Reply with QuoteTooling is expensive, R8 can handle 2 or 3 horse power OK. So the only real use is if you are going for an ATC.
I speced my manual RF40 with an ISO30. I wish I hadn't. Thought I was being clever. Ya well.
Regards
Phil
Originally Posted by wildcat
ISO 30 Spindle
Anyone else see the following? What is your opinion on replacing the R8 spindle with this one?
http://www.industrialhobbies.com/Products/spindle.htm
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Tooling is expensive, R8 can handle 2 or 3 horse power OK. So the only real use is if you are going for an ATC.
I speced my manual RF40 with an ISO30. I wish I hadn't. Thought I was being clever. Ya well.
Regards
Phil
I haven't brought any tooling yet and it said while supplies last so I ordered it already.
I'm probably not going to do an ATC but I plan on using more the one endmill when I'm cncing. So this and a power drawbar would make changes very quick.
There are ways of achieving quick change tooling with an R8. Have you priced an ISO30 endmill holder. ISO30 has come down in price in recent years, but still I think it is more expensive and hard to find.
What did you pay for the spindle.
Regards
Phil
I haven't brought any tooling yet and it said while supplies last so I ordered it already
I'm probably not going to do an ATC but I plan on using more the one endmill when I'm cncing. So this and a power drawbar would make changes very quick.
i bought my ISO 30 spindle as well. it was only $65, and they should fit all the square column mills. i am waiting for aaron to release the torque procedure for the angular contact bearings, for the spindle, as well as the belt drive setup to all me to run up to 4500 RPM.
then i plan on building and ATC. this iso spindle will be pretty slick, i can't wait to get it assembled.
The spindle is $65 and in the kbc catalog the holders are between $95-$105 for collis and $35-$43 for the kbc ones.
Did you speak to Aaron about this, did he give you idea of when and how he's going to do this? Thanks.
$65, is that for a complete spindle assembly, including bearings, or just the "central" spindle shaft.
Looks to me like you should evaluate the price for alternative quick change systems, including tooling, before you make the switch to ISO 30.
Phil
Am I missing something? Sixty-five dollars for an industrial quality spindle? Add two bearings and a little work and you've got a first-class tool change system. The last time I checked, tool holders were available for $30 on up to over $100. Compare the quality of the spindle that Aaron is offering to the hobby-class R8 quick-change systems others are offering. Compare the size of the tools that can be used with the various systems. I'm just not aware of a 'downside'. It seems to me that if R8 is good enough, then all of us who own an IH mill already have that. For those of us who would prefer a heavy-duty quick change system so that we can pre-set tool lengths and change tools in a matter of seconds, then Aaron's system would be a perfect match. The other 'systems' on the market look light-weight to me, better suited to light cuts and smaller tooling.
says it all...
dad used to say... "once is ignorance. the second time you're stupid!"
I bought one. I expect the NMTB 30 will be a bit more rigid, and the idea of a toolchanger is nice, but the main reason is I want to build a belt drive without taking the gear head out of service. At the rate I complete my projects, I would get the gear head disassembled, need to do more milling and change the design, and just get stuck for years. Building a simpler head around this spindle, I can have a working mill at all times to facilitate.
I'm going to set it up to take the larger sized motor right out of the box without having to turn the shaft down. I'll probably just build it so I can bolt it up to the column in place of the existing IH head. I'm expecting to build it out of 1" aluminum plate so I don't have to worry about the metal warping at all. Should be a fun project. I will eliminate the quill as well, to wind up with a CNC-only head.
Best,
BW
What does the ISO 30 give you:
1) A tooling system designed for 5 to 10 hp on a 2 hp machine.
2) Additional rigidity. Have you concluded that the mill is rigid enough to benefit from IOS 30. R8 is good enough for a Bridgeport.
3) A quick change system. Not until you add a powered draw bar. But then you could add a powered draw bar to your current R8 system.
4) Repeatable Z axis location for pre-set tool locations Don't you have this with R8 tooling, the taper angles are similar. Agreed not with and R8 collet style quick change, but then you don't have the possibility of even using collets with an ISO 30 in the first place, or do you.
Will a light weight mill like a 2hp square column bench mill really benefit from ISO 30, why not ISO 50, or are you better off spending your time, money and energy elsewhere.
Just some questions from a novice trying to understand, so please correct my understanding, don't roast me.
