Chinease 9Kw HSD ATC Spindle Knockoffs !

[gfacer]

I am REALLY happy right now.

I switched the S1 and S2 sensor wires, because I got the Chinese instructions....but I did not revise my notes based on the Chinese instructions. terminal 1 was s2 and terminal 2 was s1 and I labeled and therefor connected the existing wires to the cnc wrong. That's why I used bullet connections....whoops.

Alignment is still slightly off, but I can do a toolchange now and, although the S3 sensor wire does show up in the PLC diagnostics screens on the Syntec controller, I seem to be able to do the toolchange without it, and I think I tested with the sensor output energized and not energized. But, so far so good.

I will bring the VFD manual home with me and see what I can learn if I can't use the existing due to poor documentation.

[gfacer]

from another post here google turned up:

http://ftp.gongkong.com/UploadFile/d...4301800001.pdf

this is apparently the VFD manual (or a similar model) in Chinese. It can go to 1500hz so If I can figure out what to change I will be golden.

I'll compare what VFD stuff I know with what parts of the chinese I can read, and go from there.

[mactec54]

I will work on that, but I assume that the Chinese assume the spindle is bolted to the frame and the frame (I hope!) is grounded somewhere. If I test that theory with a continuity check, would that be enough or another way to ask is what is the precise benefits of the ground wire running all the way to the spindle.....be curious to know as I will have to run it up the chain myself.

Attached are the specs from the sticker on the spindle and the VFD that is in the cabinet now.....no instructions that I have or can find on that so I do have a new VFD to install if needed.

No You can not just have it Ground through the machine frame it must have a Ground wire, if you look at the photo you posted there is what looks to be a Ground screw

[gfacer]

from another post here google turned up:

http://ftp.gongkong.com/UploadFile/d...4301800001.pdf

this is apparently the VFD manual (or a similar model) in Chinese. It can go to 1500hz so If I can figure out what to change I will be golden.

I'll compare what VFD stuff I know with what parts of the chinese I can read, and go from there.

I'm having some luck with OCR processing bits of the original manual and running through Google translate. Slow going though, but I expect to know what bits to change by tomorrow.

The original manual doesn't have Chinese text that can be cut and pasted, that's the reason for the OCR, but the same process would work with paper documents.



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[gfacer]

So

I am using the tools online to piece together what I need to know. This is a good method for any chinese-only manuals.

Google translate didn't work, apparently as the font's unicode information wasn't in the PDF. anything copy and pasted was mostly gibberish (except for the english bits)

So, the best technique seems to be:
1) find the bits of the manual you want to translate, and take a picture of the section.....for formatting, smaller sections might be better. In particular, this PDF has two pages from the manual as one PDF page, which makes it hard to know if the translation is working from one section to the next as expected.

2) Then find a website that can OCR the picture into simplified Chinese (I am assuming it's simplified), and process the picture.
I'm using i2ocr.com

3) Take the OCR text output and then that will get into google translate.

So far, for parameters to set I think I need to:
Change or check parameter 01-00 needs to be set at 0 (IF it is currently zero. This is the low side of the 0-10V signal the control sends)
Whoops, that looks wrong:
Change Parameter 01-00 to max frequency (800hz)
Change Parameter 01-01 to max frequency (800hz)
Check Parameter 01-05 to see what the min output frequency is at. Range is .1-20 I think any of those would work ok
(This I think is the min value of the 0-10v input signal, NOT 01-00)
Check Parameter 01-06, should be 20 for the 380v version I am running.
Change parameter 01-07 to be the max frequency safety limit, (800hz)
Change parameter 01-08 to be the lower frequency safety limit, I will probably use 200hz for that putting my lower limit at 6000rpm to be safe
(and remember this has a separate electric cooling fan not spindle mounted, and I will almost never go this slow in use)
Change Parameter 07-04 to 4, the number of poles in the motor.

If I look at the typical huangyang settings posted (usually by Mactec54), and assuming my VFD was set up ok from the factory which I will sort of assume is good enough given the machine is 10 years in use, then I think the above changes are it....but two others that I am a little unsure of:

Parameter 03-04 translates as "Arbitrary arrival frequency setting 0. 0-1500 range, factory setting of Hz 0.0",
Parameter 01-14 translates as" Vivid running frequency setting 0.0-1500.0 Hz range, factory setting of 6.0
These I will check the values of.

And of course, check if the parameters are locked or not, which is 00-02. I don't think I will lock them after the changes either as the VFD is very much out of site and mind most of the time.


Any comments welcome!

