Upgrading CNC7 to CNC10 - Project Log

[gfacer2]

OK so I've decided to upgrade my control software to the latest available with the existing hardware (ISA card and down). I hope to end up on CNC10 v2.72.

Background: I've got a CNC router with a M39 control. I've posted previous stuff on how I recovered from a crashed motherboard by dropping the isa card and old hard drive onto a new motherboard and was back in business (except the case was hanging outside the cabinet at the end). I then upgraded the floppy to a usb floppy emulator to use a usb key (formatted to floppy size) - which worked awesome but anyhow now that I am thinking of selling the machine I want to get it as recent as I can - and back in the cabinet - with usb support and maybe network capability.

So I've been gathering the pieces: A new control computer case (that fits back in the M39 cabinet), a new motherboard with ISA slot and enough juice to power a slightly over minimum spec'd linux CNC10 installation. Apparently not all motherboards work. I used a MSI MS6368 board with a celeron 1.1ghz and 1 gb ram as I was told this board would work (they are not that common). If I can I'd like to find another motherboard to test out too.

I will hopefully be able to use the Startech CF to IDE converter and a random new CF card (which sounds like might also be an issue) but if not I can always find an old IDE hard drive or use an IDE to SATA converter. I'd rather not use an IDE drive as they are getting on the ancient side.

So today I backed up the old system settings as described in TB167. Now if you need this, you'll need to ask Ajax or your dealer as it is one of the very few technical bulletin that is not on the Ajax website. However I couldn't follow the technical bulletin exactly as the dos centroid system uses an uncommon archiving program that does not work on 64bit windows machines (though a dos emulator might work). I decided instead to do the unarchiving (this will make more sense if you have the TB167) on the old system and then transferring to the floppy afterward. I did the same for the gcode archive but I could have just transferred them bit by bit on the floppy too. I don't store too many g-code programs so it would have all fit on a floppy anyhow. I had to get the funpack.exe program from the dealer support area of the centroid site as it was not on the cnc7 computer (as described in the TB167). Not even sure I should be able to access that but if you know the direct path you can.

I then burnt a CD of the cnc10 2.72 ISO image. Oh and you apparently need to have your serial number. Marc from cncsnw.com is helping me and had that - so I don't recall where you would find it.

That's it until I get my new motherboard and can test the flash drive which should be Monday.

Cheers, GF

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[cncsnw]

Normally, the control serial number is on silver tags on the back of the M39 pendant and also on the door of the control cabinet (if the control has a factory cabinet).

However, it is the CPU board inside (CPU7, CPU10, MPU11, etc.) that really identifies which control is which, since it is the CPU board that carries the software license.

The company that built gfacer2's control mixed components from multiple kits, so he has the hand pendant from one system, and the CPU7 from another. Therefore his control serial number is not the one shown on the back of the pendant.

If in doubt, e-mail Centroid with the "System ID" code displayed on the F1/Setup screen or the F7/Utility -> F8/Options screen. That code is based on the CPU board identifier, and can be used to look up your control serial number.

[gfacer2]

Ok So I finally got the motherboard and some time. So I installed the motherboard in the case (with modifications to allow the isa card to fit - basically removing a bunch of internal only drive bays), and then installed the CF card IDE adapter, set the bios to boot from CD and... Nothing (not even boot from CD). I also had a new IDE hdd (still sealed) that I had bought just in case the CF didn't work and .... a little progress.

With the HDD installed it would boot to CD but the cnc10 installer would not see any drives. Both the CF and the HDD showed up on the bios fine. I checked another linux live CD to see if it was the installer but it was not - I had a disk issue.

So long long story short is I slaved the CF card IDE drive to the optical drive and then I did (in dos) fdisk /status. There I could see the second drive (and all the partitions I never knew I had on the cnc7 dos drive) but the CF card had no drive letters. So I opened up fdisk and eventually made a dos partition and then an extended partition for the 8gb flash card I was using. I assume a similar procedure would be needed for the new hdd (while a used wiped hdd might have been fine).

Then I unslaved the drive (back to a master), uninstalling the cnc7 drive to keep it safe, and booted from the Install CD again.

This time success! I was able to see hda as an option for an install location and I knew it was OK as no other storage was attached. So I completed the install, removed the boot disk and rebooted from the CF card. Booting is actually slower than CNC7 as I guess its really running a linux wine emulation of windows (or dos) to run things. The first time I booted I got a bunch of fail messages but it auto rebooted and then things seemed fine. I believe it has found the legacy ISA card but I'm doing this at home so the test will be if I can get the old settings loaded and it up and controlling the machine.

