Cast or Machine - Page 2


View Poll Results: Cast or machine?

Voters
65. You may not vote on this poll
  • Cast it it makes sense!

    33 50.77%
  • Buy a billet from the shop!

    8 12.31%
  • I'd cast it if I could!

    24 36.92%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 60

Thread: Cast or Machine

  1. #21
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Hi, what effect does the iron have with the ally? does it enhance the "alloy" or cause other problems? I know alluminium bronze is a real lulu to work unless your tools are really sharp.
    Ian.



  2. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    12177
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
    "hey whats that smell?" I'll not be making anything going to the moon just yet.....However for replacing the bought in stuff ie billet alloy etc for making uprights on a mini router I kinda reckon it will hold up just fine...and then some it may well be able to support a nema 23 motor and resist it's torsional forces rocket science it aint bud
    For playing around at a DIY level when you are the person who is going to suffer the consequences that is okay. But it is a different thing when the word 'manufacturing' is mentioned because that implies selling to a third party. Backyard cast aluminum of undefined composition from scrap is rarely adequate and can be downright dangerous. The 'billet mystique' I mentioned does have validity and it has grown out of the market for adapters and accessories in the modified motorcycle and offroad 4x4 market. Amateur cast aluminum does not cut it when you are making transmission adapters or fancy footpegs; giving the impression that maybe it can is not entirely responsible.



  3. #23
    Registered Kipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1062
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Geof View Post
    For playing around at a DIY level when you are the person who is going to suffer the consequences that is okay. But it is a different thing when the word 'manufacturing' is mentioned because that implies selling to a third party. Backyard cast aluminum of undefined composition from scrap is rarely adequate and can be downright dangerous. The 'billet mystique' I mentioned does have validity and it has grown out of the market for adapters and accessories in the modified motorcycle and offroad 4x4 market. Amateur cast aluminum does not cut it when you are making transmission adapters or fancy footpegs; giving the impression that maybe it can is not entirely responsible.
    SOoo dont mention footpegs or tranny adaptors and we're good to go Seriously nobody can hobbycast large amounts to enable manufacturing..In which case the ingots would be bought in and then it is a controlled alloy if melted down in a controlled way degassed etc of course depending on.....wait for it.....it's "intended" use ie in this case simple brackets covers and even carriers for [SIZE="0.0003"]bearings (had to type that small to keep from NC clobbering me over it lol)[/SIZE] Nothing too stressful and no need to go into manned spaceflight metallurgy or risk assesments etc....As a pro caster said to me "Ally is nasty sticky stuff and you dont want it on you" the actual melting and pouring is the dangerous part. Ask yourself as a hobbyist how much does a 70mm square of "billet" cost? and how much to machine it into a motor mount..And then ask yourself how much to cast it and then just shave a little off to finish it. I can make a dozen for £5 but it would cost that to buy the material to make one :shrug: Alternatively I could use threaded rod and spacers and whatever is laying around and achieve exactly the same end but you wouldnt mention trick off road parts then would you lets not get carried away by imagining all the potential failings and use the methods that are available for the task at hand.

    Keith


  4. #24
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Hi, when it comes to manufacturing, i.E. to make something with the express intention of selling it to anyone who will buy it for your profit, then you shoulder all the responsibilities of potential litigation should your methods be not up to scratch.
    Backyard workshops are spawning grounds for some of the most dangerous procedures adopted by man under the mistaken identity of "being in business".
    It doesn't stop there, the methods to produce may be slipshod but the product may be first rate. On the other hand if you don't know what your working with, that is materials, design and assembly methods, then you will not only be "making a bomb" money wise, but also putting some poor barstewart at risk by your slap happy approach.
    It all comes down to REPUTATION. When you've been in the game long enough and can show that you know what your doing, then you gain a modicum of respectability from your fellow humans,and your insurance premiums are not sky high to cover your ineptitude.
    I don't think anyone with a bit of sense would willingly plunge into the deep end where the sharks prowl, which is what the business world is. So when you do a job with dubious materials and try to fob it off as "good quality" remember to apply for accreditation to get ISO 9000 or whatever the standard is and see what your up against.
    I've done quite a few jobs for pecuniary advantage, using the most basic materials and methods, and there are those jobs that you just wouldn't touch with a barge pole. Why? Because to do those jobs requires the level of expertise that some of us profess to have but can't produce.
    Expertise could be defined as to knowing what you're doing and have the necessary means to do it properly.
    The other thing is it takes a lot of input in material and machinery to put the expertise to work, otherwise you cut corners to make it pay and end up making someone else pay.
    When you cross the border from hobbyland to customerworld then you graduate from amateur to professional and shoulder all the responsibilities required.
    By the way, I always understood ingots to be cast blocks from raw material, for conveniant handling and storage, and billets were always referred to as bar material that was cut to a specific length to enable a machine to handle it.
    Such as where a lathe couldn't pass the material up the "pipe". Also forgings were referred to as ingots that had been reworked to a specific shape to reduce waste material and exceass machining.
    Ian.