[gfacer]

OK,

Doing this.

00-02 was 00 value so nothing was locked
01-00 was 400, changed to 800
01-01 was 401 changed to 800
01-05 was 20, left at 20
01-06 was 1, changed to 20
01-07 was 400, changed to 800, where is maxed out I notice.....
01-08 was 0, changed to 200
01-14 was 6 (the factory default), left at 6
03-04 was 0 (factory default), left at 0

OK, it works!.....on the high end. I did not successfully limit the low end to 6000rpm, but nor were the value of the 0-10v input off, so either 01-8 wasn't the lower limit or there are two places I need to set it......not sure.

[mactec54]

So

I am using the tools online to piece together what I need to know. This is a good method for any chinese-only manuals.

Google translate didn't work, apparently as the font's unicode information wasn't in the PDF. anything copy and pasted was mostly gibberish (except for the english bits)

So, the best technique seems to be:
1) find the bits of the manual you want to translate, and take a picture of the section.....for formatting, smaller sections might be better. In particular, this PDF has two pages from the manual as one PDF page, which makes it hard to know if the translation is working from one section to the next as expected.

2) Then find a website that can OCR the picture into simplified Chinese (I am assuming it's simplified), and process the picture.
I'm using i2ocr.com

3) Take the OCR text output and then that will get into google translate.

So far, for parameters to set I think I need to:
Change or check parameter 01-00 needs to be set at 0 (IF it is currently zero. This is the low side of the 0-10V signal the control sends)
Whoops, that looks wrong:
Change Parameter 01-00 to max frequency (800hz)
Change Parameter 01-01 to max frequency (800hz)
Check Parameter 01-05 to see what the min output frequency is at. Range is .1-20 I think any of those would work ok
(This I think is the min value of the 0-10v input signal, NOT 01-00)
Check Parameter 01-06, should be 20 for the 380v version I am running.
Change parameter 01-07 to be the max frequency safety limit, (800hz)
Change parameter 01-08 to be the lower frequency safety limit, I will probably use 200hz for that putting my lower limit at 6000rpm to be safe
(and remember this has a separate electric cooling fan not spindle mounted, and I will almost never go this slow in use)
Change Parameter 07-04 to 4, the number of poles in the motor.

If I look at the typical huangyang settings posted (usually by Mactec54), and assuming my VFD was set up ok from the factory which I will sort of assume is good enough given the machine is 10 years in use, then I think the above changes are it....but two others that I am a little unsure of:

Parameter 03-04 translates as "Arbitrary arrival frequency setting 0. 0-1500 range, factory setting of Hz 0.0",
Parameter 01-14 translates as" Vivid running frequency setting 0.0-1500.0 Hz range, factory setting of 6.0
These I will check the values of.

And of course, check if the parameters are locked or not, which is 00-02. I don't think I will lock them after the changes either as the VFD is very much out of site and mind most of the time.


Any comments welcome!

Yes you are doing ok it's hard to translate sometimes as sometimes what you get won't make any sense as some characters won't translate at all into anything related to what is written

[gfacer]

So are so good. Spaced my toolholders up 1 mm / .040" and it mostly ok.....was a little rough on tool 5 but changed out the fork and seemed ok.

Still has a bit of a weird electrical buzzing that is higher pitched and or less pronounced at higher rpm, and not really noticable with cutting, but seems odd as neither my small machines 2.2kw spindle nor my HSD make any such noise.

Cut quality seems really nice, can't recall how new the bit was for the final finish cut though, so I'll reserve judgement on that but overall a positive review for day 1 of use.

Breaking speed seems fine too, and is overall seeming more consistent that the HSD's behavior was

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[gfacer]

My bad,

I did have the lower limit set and working.

An F reading on the inverter (VFD) is the input frequency which I saw hadn't changed, but the H reading is the output frequency, which was at 200hz as it should have been.

I also forgot to set 07-04 to 4 poles, so did that, although nothing noticeable changed.

[mactec54]

My bad,

I did have the lower limit set and working.

An F reading on the inverter (VFD) is the input frequency which I saw hadn't changed, but the H reading is the output frequency, which was at 200hz as it should have been.

I also forgot to set 07-04 to 4 poles, so did that, although nothing noticeable changed.

Your small spindles are running at 400Hz 800Hz is a big step up see if you can find the Carrier Frequency Parameter if you can then you could change this up to 10 this will help with the noise once you find it you can experiment with different numbers even higher, but keep a check on the spindle Temperature as you go higher with this Parameter setting

[gfacer]

So, it seems there is an issue.