Right now before I restore stuff it shows as an expired demo. Next step is to restore stuff as per the Tech Bulletin and then hook it up.

Just as a side note, installing the old drive and floppy emulator on the new motherboard to run the existing CNC7 set up worked fine too (or seemed to - I did not actually hook up all the drive cables etc and test it but I have confidence it would have been fine). This is important as I can always put the project on hold, switch a few cables in the case (the old HDD is in the case too) and be back to the old system for any parts I need to make. I'll keep the larger old motherboard I had from the outside the cabinet kludge as a backup - but even then I think I might just look for another ISA mATX motherboard as a backup instead so that I can keep things in the cabinet.

[gfacer2]

OK,

So today I hooked everything up and it made the nice clunk in the cabinet. With Marc's help I deleted some of the installed files and recopied/installed old cnc7 files. This was a precaution I think as I had chosen the atc39m plc file on installation and likely shouldn't have for my machine.

I then recompiled my plc sourcecode and renamed it to cnc10.plc. This is not hard but not obvious without Marc's assistance again. The unlock codes were not working so I got another TB 243 from Marc and followed a combination of that and his instructions to successfully unlock and change some parameters that apparently needed changing.

I can now home and load files etc but the one thing that is not working is my tool change macros. When I run the m51 command either from the MDI screen or from a file, I get an error.

I'm guessing I need restore a few more files or configure something and then I can start testing parts.

So far some notes/thoughts:

1) CNC10 does play fine with the cpu7 isa board I have
2) Installation is finicky - I highly recommend hiring one of the tech's like Marc to assist you where needed or to do it if you are not well versed in computers. I'm no computer scientist but I've been working on various generations for 30 years at least and can hack my android phone decently when needed so I'm very comfortable in muddling through this. And it has been a muddle but I've certainly had longer/worse issues. I doubt I could do it alone and I doubt that even if I left a paper trail on here explaining ever step, I'd be able to do it on another machine without getting more help.
3) Boot time is slower, loading files is slow to get to the choosing part. But USB should work (I've yet to try it). I've yet to look into network access and likely won't unless I get curious. I don't have the cables to the machine site anyhow.
4) Closing time is ok (and you now have to boot down) and the motherboard is working well in that it does turn back on with the power being reapplied (though I was able to reroute the switch close if needed).
5) I now have the distance to go, load meters, and hopefully the run time graphics (for what it's worth - which is something)

Oh and so far I haven't seen a need for a serial number directly ironically.

[gfacer]

Get a wireless adapter that works with linux and use that for ethernet. Once you go network you won't go back.

[gfacer2]

OK, so pulled the cnc7.m* (ie cnc7.51 and.m52 etc) from the old drive and renamed to cnc10.m* and put them back. I deleted all these file in the morning but I don't know if I deleted the ones from my old set up or if they were from the installation process.

At any rate I did it and now I think I am running into syntax errors from Linux to dos. I saw this in the notes somewhere but basically DOS doesn't care if it is capitalized or not but Linux does. So my m51 file is looking for "PICKUP.CNC" but only pickup.cnc exists.

OK I've now changed that so that they match - and the next similar issue down the line - which were my position files from o0000.cnc to O0001.cnc. Now I have a invalid character error within the O0001.cnc file where is sees the line that says <sub>.

Anyhow at this point the log might be getting a bit too specific to my machine and files but I'll keep on posting a bit just to show the level of complexity I am having so people can determine whether this is a good idea for them or not.

G

[countryguy]

Thanks for sharing! Wowza! Are you going from the Linux OS based Centroid to DOS or vice-versa? Sounds like you are going to Linux OS? My guess (and it's a guess): If you're into Linux then you need to 'escape' the character '<' and '>' in some manner? If this is the case, then different linux 'shells' have different characters that require escaping. usually the '\' char can escape (for BASH) ?? To escape in Bash then; \<sub\> translate to <sub> Heck, Not even sure I have it right! I just google based on where or what I'm into.
Now, the fun part is I think we can dig up a small batch pgm to run thru a file and replace(escape) those. Might be part of your process until they are all done. Keep us posted.
CG

Quoting characters

bash - How to determine the current shell I&#39;m working on? - Stack Overflow

[countryguy]

In case anyone is wondering, I'm the twin of the other gfacer on cnczone...
Cool!! I have twins myself! Still sort of new in all of this CNC world, but IT is a strong point ;-)

[gfacer2]

Thanks for sharing! Wowza! Are you going from the Linux OS based Centroid to DOS or vice-versa? Sounds like you are going to Linux OS? My guess (and it's a guess): If you're into Linux then you need to 'escape' the character '<' and '>' in some manner? If this is the case, then different linux 'shells' have different characters that require escaping. usually the '\' char can escape (for BASH) ?? To escape in Bash then; \<sub\> translate to <sub> Heck, Not even sure I have it right! I just google based on where or what I'm into.
Now, the fun part is I think we can dig up a small batch pgm to run thru a file and replace(escape) those. Might be part of your process until they are all done. Keep us posted.
CG
]

Hi Country Guy, I'm going from DOS to Linux (and I can just switch hard drives to go back to DOS). As for the <sub> I just tried deleting the line (only in 10 files) and it works fine without that line.

