ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

[Bob La Londe]

I got it uncrated and off the trailer today. That's a bit of a job in and of itself. There were enough screws holding that OSB to the frame that I could package them and resell them on Ebay. Speaking of OSB, there was enough forming the protective shell I could roof a small shed. I haven't had much time to play with it any further. Its just setting on the floor inside the shop. I got a bit of a scare when I found the keys wouldn't open the lower cabinet until I found another set of keys zip tied inside the lower cabinet.

I think I could assemble this and have it running in a day or less if my days weren't so busy with other stuff. The layout is obvious. Having retrofit other machines I appreciate how easy they made the setup on this machine. And while I have not yet opened it I would like to point out that one of the first things I saw when I got the crate open was a pack of papers with instructions on how to setup the mill. Cool.

[Bob La Londe]

Ok... the 30" X envelope looks a little optimistic. I think it will do it, but the bed table will have to be part way off the ways in either direction. . I think I'll set it at about 24-26"

I was originally going to put it inside my office, but I think getting it in there on the stand with a reasonable size splash enclosure is a bit tougher than I want to tackle. I wanted it in the office so the computer would be air conditioned. Now I am improvising. I'll run an air duct from the office into the computer cabinet like I am doing on the Hurco.

(On the flip side I finally finished drywalling and painting my front office after 8 years. LOL)

[handlewanker]

Ha Ha, that's a complimentary workshop supplied with the mill so's you don't have to build a separate one.

You could just weather proof the outside with a few tarps and make a door in the side and before you know it you'd have a complete work centre to place anywhere......no need to go down into the dungeon.

I think if you plugged it in you could work it in the box as it stands.

BTW........just looking at the last photo..... with that structure sticking out of the top of the box....... it looks like the box is upside down as that looks like the legs of the stand that it's supposed to be standing on, so you might have to stand on your head to work the machine.....LOL....only kidding.
Ian.

[Bob La Londe]

Yeah, its a Box Moose with Antlers. LOL.

I did quite a lot of work over the long weekend. Almost none of it on actually setting up the machine. Most of it was involved in moving and cleaning for the machine location. Now I've got 30 or 40 spools and reels of wire that need a new home in the shop.

I did grind the welds off the the top of the stand and repaint it. I have to say the welds were decent. There were a few spatter balls, which is not unexpected. When I ground the top welds down flush with the surrounding steel I only found two tiny little voids. Certainly nothing to worry about. Probably better than I would have if I had opted to make my own stand. I had to grind the welds smooth because I am going with a full enclosure, and I didn't want the beads to eat into the base pan over time.

[Bob La Londe]

P.S. That's .125 5052 marine grade aluminum. No matter what anybody tells you that's outside the limit of a 12 gage (.100 apx) break. Even a Tennsmith. It took two of us to make those bends and we had to do multiple bends to form a radius on the sides. Then we had to take the fingers off to get it out of the brake.

[Charter Oak]

Ok... the 30" X envelope looks a little optimistic. I think it will do it, but the bed table will have to be part way off the ways in either direction. . I think I'll set it at about 24-26"

Yes. 26" will take you to the saddle's edge in either direction. The mill will achieve more travel past the edge of the saddle. We will be editing our advertised envelope noting just that. No intention to mislead.

The pan looks great so far! Please keep us all updated with your progress.

[Bob La Londe]

Well, it will do 30" then, but from what I have read about table sag on various long table machines I would not recommend setting it up that way by default. Just move the stops when absolutely necessary, and move them back when done. I noticed how the hardware was designed at both ends of the table to allow for quite a bit of over travel.

How difficult would it be to rotate the X axis motor/cover so the cable comes out the back rather than the side? I am afraid of extra strain against the raised side wings on the pan. I only went with 2" of rise over the full distance to minimize that, but still. The cable will have a constant strain and friction against the pan at that point.

