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Thread: ISO 30 Spindle

  1. #21
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    Hi Aaron, I think you are mistaken on the taper. A R8 taper has a 16.5 degree included angle. An ISO 30 has a 7:24 taper which gives an included angle of 16.26 degrees. This is confirmed by a visual comparison of the two. Interestingly the major diameter of the taper (the business end) in both cases is 1.25". So the only significant difference is the actual length of the taper, which is approximately twice that of the R8. In favour of the R8 is the fact that it is also supported at it top end, which makes the overall supported length twice that of the IOS 30. I'm not convinced that the increased taper length gives you any useful increase in Z-axis repeatability, especially when you take into account the actual repeatability of the z-axis itself, and the requirement for higher tolerance on the taper if its going to maintain contact over it entire length.

    I will check the repeatability of the R8 when I get a chance. Also maybe I can come up with a set-up that will allow me to check the repeatability of the ISO 30 on my manual machine.

    I have to say that when I lay the two along side each other, and look at the business part only, the ISO 30 doesn't look some much more impressive.

    Regards
    Phil


    Quote Originally Posted by IndHobby View Post
    It’s the taper that determines the depth of the tool is every case. The flange should never contact the nose of the spindle. What makes it repeatable is the taper is a lot shallower than R8 plus there is a bigger contact area.




  2. #22
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    Yes but the proposal is not to use collets but solid R8 tool holders in order to achieve some order of repeatability comparable with the ISO 30.

    Regards
    Phil

    Quote Originally Posted by Runner4404spd View Post
    the difference in the tapers between R8 and the ISO 30 is that the ISO 30 is solid and not used for clamping, therefore you get a repeatable positive metal to metal stop everytime. with R8 collets you tighten the drawbar and pull the collet further up into the head. this pulling will affect the z- measurement all the time.




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    Poor Philbur. He has the ISO 30, but wants an R8. He wants it so badly he'll take anyone who has an R8 and wants an ISO 30 to task.

    At this point, there does not seem to be much useful additional information being contributed, just back and forth on minor definitions.

    Sorry you didn't get what you wanted, Philbur. I hope that ISO 30 didn't cost you too much extra.

    BW



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    More inaccurate information. My current machine has a R8, read the posts. The machine I am soon to sell has ISO 30. Wana buy it. Ill gives you a good price.

    No additional useful information - for whom?

    Minor definitions? - which post are you referring to.

    The start of this thread said:
    .............................................

    ISO 30 Spindle - Anyone else see the following? What is your opinion on replacing the R8 spindle with this one?
    ............................................

    I'm giving my opinion (and facts) on the subject of the thread, Your opinions appear to be getting personal?

    Regards
    Phil


    Quote Originally Posted by BobWarfield View Post
    Poor Philbur. He has the ISO 30, but wants an R8. He wants it so badly he'll take anyone who has an R8 and wants an ISO 30 to task.

    At this point, there does not seem to be much useful additional information being contributed, just back and forth on minor definitions.

    Sorry you didn't get what you wanted, Philbur. I hope that ISO 30 didn't cost you too much extra.

    BW




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    Phil,
    I did a Google search on ISO 30 tools and got 775 hits. Not all of them were about ISO 30 tools, but a good percentage were. What is more important to me is that specific data about the ISO 30 tool holder was easily obtainable. I only spent an hour reading a small part of the available information, but that short time convinced me that installing the 30 spindle would be a major advantage over the R8, to me, even in a manual mill. What I'm looking for and what you're looking for in a tool holder may be completely different, so I won't list the advantages, as I see them; however, after a few minutes reading, you'll be able to decide whether the ISO 30 tooling would be an advantage over the tooling that you now use.



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    Can you give a couple of the best links.

    Regards
    Phil

    Quote Originally Posted by Richards View Post
    Phil,
    I did a Google search on ISO 30 tools and got 775 hits. Not all of them were about ISO 30 tools, but a good percentage were. What is more important to me is that specific data about the ISO 30 tool holder was easily obtainable. I only spent an hour reading a small part of the available information, but that short time convinced me that installing the 30 spindle would be a major advantage over the R8, to me, even in a manual mill. What I'm looking for and what you're looking for in a tool holder may be completely different, so I won't list the advantages, as I see them; however, after a few minutes reading, you'll be able to decide whether the ISO 30 tooling would be an advantage over the tooling that you now use.