  5. #25
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    SW Florida
    Posts
    24
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Ian,

    >>The other thing is it takes a lot of input in material and machinery to put the expertise to work, otherwise you cut corners to make it pay and end up making someone else pay.<<

    You've just described the world of free trade, GATT and WalMart. These are noble sentiments in theory, so long as they're not used as excuses for closing down competition with bogus regulations or price gouging customers. In reality all that happens is some drone with cash in his jeans takes a trip to China and India and arranges to import product made under the same conditions or worse conditions as you condemn domestically.

    Mark



  6. #26
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Hi charcad, I agree with you up to a point. If the goods come up to expectations then who am I to deny some peasant in a third world country a decent living by their standards.
    The point I was making is when someone fobs off an item made in a backyard set-up that is purposely made from inferior materials and expects to be paid at top dollar then I get a bit snarly, as in GGGGGGRRRRR
    This used to be the case with "Taiwanes terrors", or those mill/drills that came onto the market in the late '70s and were full of casting sand, made with crap machining methods, having missallignment so bad that you could detect it with a piece of taut string.
    But they were cheap, and many people that bought them set to and reworked them to usable standards.
    Take the Chinese lathes on the market today, especially the lower priced ones. I bet a weeks wages that NO-ONE without exception can make one to their quality for the same price.
    If you didn't know it, and thought it was made in Germany or USA, how much would you expect to pay?
    Then we get the fools who buy these machines and subject them to rough workshop handling by unskilled operators and scream out about the cheap rubbish they've just bought.
    Dollar for dollar you will never match a peasant's wage to a western wage earner's wage.
    Why do you think so many manufacturers go to third world countries to get their products made? Money, that's why and you and I are buying the stuff all the time, (and loving it).
    When the government puts a tariff on all foreign imports to enable the home market to justify their wage earnings and so compete, you will also have to sell your goods at give away prices to match theirs.
    Ian.



  7. #27
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    SW Florida
    Posts
    24
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    This used to be the case with "Taiwanes terrors", or those mill/drills that came onto the market in the late '70s and were full of casting sand, made with crap machining methods, having missallignment so bad that you could detect it with a piece of taut string.
    But they were cheap, and many people that bought them set to and reworked them to usable standards.
    They merely moved the patterns and production to mainland China. The 9x20s and 12x36s I've looked at in Harbor Freight are still full of casting sand and crap machining. Their basic methods - today - are identical to how Atlas Press and South Bend made lathes in the 1930s. They're just not as good at it. Do you suppose the Chinese are ageing their iron castings three months the way Atlas once did? FYI, the practice of ageing iron castings was recently shown (again) to have a basis in fact.

    Take a look at these 2003 photos.

    http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Sieg/Sieg.htm

    The 1937 Atlas Lathe manual has a series of nearly identical pictures.

    Take the Chinese lathes on the market today, especially the lower priced ones. I bet a weeks wages that NO-ONE without exception can make one to their quality for the same price.
    You mean the copies of the 1960s South Bend 'Heavy' design that ultimately proved most successful?

    I recently acquired a pair of Atlas 10s. The 10x36 needs extensive restoration. But the spindle is still tight and if there is any ways wear its only detectable by dial indicator. The 10x24 was used by an old machinist who made carnival midway electro-mechanical widgets until last year, when he had a stroke. He's in his 80s. Plug 'n play condition because that old boy knew how to take care of his equipment. The prices were right. The first was 'free' for hauling it off. The second was $25, including a very full set of tooling.

    Having one mint condition 1950s machine to compare, I can say the Chinese still haven't come up to Atlas' former standard of workmanship. They just have the benefit of copying the more recent 1960s South Bend heavy designs that were derived by applying finite element analysis to lathe design.

    Here's another interesting comparison between a Rockwell drill press of the 1930s and what's sold at Harbor Freight today:

    http://www.owwm.com/delta/1941DrillPress.asp
    http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals...9999/39955.PDF

    I wish I could have found an old Rockwell like that in my area. I'd have bought it instantly rather than the 'new' Chinese drill press I got several years ago.

    >>Then we get the fools who buy these machines and subject them to rough workshop handling by unskilled operators and scream out about the cheap rubbish they've just bought.<<

    The difference is the machinist, not the gear. A true machinist will soon have great equipment even though he starts with junk. The fool can start with the latest Haas 5 axis VMC but will soon have only junk. In my opinion trained and motivated men are the only true 'capital'.

    'Bigger and better' equipment affects production rate, not quality

    >>Why do you think so many manufacturers go to third world countries to get their products made? Money, that's why and you and I are buying the stuff all the time, (and loving it).<<

    Maybe you are buying it. I've sworn off. The real question is whether it's the western worker or western executive who is overpaid and underskilled. There are a lot of hidden costs only now being discovered. You cannot import third world products without ultimately importing third world wages and living conditions.

    I spent a lot time in the third world before retiring from the US Army in my late 30s. These are all highly stratified societies with ruling classes based on family inheritance and ownership, not achievement. And with no social 'safety nets'. It's not uncommon for people to be left to die in ditches while multitudes pass by. Western 'capitalists', meaning those with access to cheap paper money and political influence, clearly think this is a great system. It's why more millions every year are losing their jobs and health insurance.