The spindle will, so far at the spin up stage, seemingly lose all power for a few seconds and then soon get back on track and get up to speed again.

I had one program where I had two S commands a few lines apart (one for the new tool change and one for the start of a segment), and it did it once there. I thought that could be programming related, although it didn't repeat with an empty table.

No such programming issue just now where it actually spun up and down and up again twice before settling at running speed. At the beginning of the file.

I am now suspecting it could be a under current situation maybe....or maybe it's just a loose wire or something too, which would suck to diagnose.

My HSD spindle also did this but very rarely, once every 6 months maybe. So far the Chinese one is more frequent but also seems to be on only on the spin up to speed times. the HSD sometimes just lost power randomly.

Any ideas welcome.



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[mactec54]

So, it seems there is an issue.

The spindle will, so far at the spin up stage, seemingly lose all power for a few seconds and then soon get back on track and get up to speed again.

I had one program where I had two S commands a few lines apart (one for the new tool change and one for the start of a segment), and it did it once there. I thought that could be programming related, although it didn't repeat with an empty table.

No such programming issue just now where it actually spun up and down and up again twice before settling at running speed. At the beginning of the file.

I am now suspecting it could be a under current situation maybe....or maybe it's just a loose wire or something too, which would suck to diagnose.

My HSD spindle also did this but very rarely, once every 6 months maybe. So far the Chinese one is more frequent but also seems to be on only on the spin up to speed times. the HSD sometimes just lost power randomly.

Any ideas welcome.



Sent from my motorola one using Tapatalk

VFD Drive Programing will cause this, middle frequency middle voltage may need to be setup for this spindle

[gfacer]

So, Yeah....I have to get on the HSD repair. The spindle is still sometimes not fully spinning up. As a kludge, having a 10 second pause after a speed command might do the trick even with the odd time of TWO failures to spin up where it tries and then spins right down and tries again.

I have not tried the middle frequency change as of yet but will try soon.

However, the temperature that the spindle is at is in my mind too hot after a few hours of cutting. The fan isn't keeping up with the cooling it would seem at a minimum and probably the motor is just getting too hot.

I'm also still hearing an odd almost audio-static type sound when the spindle is running.....if it's particularly noticeable on start up I might have the spin up/down/up issue. Not sure the cause but it's enough to firmly have this spindle in long-term backup position and get the HSD fixed and back on the table.

Unfortunately, then, I won't have a long term review of this spindle, longer than a month or two anyways. I'll post again with any new details such as what the middle voltage change does.

[gfacer]

Your small spindles are running at 400Hz 800Hz is a big step up see if you can find the Carrier Frequency Parameter if you can then you could change this up to 10 this will help with the noise once you find it you can experiment with different numbers even higher, but keep a check on the spindle Temperature as you go higher with this Parameter setting

After quite a bit of re-digging through the manual and OCR/Translate work, it seems 02-04 parameter is the carrier frequency and it has a range of 2-18hz.

As I write this I don't know what value the VFD has although the manual I think says factory setting is 15.....but of course the motor is getting hot, so maybe moving it down might be better? I googled carrier frequency in the process, and I have to say the noise doesn't seem like what is described in my search results.

The closest thing it sounds like is a router where the brushes are starting to fail....not quite as bad as that, but has some similarities.

01-04 is the intermediate frequency setting.....manual factory setting shows a value of 20V for 380v motor, which is the same as the lowest output voltage I selected in parameter 01-06....so what should this be? I am guessing something like 01-03 (intermediate frequency) at 400hz and 01-04 at 190v and which is half of the max values for each (Param 01-01 and 01-02). Looking above, I am not sure I checked or set the max voltage in 01-02 although one would presume it was already set to the proper max. of 380

Is there an issue with setting the intermediate frequency the same as my min frequency at 400hz?

[mactec54]

After quite a bit of re-digging through the manual and OCR/Translate work, it seems 02-04 parameter is the carrier frequency and it has a range of 2-18hz.

As I write this I don't know what value the VFD has although the manual I think says factory setting is 15.....but of course the motor is getting hot, so maybe moving it down might be better? I googled carrier frequency in the process, and I have to say the noise doesn't seem like what is described in my search results.

The closest thing it sounds like is a router where the brushes are starting to fail....not quite as bad as that, but has some similarities.