  7. #27
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    Phil,
    It's kind of like doing your own homework. If I do it for you, I get the benefit of looking and learning.

    Just do a Google search of the words ISO 30 tools, or maybe, ISO 30 tool holders, and you'll get page after page of listings. On the first few pages of listings, using the search terms, ISO 30 tool holders, I found a technical guide, machine taper specifications, PDS Colombo information (the spindle that I use on my CNC router).

    Back in 1967, when I first entered University, I was totally captivated by the large university library. Until that time, I had only visited small community libraries that were mostly filled with fiction. For the first time in my life, I could roam through acre after acre of books that gave almost unlimited information on any subject that I wanted to learn about. I spent every available minute in that library searching and reading and comparing information. Years later, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, when the personal computer first became available and my interests turned to process control, I often drove 810 miles each way from my home in Salt Lake City, Utah to San Jose, California to browse the book stores that specialized in computers and computer science. It took a little effort and a little money, but getting the information was worth the trouble. Now, with the Internet, that huge university library and those specialized book stores look like the little quaint community libraries of my youth. Turn on your computer, wade in and start clicking.



  8. #28
    Gold Member BobWarfield's Avatar
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    Some advantages of NMTB 30 over R8 not yet mentioned:

    - It is shorter, and hence may require less mill head motion to change tools. This may also be helpful if clearances are tight.

    - Does away with the little drive pin used by R8. I fine this a pain to line up when I change tools. The big locators on the NMTB 30 flange are much easier to line up. Getting a tool change to work with that pin automatically on R8 would be painful.

    - Tooling ejects without requiring a whack on the drawbar. Faster for manual changes, better for automatic changes.

    - According to the second PM link below, it takes about 3/4 turn of the drawbar to tighten or eject an NMTB 30 holder. Fewer turns, no need for a hammer whack, no need to line up a drive pin, all adds up to faster manual changes even without a power drawbar.

    When the question came up on PM, not one single poster recommended the R8 even though it was cheaper:

    http://www.cnczone.com/cg...c/1/9503.html?

    RE alternate quick change systems:

    http://www.cnczone.com/cg...c/1/8972.html?

    Wherein people like Forrest Addy find aftermarket quickchange systems to be "marginal at best" for reasons of rigidity. Forrest goes on to say R8 is "barely adequate". If you look at the cost of these quick change systems vs $165 for this spindle and bearings, I can't see why that makes any sense at all. This is the post that says it takes 3/4 turn on the drawbar to drop the holder.

    http://www.cnczone.com/ub...17.html#000000

    "If I had $15K to burn on a new mill, I would never go for R8" in response to the query R8 versus NMTB 30 or 40 for a new mill purchaser. No dissents.

    http://www.cnczone.com/ub...33.html#000020

    "I would reccommend a #30 milling taper in some common variant (R-8 spindles are SO lame)"

    "My thoughts too. Why on earth would you want a super mill that uses Model T toolholding?

    The only redeeming factor for an R-8 spindle is the wide availability of tooling at low cost. Tooling a 30 Taper machine costs more because of the greater amount of material used to make the toolholder. For that same reason, those toolholders offer less deflection & greater accuracy than an R-8."

    http://www.cnczone.com/ub...27.html#000009

    "R8 means lots of tooling available, but the holding power of the taper is just adequate for the machine. The NMTB30 is a more robust taper and will allow heavier cuts, but the tooling is a bit more expensive."

    These posts just go on and on from machinists familiar with both tapers.

    Philbur, not sure why you are so touchy, but I am glad to hear you do have an R8 machine after all and need not have the 30 taper darken your door for much longer.

    I am at least equally as pleased that Aaron has made these spindles available at a reasonable price. I'm really looking forward to the upgrade.

    Best,

    BW



  9. #29
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    Come on you know this is the same thing again. You say my reason for claiming ISO 30 is best is out there somewhere in 700 odd links. You use this argument to support your case, so give the references. Give me facts, don't tell me imy reasons are out there somewhere, go and look them it.