So yet another issue... So I fixed the <sub> issue by deleting it, and then I could pick up and drop my tools. Then I tried a test file. So first point was that USB is not working yet. I maybe need to mount the usb stick manually or ?? Awaiting any guidance from Marc on that. So then I loaded the test onto the floppy emulator usb stick and it loaded up but I got the error again (cannot load pickup.cnc), only this time all the upper case syntax looks fine - everything matches but I can't proceed. To make matters worse, the same command from the MDI screen does not work any longer. To make things weirder, when I load up pickup.cnc (to make sure it loads), the MDI commands start working again.

OK so eventually I realized that unlike CNC7, CNC10 does not transfer the file that is loaded to the hd to run. It actually runs it from the floppy. I noticed that the file 'test.cnc' that I loaded was not on the hard drive like it would be on cnc7. I then guessed that when I run a program that is residing on the floppy, the floppy becomes the working directory and as it contains none of the macro files needed (pickup.cnc and location file) nothing works. I tested this by importing the file to the hard drive, - yep it all works then.

I'm hoping there is a way to turn on the auto importing that CNC7 had as the import function is a lot more steps. The alternative that I've also asked Marc about is changing the M51 file to read something like "/cncroot/c/cnc10/ncfiles/pickup.cnc" rather that "pickup.cnc" but I'm not sure if that will work.

Anyhow Easter weekend awaits.

[cnckeith]

there is a parameter to set that tell cnc10 how to act when you press the load button. check out the operators manual.
http://www.centroidcnc.com/downloads/270millmanual.pdf

chapter 14
page 14-13
parameter #4

set it up anyway you like.

i like the advanced menu option as well (there are two load menus to choose from)

[cnckeith]

Eight useful docs to have when upgrading from dos to linux..attached. happy reading

[gfacer2]

Thanks Keith on the parameter, Marc got back to me on that too. For USB, Marc suggested checking the integrated peripherals part in the motherboard bios which I will do Mon.

I've also got an Intel PCI wireless adapter enroute to try and get the network running.

[gfacer2]

OK so changing Parameter #4 to '5' seemed to work (thanks Marc). Changing it to '4' (advanced menu option) did not seem to do everything I wanted. Anyhow - seems good enough for now but I haven't worked with it yet so we'll see. USB is remaining an issue. I've tried with bios support on and off and with USB keyboard support also enabled. Currently working on a low level reformat of the stick. Might go get a fresh stick later to try too.

The homing speed seems very slow, as does pre homed jog speed but I'm sure I can tweak that in parameters if I look.

[gfacer2]

Ok,

So USB is finally working. I had to edit the /etc/fstab file where I changed the usb line to 'defaults' on the options section.

If you have no idea what I am talking about - like I would have been about an hour ago - you'll see other defaults listed - just change the corresponding spot on the usb line.

Anyhow now it (seems to) auto mount the usb to 'b' drive. And I adjusted the rapid jog rate pre homing. So I think we are good to test some parts! Or at least until my network card comes...

[gfacer2]

Oh and I also had to format the USB stick on windows 7 to Fat and allocation to <default>.

[gfacer2]

Hmm - runtime graphics are not working. Or rather they are sort of working but then machine does not cut anything. Basically when I cycle start with RTG enabled - I get the graphics (accelerated as if just graphing) but the machine does nothing. There is blue screen with white boxes that appears after hitting cycle start that gives the distinct impression that something is wrong...

EDIT: OK my mistake on this one. The blue/white screen remains but the function itself is working. I had forgotten that the program I was looking at was 14 passes rather than a usual 3-4 (I had wanted to make a program over 1.44mb on purpose for USB testing). Once I changed that - it seems to work pretty well. It graphs first and then you cycle start to run the program and with my program the graphing was taking forever and ,well, I'm impatient so I cancelled it before it ended.

OK so my main results so far:

1) USB support in program- Check
2) Computer in Cabinet - Check
3) Run time graphics - Check

and whatever else I get from the upgrade.