Regards
Phil
Lots of questions here. Let me give you my response in no particular order.What does the ISO 30 give you:
1) A tooling system designed for 5 to 10 hp on a 2 hp machine.
2) Additional rigidity. Have you concluded that the mill is rigid enough to benefit from IOS 30. R8 is good enough for a Bridgeport.
3) A quick change system. Not until you add a powered draw bar. But then you could add a powered draw bar to your current R8 system.
4) Repeatable Z axis location for pre-set tool locations Don't you have this with R8 tooling, the taper angles are similar. Agreed not with and R8 collet style quick change, but then you don't have the possibility of even using collets with an ISO 30 in the first place, or do you.
Will a light weight mill like a 2hp square column bench mill really benefit from ISO 30, why not ISO 50, or are you better off spending your time, money and energy elsewhere.
Just some questions from a novice trying to understand, so please correct my understanding, don't roast me.
Regards
Phil
First of all, if you plan to spend your time and energy elsewhere, where else would you choose to spend it? At about $165 for the spindle with bearings, and with the desire I already mentioned to build a new head that runs higher rpms, it's hard for me to see how I go wrong on this deal.
It has been argued that ISO 30 is real expensive compared to R8. It is definitely more expensive, but I don't see it as hugely more expensive. Enco wants $39 for a 1/2" 30 taper mill holder and $31 for an R8. The stuff is available, you just have to look a little harder. In addition, you can purchase an NMTB 30 to R8 adapter so you can still run any R8 tooling you may have. They are not expensive, and will make a nice transition if you already have some tooling in hand or want to keep the option to have access to the bigger range of R8 products available.
RE rigidity and why not a 40 taper or even a 50? Well, there are not 40 and 50 taper spindles for sale a this price, but there is a 30. I'll take the 30, because as I said, I think it is a great price and I do believe 30 is an improvement over the R8.
Wasn't r8 good enough for Bridgeport? No, evidently not. Even they moved away from it on their light CNC machines as did most of the rest of the market. R8 was designed a LONG time ago and there have been better ideas since. Better ideas than this 30 too, but as I say, 30 is what's for sale, so that's what I'm buying.
Is a bench mill rigid enough to take advantage of a 30 taper? Well, we won't know if we don't try, eh? I will say that a lot of folks told me this machine wouldn't be able to cut much due to rigidity, poor tolerances, and general bad Chinese practices. I have so far found that has been a lot of poppycock. I can take a 1" roughing endmill and use it successfully to cut mild steel without chatter at recommended feeds and speeds for the cutter. I have had to crank up feedrates to uncomfortable hand cranking speeds with aluminum because I can't spin the cutter fast enough with the gear head. I am not seeing much evidence of rigidity problems here, and there is certainly quite a lot of mass. I would say the odds are good that we can benefit from the 30 taper.
You can have a quick change just as easily with R8 and a powered drawbar. True. That's why I'm busy finishing up a powered drawbar as we speak. I expect it will work great with the 30 taper as well. However, a toolchange system is a different proposition. The flange and bigger seating base are going to work worlds better with any kind of automated toolchanger than R8. The flange is going to give the tool a fixed place to sit in the carousel that is lacking with R8 tooling unless you do something nonstandard that requires you to fabricate it, or unless you buy something like the Tormach Tooling System and then build a changer for that.
Don't you have repeatable z-axis with R8? No, definitely not! It's that pesky flange on the ISO 30 (and other tapers made for the CNC world). It locates how far into the bore the holder can go. There is no such feature on an R8, and the holder's travel into the bore is going to be a function of how precisely you can repeat the drawbar tightening exercise. In the end, not very good repeatability at all. The quick change systems designed for R8, like the Tormach Tooling System, add a mechanism to index the holder in Z each time you insert a new one.
Speaking of the Tormach Tooling System, that seems like a comparison to make as well. Additional holders are cheaper--$20 for an additional 1/2" holder. However, the initial system is $600. I believe I can build my new head for quite a bit less than that and I wind up with a lot more benefit than what I get just with the TTS. Hard to believe that R8 with the additional contrivance levered off the end would be nearly as rigid as the 30 Taper, however. Their operating manual specifically cautions against anything but light cutting operations with cutters more than 1/2". I will say again, I have used a 1" roughing end mill successfully on the IH mill in an R8 mill holder, and that's only going to get better with a 30 taper.