    Jesus was black. If you google you will see I'm correct. Thats a no brainer.

    Regards
    Phil

    Quote Originally Posted by Richards View Post
    Phil,
    It's kind of like doing your own homework. If I do it for you, I get the benefit of looking and learning.




  10. #30
    Gold Member BobWarfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by philbur View Post
    Come on you know this is the same thing again. You say my reason for claiming ISO 30 is best is out there somewhere in 700 odd links. You use this argument to support your case, so give the references. Give me facts, don't tell me imy reasons are out there somewhere, go and look them it.

    Jesus was black. If you google you will see I'm correct. Thats a no brainer.

    Regards
    Phil
    Why Phil, I thought you said you were here to learn? Go read some links. Learning to be had out there.

    Sincerely,

    BW



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    Yes but which out of the 700 hundred. Give me a break.

    Regards
    Phil

    Quote Originally Posted by BobWarfield View Post
    Why Phil, I thought you said you were here to learn? Go read some links. Learning to be had out there.

    Sincerely,

    BW




  12. #32
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    Phil,
    You must be royalty. You might ask your manservant for help; however, if you want to learn something, be prepared to work for it. Knowledge is a treasure buried everywhere, including books, articles, data sheets, and web sites. Like any buried treasure, you're going to have to dig for it.

    -Mike



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    Well I’m glad you have at least made an attempt to return to a rational discussion, but a little bit dissapointed you still feel it is necessary to finish with a cheap shot. So lets discuss your rational points.

    Firstly I have taken the liberty of modified your sketch to more clearly reflect the area under discussion. See below. The flange is only there to engage the dogs.

    Secondly the thread is not “is ISO 30 better than R8” the thread is about should I bother to change my R8 for a ISO 30 bearing in mind I am not interested in the possibility of ATC.

    Now lets discuss your specific points:

    “- It is shorter, and hence may require less mill head motion to change tools. This may also be helpful if clearances are tight.”

    Agreed but hardly a clincher.

    “- Does away with the little drive pin used by R8. I fine this a pain to line up when I change tools. The big locators on the NMTB 30 flange are much easier to line up. “

    Again agreed but still hardly a clincher. Actually if you note the orientation of the key-way when you remove a tool it’s not so difficult to align the next one.

    Getting a tool change to work with that pin automatically on R8 would be painful.

    Again agreed but not relevant in the context of the original post.

    “- Tooling ejects without requiring a whack on the drawbar. Faster for manual changes”

    My experience with ISO 30 is that it also needs a bit of a whack. This may go to tolerances on the taper for the cheaper varieties. It could cause an awful mess on an ATC carrousel. Sorry that’s out of context.

    “better for automatic changes.”

    Reference context.

    “- According to the second PM link below, it takes about 3/4 turn of the drawbar to tighten or eject an NMTB 30 holder.”

    Same turns for an R8 tool holder, but not collets I agree.

    “Fewer turns, no need for a hammer whack, no need to line up a drive pin, all adds up to faster manual changes even without a power drawbar. “

    See above. Also ISO does have a drive pin, actually 2, that require alignment.

    “When the question came up on PM, not one single poster recommended the R8 even though it was cheaper:”

    This on the surface seems like it might be a valid point. However these guys are generally talking about larger industrial machines. Did you ask them how many have a beloved bridgeport and how many had bothered to converted to ISO 30 and ditch their current tooling. This again goes to the context of the thread.

    The only poster you quote that I accept un-questioned is Forrest Addy. However you chose to quote him out of context.

    Your quote “Forrest goes on to say R8 is "barely adequate".

    His post actually said “R8 spindle taper and the BP spindle and quill is barely adequate”. Which is not the same thing. The main point he was tying to make in the thread was that powered drawbars are the best addition you can make for quick tool changes. I agree. I have included his full post below.

    “Those quick change tooling systems are very nice and convenient but remember that the R8 spindle taper and the BP spindle and quill is barely adequate as it is. Adding tooling extension reduces spindle tooling rigidity. The time you save in quick tool changes costs you in reduced stock removal.