01-04 is the intermediate frequency setting.....manual factory setting shows a value of 20V for 380v motor, which is the same as the lowest output voltage I selected in parameter 01-06....so what should this be? I am guessing something like 01-03 (intermediate frequency) at 400hz and 01-04 at 190v and which is half of the max values for each (Param 01-01 and 01-02). Looking above, I am not sure I checked or set the max voltage in 01-02 although one would presume it was already set to the proper max. of 380

Is there an issue with setting the intermediate frequency the same as my min frequency at 400hz?

Yes this will affect the performance of the motor, intermediate Frequency has to work with the intermediate Voltage, Voltage to Hz ratio must match this is how you calculate these parameters using Voltage to Hz Ratio

Yes you can lower the Carrier Frequency this can affect the temperature so you move it in small steps it seems to be too high where it is

[gfacer]

So, the latest.

Had one spin up spin down issue over the day.....so an improvement maybe but maybe too early to know. Once thing I suspect is that it might be hitting a current limit or something?

The actual carrier frequency was set at 5 (not 15 as per factory manual default) so I did try moving up to 10, and it does sound better.

And, either it helped with the heat or my work wasn't long enough for heat to be an issue.....either answer is good as I don't have multi hour jobs that often. It did ok with one job in the 45-60 min range.




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[mactec54]

So, the latest.

Had one spin up spin down issue over the day.....so an improvement maybe but maybe too early to know. Once thing I suspect is that it might be hitting a current limit or something?

The actual carrier frequency was set at 5 (not 15 as per factory manual default) so I did try moving up to 10, and it does sound better.

And, either it helped with the heat or my work wasn't long enough for heat to be an issue.....either answer is good as I don't have multi hour jobs that often. It did ok with one job in the 45-60 min range.




Sent from my motorola one using Tapatalk

Carrier Frequency has nothing to do with spin up so if you have some problem in that area then first look at acceleration and deceleration times, the Mid voltage and Mid frequency Parameters, Draw a graph and plot these 2 parameters or calculate voltage to Hz ratio

Yes 5 was too low 8 to 10 is about right, for a 400Hz spindle so you may be able to go to 12, just watch the Temperature if you do

[gfacer]

So far, just the one spin down issue in a couple of days use....so an improvement. Heat seems to be an issue for jobs 1.25-1.5 hours or longer at a guess and even a little bit of a pause between jobs helps. I ran sheets that took about 8 mins cutting and 2-3 min to change over sheets and it was fine for hours. So, changing the carrier frequency hasn't seemingly changed the heat issue in any major fashion.

I might bump up the intermediate voltage a bit and see if that gets rid of any last spin down issues.... I really just have values that would be in line with zero,zero and Max RPM and Max Voltage. So maybe change from 190V at 400hz to 210V at 400hz.....

As it is, if your machine can use one of these even as a quick change (ATC not the easiest thing to retrofit), they are a great price and better than a Chinese wrench change spindle.

[mactec54]

So far, just the one spin down issue in a couple of days use....so an improvement. Heat seems to be an issue for jobs 1.25-1.5 hours or longer at a guess and even a little bit of a pause between jobs helps. I ran sheets that took about 8 mins cutting and 2-3 min to change over sheets and it was fine for hours. So, changing the carrier frequency hasn't seemingly changed the heat issue in any major fashion.

I might bump up the intermediate voltage a bit and see if that gets rid of any last spin down issues.... I really just have values that would be in line with zero,zero and Max RPM and Max Voltage. So maybe change from 190V at 400hz to 210V at 400hz.....

As it is, if your machine can use one of these even as a quick change (ATC not the easiest thing to retrofit), they are a great price and better than a Chinese wrench change spindle.

What is your max Power supply voltage this will determine the intermediate Voltage and intermediate Frequency V / F ratio must match

There is no such thing as Zero speed setting for these spindles they have a minimum speed and a Max speed and from this you can then set the intermediate Parameters

[gfacer]

Just a quick update on this.

Spindle is still going 1 year or so in. I don't worry about the heat any longer, although it is certainly hotter than the HSD was.

Still have some issues of the spindle with a "noisy" start and then stop. twice as often at the beginning of a program than after a tool change. The best solution for me is to try and listen for the "noise" and then I will go and pause the machine as the spindle will stop after a while and then (usually) spin up properly the 2nd time 5% of the time or less that might be a 3rd times the charm process.

There are some instances where I stop the program and spindle and restart manually....if it sounds rough but doesn't actually fault out and stop and try again.

Maybe if I was using the new VFD that came with it, none of these issues would exist....not sure, but that's the update as I am using it.

I should, at some point, either send in my HSD or get a 2nd chinese knock off as a spare......haven't decided that yet.