Some other notes:

The linux used and accessible by the user seems to have very limited functionality and no SU support (I haven't asked if I could access SU either). This would have been helpful for looking at the USB support issues though it means little when things are set up. The biggest thing is if you know linux, you may find that your ability is restricted here.

The AD2 smoothing settings did nothing for me. I had already dialed in my happy place for Acc/Deccelation and AD2 made things a lot worse (though tweaking may have been possible). Think lots of banging stops on the gantry and the associated vibration.

[gfacer2]

Ok so another issue to hopefully work through - the jog dial on the pendant is not working. I hope that is a parameter setting but haven't had time to determine it yet.

[countryguy]

It's wonderful your doing such a good job documenting this. But I read this and wonder why you went to CNC10 Linux... Were you inhibited from the CNC11 and possibly just running off any ol' PC? Or is this some larger integrated box which as a newb I'm clueless about. Just curious.
Thanks,
CG

[gfacer2]

It's wonderful your doing such a good job documenting this. But I read this and wonder why you went to CNC10 Linux... Were you inhibited from the CNC11 and possibly just running off any ol' PC? Or is this some larger integrated box which as a newb I'm clueless about. Just curious.
Thanks,
CG

I went to CNC 10 as CNC11 does not work with the old CPU7 isa boards (I believe) and as this is a older router that is not full sized, it is not worth the 4-5k to change it to the all in 1 DC board and system with a new computer etc. It would be nice and all but the goal here is a good upgrade using all the old bits (excluding the new motherboard/drive etc) and all in the computer - no rewiring anything. The plan is to sell this router soon and I wanted to make it as good as I could - though if the next user wants they may change it out.

I know for sure with cnc11 I would have needed a new pendant (hopefully I get full functionality of my old one back with the jog) as well as a new computer and either a new allin1dc board or at minimum rare new motherboard that could take an isa slot and run windows 7 (though I thought CPU7 and cnc11 don't mix - I could be wrong).

I'm sort of a 'if it ain't broke don't fix it type'. The CNC7 actually worked totally fine, its just that every now and again I could not load a job as it was too big for a floppy (and I don't do enough to want to enable a DNC system). When I realized that the software itself was free for existing consoles, it was a no brainer to attempt this upgrade. For $300-500 + time this is the right value for me and this machine.

[cnckeith]

fyi.. about a year ago Centroid introduced another upgrade path for older systems. Its called the "MPU11 Legacy Add" upgrade. This allows the use of the Newest CNC CPU the "MPU11" Board to control older centroid servo drives and plc's while using a modern PC running windows 7 or 8.
the beauty of this upgrade path is that there is no rewiring of the electrical cabinet. This is nice.. i performed three of these on different year centroid systems all with great success. i really enjoyed not having to rewire anything. I just unplugged the encoder cables from the old cnc7 or cnc10 cpu card and plugged them into the MPU11 and did the same with the fiber optic cables. That's all i had to do in the cabinet. all the existing plc wires, drive wires, power supplies, etc..etc.. remained in place. There was a little work on the software side of things..the old PLC program is not compatible with the new mpu11/cnc11 software so you have create that or pay a tech to create it for you. Most older jog panels and pendants are not compatible, some can have the firmware updated and be reused. you can either buy a new operators panel/pendant or just use keyboard jogging which has most all the same capabilities..u just use the keyboard instead of the centroid panel. some guys have reported to me they like the keyboard better.. so its user preference.

Attached is the MPU11 Legacy Add visual price list. if you are on a budget and have a little time all you really need is to uby the mpu11 with legacy add board set ($1115) and then you build your own windows 7 pc and install your own software and write your own plc program (there are some base program in which you can start with and modify for your use) and use keyboard jogging. centroid will transfer any and all options that the cnc7/10 system was equipped with to the new mpu11/cnc11 system if you trade in the old cnc7/10 card.


but even if you want save time and order the deluxe system, which i installed. its not that bad..and its really cool that you can keep your 15 year old centroid going with the latest pc and software for another 15 years.
it took me about 1.5 hours to upgrade each machine when i ordered everything i needed ready to go.
MPU11 with legacy Add $1115
New Jog Pendant/panel $765
You can buy a CNC PC from centroid ready to go or build your own CNC PC for around $550 using these specs CNC PC Minimum Hardware Requirements | CNC Retrofit Control Systems for Milling machines, Routers and Lathes. Runs CENTROID Software
i paid for a new plc program to be written from scratch $350.. i'll be glad to share it with anyone that has similar hardware.