    If your milling workload has a lot of detail requiring many tool changes then these QC tooling systems can make you some money. Most shops that use them remove them for the stock removal tooling and replace them for the details cuts.

    I've used many QC systems and found most worthy of modest praise only. I think by far the best time saveer on a milling machine besides a DRO is is a power drawbar. Push a button and boom! the tool falls in your hand.”

    The rest of the posters that you put so much stock in are unknown to me. They give no reasons for their opinions and for all I know they are making similar assumptions as you made when you claimed the ISO 30 is supported on the flange. It starts to become like a religion. Everybody else believes, so it must be true. Also I see nobody advocating going to the trouble of converting from R8 to ISO 30, back to context.

    I’m not sure it is worth saying more, so this is my last word on the subject.

    Regards
    Phil

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ISO 30 Spindle-nmtb30r8comp-jpg  


  14. #34
    Gold Member BobWarfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by philbur View Post
    I’m not sure it is worth saying more, so this is my last word on the subject.
    Yeah Phil, I reached that conclusion some time back as I mentioned in a post this morning, but you raised further points and seemed to want to continue to gather information to learn from, so I thought I would oblige. I see that you have not gotten much learning from it, other than to find more things to disagree with. Sorry for that, but in the end, this thread seems more for the other folks than you anyway, since you have expressed a desire to leave the #30 taper world firmly behind.

    We're going to have to differ on Forrest's quote. I think it's pretty clear and was not taken out of context. There are many more just like it expressing a view that R8 is a marginal taper on the Bridgeport.

    Incidentally, the flange does contribute mass and rigidity to the holder, and if driven by dogs (which the IH spindle is set up to do) versus a little set screw pin, plays a role there as well, so I'll stick to my original drawing of the toolholder just as it comes. I see little instructive in your "revision".

    I'm also not clear on why you think automatic toolchangers are out of context for a CNC forum or even this thread. Keeping the option open to build one would be a reason to adopt the NMTB 30 spindle. Anyone not interested can certainly discount it, but those who are interested will care and it is perfectly reasonable to discuss it for that reason.

    Phil, I'm genuinely happy you've got what you want. Please be happy for those of us who are also getting what we want. Your days will be so much more pleasant if you try to be less confrontational with everyone. Merely because someone disagrees with you is no reason to go on the attack, particularly if you really are here to learn, which is what you've said.



    Cheers,

    BW



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by philbur View Post
    I think you have misunderstood the context of the post that you quote.

    The post that the quote was an answer too identified the Tormach drive system as a possible system the poster was interested in. I suggested nothing, I merely pointed out that he could buy the spindle for $550. I was trying to be helpful. In any case an IH spindle converted to ISO 30 would not have resolved his particular issues. If you read the post that I was replying too and then read my post I think all will be revealed.

    I'm not entirely sure what your point is regarding ground or rolled ball screws in relation to the attached quotes?

    Regards
    Phil
    The quote is from the thread "Belt Drive Spindle Possible?" in the IH forum. And the quote you were responding to was this.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAber View Post
    If you can find a cartridge spindle with angular contact bearings I would do away with the gear head assembly and replace it with a 2 speed belt driven spindle and a 3 phase vfd controlled motor similar to the PCNC1100 spindle or a DC PWM controlled motor. The bearings in the original gear head will handle 3000 rpm ok; however, there isn't any provision for preload adjustment and a two bearing spindle is marginal in every way. The Gilman spindle Swede has would be perfect on an IH mill. If time is no issue and you or a good friend is a good machinist with a healthy bank account anything is possible.

    Mike
    Clearly, Mike was talking about upgrading the IH spindle and converting the IH mill to belt driven because that's what he said. He didn't say I want to buy a tormach or I'm interested in a tormach like you just said. It was in response to this message

    Quote Originally Posted by Mortgaged View Post
    I would love to convert the whole head assembly to a Cat 30 spindle belt driven by a servo motor thru a VFD (kind of like a HAAS). Skip the quill and counterbalance the head for easy up/down movement. Maybe relocate the hand crank? It would only help for the eventual conversion to CNC. It may take me a couple years, but I will come up with something as the current amount of slop is not tolerable.
    Which was also talking about an IH mill, which makes sense because the thread was about doing a belt drive conversion on an IH mill. Its also exactly what some of us are talking about in this thread, converting to ISO 30 and belt driven. You responded in that thread about converting an IH mill head in the IH forum buy suggesting he buy a tormach head for $550 and put it on an IH mill, lol. Now you say in this thread that $165 is too expensive for a better spindle . This seems very contradictory.