[Bob La Londe]

Front Panel - The front is pretty straight forward. I just cut it to fit the pan. The back is going to be a little trickier as I am struggling with my plan for how to get cables out of the enclosure without dumping coolant out the hole as well. I think I am going to have to build a "sub" box in the back of the pan for that.

Anyway, the front panel of the pan.

[Bob La Londe]

P.S. You guys probably won't get to see many more pictures for a while. While I can general point the north end of a southbound aluminum eating chicken at two pieces of aluminum and get them to stick together, the results are not usually very pretty.

[Bob La Londe]

Not much to report. I may lift the mill onto the stand today if I can figure out how to hold the back panel in the coolant pan for welding. Here is a progress picture from an hour ago. Please don't make fun of my aluminum welds. You might, "huht ma widdle feewings and mauke me feew sad."

I have the front fully welded with 3 or 4 spots marked to check for touch up welds now. Took me just under three hours to brush, clean, and weld that section fully in place. I have not decided yet, but I may also back weld it. (its only about 1/3 stitched in the picture.)

[Bob La Londe]

Back panel welded in place. Less than two hours to brush, clean, prep, and weld. My biggest problem was running up against the duty cycle of the welder, and I don't have a cheap welder. Well, its not a 350P pulser, but it is a nice Miller 212 dual gun dual gas MIG. Again, please don't make fun of my welds. You might make me cry. LOL.

[handlewanker]

LOL......dear Bob, we all have problems welding aluminium.........I use a MULTIPLAZ 3500 plasma welder for all my welding jobs and also to weld ally, and as it has bags of heat I get holes where holes shouldn't be, but with a copper block backer I fill the holes in and file them back smooth.......you can't tell the diff when it's all filed up.

BTW, if you had heated the ally along the seam where you want to bend, then worked it cold, it will bend easier as the ally tends to get work hardened from the rolling mill and acts like spring steel......it will also stop it from cracking and/or fracturing along the bend too.

For a test run I would run plain water in the tank to see if there are any seam leaks as it's well nigh impossible to clean out a seam that has oil based coolant oozing from it.
Ian.

[Bob La Londe]

Thanks. I think I am getting better. On 2 X 96" seams I only blew two holes, and both times I kinda new I was going to do it before I did. Both filled in easy by stacking welds around the holes. I had a few spots that didn't look really good that I went over and rewelded. I was actually running up against the duty cycle of the welder. I had to stop and let the welder cool down. Makes me wish I'ld spent the extra money on a 252 instead of the 212, or saved up for a 350P. I keep telling myself I'm gong to pick up some stainless and some copper blocks to help with this stuff, but I never seem to remember to do that.

[handlewanker]

Hi, have you ever considered using TIG to do your stainless and/or aluminium work?

If you have a stick welder you can do scratch start TIG.

You'll need to get a TIG torch and cable, ARGON gas bottle and some tungsten electrodes.

The TIG torch is the plain type with the gas control valve on the handle, so all you need to do is connect it electrically to the welder output (no high frequency needed) and do TIG welding with the gas controlled manually on the handle valve......all very basic but it works the same as if you were using a dedicated TIG welder, except you start the arc by scratching the tungsten electrode on a piece of copper off to the side of the job and walk the arc onto the job once it's started........amps controlled with the welder power control as per for a stick welder.

When you do get a blow through with aluminium it's because the heat flows rapidly into the adjacent material and before the weld zone gets to melting point you have a large heat zone that just collapses on you.

It doesn't pay to linger too long on one spot waiting for the metal to melt.

If you only have a MIG welder, a cheap stick welder will only cost about $100, + the gear to get it up to TIG status.

Welding with TIG is a whole new ball game.
Ian.

[Bob La Londe]

Only a MIG?

