arrow 750 and thanks to the grand help from folk on this forum I managed to get it up and running and made few bits with her, but I've now run into spindle problems, it intermittently won't run.
    The problem just came out of nowhere, or it might be attributed to a crash... So I did have a crash, nothing too heavy I don't think. The Z was rapid down and the tool length was incorrect, so the tool holder hit the piece in the vice. The spindle wasn't turning for this one. Everything seemed to be ok and I carried on. Had a second semi-crash where the tool wasn't long enough for the pocket it was helixing into, and again the tool holder hit the piece in the vice. The spindle was on for this one but I managed to hit the emergency stop before things got too wild, surely no more load than a heavy cut?

    Then one day I switched her on and during alignment, the spindle turned a small amount and then nothing else. Turned off and on again but no luck. The next day she fired up just fine but wouldn't give the spindle high RPM's. The next day she worked fine and I made a few bits and she died mid-program. The next day wouldn't even move the spindle for alignment. The next day worked all good all day. The next day she moved a small amount during alignment and now here I am...

    The warning that comes up is;

    Alarm 39-97
    Spindle drive not ready
    Cause 1: The spindle enable signal is not on, but the spindle drive ready signal is on. It should not be on at this time
    Cause2: The spindle enable signal has been set on, but the spindle drive ready signal has not been received.

    I have spoken to my machine engineers and they have said I can take the spindle drive out and send it up to them for testing to see if it's actually the spindle drive causing the fault, but figured I put some feelers out here as well. The fact it has been intermittent has me questioning whether it's a drive fault, or a loose connection caused by the crash, or some dirt has been shaken loose by the vibrations?



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    Member machinehop5's Avatar
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    Default re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    ...door switch, tool changer interlock, low oil level, air pressure, anything 5V check/clean all Plugs, etc, etc...
    good luck hunting



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    Default Re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    Does it have black drives, if so it is a Kollmorgan drive and you should contact Kilroy corporation 937-660-5313. Do you have a red fault light on the spindle drive. There is software that you can look at the drive and find out what the error is. You may have rattled something loose, shut down the complete machine and tighten all the electrical connections. You may have a bad input or output relay causing the problem. I assume that you have a A2100 control, you can look at programware in the service window to see what the I/O is doing.

    MIKE CNC Machine Services INC | Cincinnati Milacron MachinesCNC Machine Services



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    Default Re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    There are three sensors on the spindle, I guess these are the encoder? Two of them have red lights on and one does not, so I'm guessing this is the cause? If I turn the spindle by hand there is a 4th sensor round the back that lights up as the doohickey goes past. (Sorry, I am proper clueless)

    There isn't a red fault light on the Kollmorgan drive until the machine is given power, then it lights up.
    Also, yeah it's an A2100. Thanks for the tips.



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    Default Re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    The encoder is in the spindle motor and is not visible at the spindle. The 3 sensors you mentioned are likely for the drawbar and would have no effect on spindle alignment. The 4th one is likely because you have the high torque spindle which could affect alignment if it is not working properly but you seem to indicate it is (it should be on for 1/2 the revolution, off for the other 1/2)



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    Default Re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    The red fault light indicates the drive has detected a problem, as Kilroy mentioned, you can use Motionlink to see the recent error history which my point to a cause.



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    Default Re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    Hey everyone, thanks for the input so far. Much appreciated.
    Things move at a glacial pace around here, so sorry for the extended radio silence in this thread.

    I am still having trouble with the machine, after much poking and prodding I sent the spindle drive and power supply away to be repaired. Apparently, both had gone down. Luckily the power supply was repaired under warranty, but the spindle drive was mega spendy. I've placed them back in the machine today and, unfortunately, I am still getting the same problem. Alarm 39-6 Axis drives not enabled.

    It was mentioned that the door switch could be causing the trouble. I tested with a new switch and there was no change so I returned it. I then purchased a new cable and replaced that, wired up with the original switch, no change.

    When I make the second press of the green button to "give the machine power" and run around the back to have a look. The contactor has closed but the power supply does not come on. No lights are on before or during the second press. The spindle drive and axis drives all have the lights on before and during the second press. I'm assuming the power supply isn't at fault because it's just back from repair (emphasis on assuming), so what is the machine checking for before it turns on the power supply?

    I have spoken to the firm who repaired the parts and they have said I need an engineer to come visit, I just cannot afford to be paying £50 an hour for them to drive here.