  16. #36
    Member ger21's Avatar
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    Can we please try to stay on topic here.

    Gerry

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  17. #37
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    BW, let me play devil's advocate first... the quotes you listed above are all opinions - good information and food for thought, but opinions nonetheless. To me, they prove the point no better or worse than the opinions expressed here from either camp.

    Now, if I could find some objective data like: "ISO30 is 43% stiffer laterally at the tool holder base than R8", then that would make it onto the "advantage" column instead of mere personal "preference" in my book.

    Having said all that, I must say I agree with your thought process on buying the ISO spindle and bearings. I might just do the same because... well, because I'm a tinkerer. I think most here are. $65 spindle + $100 bearings just seem like a good excuse to start a tinkering project. Sometimes, comprehensive analytical justification is just not a prerequisite for tinkering.

    I had wanted to do a belt drive conversion to my ZAY7045, but decided it would cost too much and put my mill out of commission too long. Your idea of machining another head to mount the ISO30 spindle sounds like the most logical way to take advantage of this deal. Hurry up and do it so I can copy ya!



  18. #38
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    The flange as originally intended does NOT locate the tool. HOWEVER they DO make a setup that blueprints everything so it does bear on the flage for CAT tooling, this makes the system more rigid and allows use of lomger milling and boring tools. You COULD do that with r8 too..but the downfall of any such system is the bearings that support the spindle.

    If the ISO 30 has a bigger more robust bearing pack it will be more rigid...looking at the spindle however, if it had a smaller hole (r8) it would be even more rigid :-)

    no doubt about it the iso30 SHOULD control a tool better than an R8, it looks to have a lot longer register distance on the tool. One could not have EITHER the OD, or the ID grinding done for the $65.00, let alone both, and the rough machine, and the heat treat, and the spline.

    it's a steal at $65 even if all you do with it is look at it on your desk :-)


    Bill



  19. #39
    Gold Member BobWarfield's Avatar
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    I've started a belt drive worklog and notes page:

    http://www.thewarfields.com/MT/CCMillBeltDrive.html

    It's just sketches and notes at the moment:







    Lots more research to be done. I've decided that if I want to achieve the greater potential of the #30 taper, I'll probably have to spend for a more sophisticated bearing package. Hence the sketches are based around a duplex pair of AC bearings at the bottom. Quite a bit more expensive than what Aaron spec'd.

    I also opted for a cartridge design because I think its easier to achieve the necessary precision machining a cylinder. Dimensions are chosen for 3 1/2" OD x 5/8" wall DOM, which is readily available.

    Lots of research and fooling around needed before any chips will fly. I am happy to report that my powered drawbar continues to move along nicely. I hope to get it installed before leaving for Christmas vacation. If not, it'll be early next year. The IH mill cuts really nice. More rigidity and spindle speed would make for quite a mill once CNC'd.

    Best,

    BW



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    -
    I have a Tormach with the R8 spindle cartridge - and I am considering changing it to the ISO 30 so that down the road I could build a simple ATC. I have the Tormach Tooling but I think it would be quite a bear to get it to work in an ATC system.

    Has anyone here had any experience changing a cartridge spindle system ? What kinds of pitfalls should I be looking for ?

    Any ideas on how I could tell whether or not Aaron's spindle would fit in my Tormach ?

    And doesn't CAT 30 tooling have a retention knob on the top ? This looks like the drawbar screws right into the top of the end mill holder where the retention knob goes ? (Or am I an idiot and missing something completely obvious ?)

    Also, I noticed Tormach has a BT30 spindle cartridge mentioned in their manual, I'm assuming this would work well for an ATC design, the problem would be finding BT30 tooling for a reasonable price, right ?

    Sorry for all the questions, just trying to feel my way around in the dark here



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