I made two welds 8 feet long in 5052 with it. I guess I can muddle by. LOL. Every example I have seen is way to slow for me with TIG. My average stitch with the MIG on this job was one inch, and my average fill was six inches. I suspect if I had somebody doing the prep and clean work as I went I could weld up an entire boat in a day with my MIG. (** Not counting back chipping and back welding to do it right.) Even given that its not 100% duty cycle when welding constantly on a 100 degree day. 0.080 is the lower limit realistically with this MIG, but it will do it a LOT faster than the TIGs I have seen. Probably an order of magnitude faster than a basic piggyback TIG. I'm not sure why so many people are so prejudice towards going slower with TIG. I know you can do thinner metal with it, but its soooooo slooooow. When I find myself needing to weld a soda can back together I'll get one. Professional fabricators routinely make aluminum fuel tanks with MIG. While I'm not a welder of that caliber I am confident in my ability to make chicken scratch welds that stick.

As I stated in 16 feet of welds I had only 2 small blow outs, and both times I felt it coming before it happened. If I had just stopped instead of getting impatient and pushing on I would have had zero (0).

I bet if I had been using a 252 with its 100% (100%+ at this current) I would not have been pushing, and I wouldn't have had any blowouts. I am certain if I had a 350P (and equal experience with it) I could do the job faster and cleaner. I can't see me ever stepping backwards to a slower system for this type of welding for aluminum. I am more likely to plunk dfown the cash for a 350P. I don't know about stainless as the only stainless welding I have done is spot welding with sheet.

** In Pollards book on aluminum boat building he says that due to stress risers the proper way to make butt and corner welds is to weld one side, back chip it, and then weld the other side.

[Bob La Londe]

I am curious though about your comments on annealing and braking. I found I could brake this .125 5052 to 45 degrees with zero issues, but even 1/4 inch back I struggled to make a second bend to complete the 87+ degrees I need to finish the ends of the pan. I had to make two additional bends to complete my brake. I did make some test brakes in smaller pieces of .125. I found that around 75-80 degrees it would start to tear even when the clamp was spaced back 2X material thickness.

Are you saying that I can make a full 90 degree brake bend by braking part way, annealing, and then braking the rest of the way, or just that it would be easier to make the staggered radius bend I did make if I had annealed between steps?

[handlewanker]

Hi Bob, I can only comment on the aluminium I used to have around and did a few jobs on......don't know the grade but it was from sheet stock about 3mm thick and quite springy.

I found that if you bent it in one go you'd get fractures at the bend zone, so we used to put a bit of heat into the bend seam and then bend it.

I know what you mean by the TIG being a slow method for welding, but it is a precise one.

If you only got two blow holes in 16 feet you're doing OK.

Be ultra careful with the fumes from ally welding, which is the same for all welding fumes and especially anything coated with zinc.
Ian.

[Bob La Londe]

HandleWanker, Thanks, I may do some experiments with some 5052 scraps to see if it can be annealed and bent further. 5052 (and most aluminum alloys I have worked with) work harden. They don't harden from heat treatment. That's why I was a bit surprised that you could anneal them. Most of the 5052 I get comes T6 hardness so if it will anneal it might be worth it prior to even a first bend. I know its just about impossible to flatten out a bend that you put in the wrong place.

[handlewanker]

Hi, when I was in the South African Air Force doing my national service back in the 50's, the annealing I used to do was for Duralumin, a tough aluminium alloy that was practically impossible to bend, and the annealing process was to place the items in an oven, (or carefully heat with a gas torch), and heat them until a bar of soap rubbed on the surface just started to turn black....it works with a match too and you just rub the wooden end on the metal and watch for the black mark.

It's probably around the 300 deg C mark, but the soap trick works OK, and fo the Dural you have a time frame of 4 hours before the metal age hardens once again.

You can't harden aluminium by heating and quenching etc, but you can remove the rolled in compactness that makes it go hard and springy.
Ian.

[Bob La Londe]

I did some research since my last post, and you are pretty close. 343C / 649F to anneal 5052. Don't know about Duralumin, but I bet its close. I figured I'ld pick up a 600F and 650F Tempilstik to leave in my tool box for future projects. The 600F to let me know when I am getting close and the 650F to let me know its ready. I read about using Sharpies, soap, etc, and I also read some reviews that they are not always right on the temperature. Could just be technique too.