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    Default Re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    The Alarm 39-6 Axis drives not enabled is related to the BDS4 Axes Dives and NOT the Spindle Drive. At "Drives ON" 2nd 'Master Start' does any Fault Led turn on besides the Undervolts?
    Does the Control Volts LED blink or fade on and Axis Drive?



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    Default Re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    The PSR is getting voltage when the contactor makes a connection after pressing the green button for the second time, about 135V across the three input connectors at the bottom of the device. There is also voltage in the cables that connect the PSR to each axis drive.

    Surely this would mean the problem is within the PSR?

    The green enabled lights up on the BDS4s and the red fault lights on the VSF5

    The error code is saying that the axis drive ready signal, or the servo ready signal is not being received.



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    Default Re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    First of all, I'm assuming you have figured this out by now, but you can't press the power button and then walk to the back to see what happened as it will be too late by the time you get there. You will need someone to press the power button while you watch the cabinet if you expect to see anything useful.

    As Greg partially pointed out, yesterday you indicated "I am still getting the same problem. Alarm 39-6 Axis drives not enabled" but the original issue was not 39-6, it was 39-97 - Spindle drive not ready. These are different alarms and tell you to chase different possible causes.

    If your incoming 3 phase power to the PSR is 135 V, that is too low. This would mean your PSR is not the main problem, but the power coming into it is too low. What is your machine's incoming 3 phase power at? How are you checking incoming voltage at the PSR? Have you verified what the outgoing PSR voltage is when it is powered up?

    First things first, verify your incoming machine voltage is in the 230V range (this is the voltage that should be coming out of the Multi-tap transformer that came with the machine). If it is not, correct this before even turning the machine on again.

    Last edited by maver1ck; 09-24-2021 at 10:56 AM.


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    Default Re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    Thanks, Maverick

    I have been having some slight success with running round the back, there are about 10 seconds or so.

    The original fault I was getting when I first created this thread was likely caused by a battery going flat in the VFS5. Speaking to Mike Kilroy over emails, the symptoms he described were spot on. I didn't know this at the time, So I removed the VFS5 from the machine and cleaned it with a contact cleaner and an airline. The dirt it was covered in was insane and I was hoping this was the problem. Before removing the VFS5 the machine would power up and move the bed, but not the spindle. Now that the VFS5 is back in the machine it won't power up the axis drives and throws up code 39-6.

    I am measuring the voltage with a cheap as chips voltmeter, black on an earth point and red on the terminal as it goes into the PSR. On the AC V 600 setting.

    Must be the input voltage then, as it measures 130V before it goes into the contactor as well.
    How do I go about correcting that and why would it have changed by removing and replacing the VFS5?

    Edit: Measuring phase to phase I get 230V, measuring phase to ground I get 130V



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    Default Re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    So now that you know your incoming voltage is 230VAC the next step is to verify PSR output voltage. This is easiest by having someone else press the power on button while you watch the drives. You should verify the actual output voltage, but as long as any of them enable properly and the undervolt light turns off, this confirms your PSR output is at least close to the normal range. Frequently one of the drives will remain undervolt while the others power up normally which indicates the axis/drive you will need to look at. If anything else happens, at least you will be able to see if one axes drive responds differently than the others during the initial power up.

    However, after typing all of that, this type of fault should occur in less than 1 second. If you are truly having 10 seconds before the CNC faults, something else is likely causing the machine to shut down which removes power from the PSR (and subsequently the Servo drives). Once the power is removed from the Servo drives, they would return to an Undervolt state and drop the enabled signal.

    There is also a concern that you mention the spindle drive (VFS5?) still has a fault light on it when the servo drives power up. This shouldn't cause the alarm you are seeing, but if there is a fault on the VFS5, the spindle drive likely still won't work once you do get the machine to power on.



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    Default Re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    So, the PRS is not outputting any voltage. The undervolts LED stays lit on all the axis drives as well as the fault light coming on the VSF5 (spindle drive). I put a multimeter across the two terminals that connect the PSR to the VFS5 and the BDS4's and picked up zero voltage.



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    Default Re: Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

    I found this article
    https://gesrepair.com/common-cnc-machine-failures/
    read the "How Do I Fix a Problem with the Power Supply?" section and took the DC wires from the PSR to find it was actually producing a voltage.

    Turns out I'd crossed the DC cables between the Z and Y-axis.
    Feel a complete fool, but so happy to have found the problem.



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Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death

Cincinatti Arrow 750 - potential spindle drive death