Let's not pick on Tormach though. Their tooling system is innovative and well designed. Virtually all of the tooling systems that convert R8 to quick change have the same caveat. You will lose some Z-travel with the contraption on the end of the R8 and you will lose some significant rigidity. I see this 30 taper as a way to avoid those disadvantages while picking up significant advantages. And I do have sufficient experience with this mill to be concerned that a loss of rigidity in the tooling system would be felt.
BTW, did I mention that the price is right?
I mean c'mon, buy one and set it aside for possible future use. What else can you buy for $65 that is nearly as interesting to debate?
I just got off the phone with Aaron. He has just shipped mine out today. I was ordering a set of optical limits. It's going to be summer before I get around to installing my CNC conversion on the mill at the rate I'm going, and I wanted to get them before he closes his doors altogether. Very nice fellow to talk to. Seems quite excited about the future, and a bit melanchology to be leaving IH behind.
Best,
BW
An ISO 30 taper is a lot more rigid that other tooling systems, 40-50% of the tool holder goes through the lower bearing. Other tooling systems like to see how far they can push it out from the lower spindle. Can you say chatter?
Repeatability is improved over an R8 because of the increased taper.
Ejectability is improved. If you think about it for a while you can make an ATC out of a power drawbar and a tray of tools. R8 doesn’t eject.
ISO is a lot bigger than an individual manufacturer, so if someone goes out of business, it’s not an issue.
Bison tool holders (available from Enco) are made in Poland and are cheap. Poland makes better tools than China.
Lastly, R8 was developed by Bridgeport as a proprietary holder, why use a standard when you can do something different and make money on the accessories, or the licensing of the design?
Aaron Moss
www.IndustrialHobbies.com
Not on the ISO 30 spindle in my manual machine, and it doesn't appear to be designed to. I can see the taper between the flange and the spindle. The Z axis location appears to be determined by the taper not the flange. I thought that it was only tapers like the HSK that have both flange and taper contact.
Is the IH spindle designed for dual contact location? Whats the cost of HSK tooling.
I'm still learning.
Regards
Phil
ISO 30 isn't dual contact like HSK or Tormach style holders.
To get repeatability you need a drawbar that always excerts a consistent force. So if you use an impact wrench style drawbar you will not be able to get exact Z heights each time you change tools.
The flange on CNC versions of the holder has notches in it to engage with the dogs on the spindle. If you don't have dogs on your spindle you can have problems slipping under heavy loads e.g. drilling or tapping.
I'm still learning also, so please excuse my lack of knowledge. Someone asked about getting a spindle, some bearings and switching over to a belt system a few weeks ago. And you suggested spending $550 on the tormach spindle cartridge which is R8 but $65 for a iso 30 spindle and $100 for bearings is too expensive? Am I missing something?
If this is the case, why use ground ballscrews (not talking about them being from China) instead of rolled? Will the proposed slight benefit be noticeable on these, as you put it, light weight mills?2) Additional rigidity. Have you concluded that the mill is rigid enough to benefit from IOS 30. R8 is good enough for a Bridgeport.
Will a light weight mill like a 2hp square column bench mill really benefit from ISO 30, why not ISO 50, or are you better off spending your time, money and energy elsewhere.
Just some questions from a novice trying to understand, so please correct my understanding, don't roast me.
Regards
Phil
I think you have misunderstood the context of the post that you quote.
The post that the quote was an answer too identified the Tormach drive system as a possible system the poster was interested in. I suggested nothing, I merely pointed out that he could buy the spindle for $550. I was trying to be helpful. In any case an IH spindle converted to ISO 30 would not have resolved his particular issues. If you read the post that I was replying too and then read my post I think all will be revealed.
I'm not entirely sure what your point is regarding ground or rolled ball screws in relation to the attached quotes?
Regards
Phil
It’s the taper that determines the depth of the tool is every case. The flange should never contact the nose of the spindle. What makes it repeatable is the taper is a lot shallower than R8 plus there is a bigger contact area.
Aaron Moss
www.IndustrialHobbies.com
the difference in the tapers between R8 and the ISO 30 is that the ISO 30 is solid and not used for clamping, therefore you get a repeatable positive metal to metal stop everytime. with R8 collets you tighten the drawbar and pull the collet further up into the head. this pulling will affect the z- measurement all the time.
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