    There is a difference between 'backyard' and 'professional'. It lies entirely in the people doing the work. Paper money is not magic and cannot convert one piece of gound into 'professional'.

    My point is, don't overcomplicate things. One can quickly spend $6,000 buying foundry gear from Mifco that won't achieve any better result than is obtainable with shop made gear that 'cost' 5% as much to build. And if the foundryman with the $6,000 of 'professional' gear is no good then your better off using the pro who rolled his own equipment.



  8. #28
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    12177
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    .....By the way, I always understood ingots to be cast blocks from raw material, for conveniant handling and storage, and billets were always referred to as bar material that was cut to a specific length to enable a machine to handle it......
    Seems like I triggered a lot of useful verbosity with my mild comments ,

    For the lowdown on billets, ingots, forged, extruded, etc., and much other stuff go to that thread I referenced. The one with the word hermeneutics. I think it is the only one you will pull up in the search.



  9. #29
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Char, I have to agree with what you say wholeheartedly, but macinery made nowadays is not made to last.
    The Chinese have learned the lesson that the western cultures have not. That is, make it cheap, make lots of it and make it wanted.
    I've yet to see a buyer take a machine apart on the showroom floor and inspect it for flaws imperfections and bad paintwork.
    Yes, bad paintwork was the reason that one of the people I worked with faulted a Taiwanese lathe. Apparently the lathe in question had that greenish crackle finish applied directly to the casting and it had flaked off in a few places due to handling in transit.
    Car makers no longer make cars to last a century, and I doubt whether many people buy one to keep for any length of time. The Japanese taught us that.
    One thing for sure, go down to your machinery dealers showroom and note the machines on his shop floor.
    I hope we are not mistaking high quality machines made to very tight specifications with the other stuff which will outlast the majority of people that work them anyway.
    Have you ever seen the guy who when he goes to buy a used car lifts the bonnet (yep, it's got an engine) and then looks in the boot (yep got a spare tyre too) and then kicks the tyre (yep, got air in this one)?
    A similar guy I saw at our local machinery dealer was rolling the saddle up and down a lathe bed and muttering to himself, then he gripped the chuck and turned it around and around a few times, finaly he wiped a finger across the chipped and rough paint on the headstock and said 'load of ole' crap'. Interpreted to mean I can't afford it so I'll just rubbish it.
    What you say about importing third world wages is the ultimate cost of not recognising a trend or need.
    When the industries close down against competition it is always on price, never on quality. Jap cars USA cars.
    The customer is always right and will decide your fate. How patriotic can you get to buy a cheap foreign import when your own products are standing there.
    By the way aren't Bridgeports now cast in Taiwan and made there or have I got it wrong?
    Like I said the imports should have had a stiff tariff applied so that all "patriotic" buyers would have the choice to buy at the same price a foreign import or the real Mcoy home grown. What would you buy then? A genuine Bridgeport or a Taiwanese look alike?
    Admitted you wouldn't be able to export to China because they would have gone broke seeing as no-one was buying their machines. This would also mean that your export goods wouldn't sell either.
    The only way you'd be able to make cheap good quality machinery is if you went to a third world country, like anyone else, and got them to make it, and then import it and flog it on Ebay cheap. The old adage "never mind the quality, feel the width" is so true.
    In the western society we have a higher standard of living, because we have ethics and tend to want to have regulations and standards. We are governed by the need to aspire and achieve.
    The backyard business is by and large a mongrel with no credibility save being able to do it cheaper. Once you have become established and are able to prove that you have what it takes then you don't spoil it all by letting your standards slip.
    The fact that it is a backyard business speaks for itself. Certainly not by choice does someone work 7 days a week and 12 hours a day.
    In these circumstances all the niceties of safety regulations get overlooked and quality control becomes an urban myth.
    Ian.



  10. #30
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    SW Florida
    Posts
    24
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    So when you do a job with dubious materials and try to fob it off as "good quality" remember to apply for accreditation to get ISO 9000 or whatever the standard is and see what your up against.Ian.
    Ian,

    I understood what you meant is 'meets or exceeds specification'.

    But ISO 9001 has nothing to do with that. It's another advertising scam like 'free trade' and 'paper money'. The occurrence of ISO 9001 certification and 'quality' in the same place is coincidence, not cause and effect. I will say that ISO 9001 cert and higher product costs is cause and effect. It takes lots of time and often expensive consultants to meet the requirements.

    Great article here on ISO 9001. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9001

    ISO 9000 does not guarantee the quality of end products and services; rather, it certifies that consistent business processes are being applied.

    I love the pic of the ISO 9001 certified fish market. If we swim down to the school of fish will we find the ISO 9001 compliance fish someplace on the reef? I wonder where the compliance fish keeps his files?

    I joined the Army at 17. Before I retired to civilian life and work I thought it was the only organization stupid enough to think generating mountains of paper forms could guarantee consistent outcomes. Instead I discovered this superstition has more believers than any other religion.

    Mark



  11. #31
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    12177
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CharCad View Post
    ....ISO 9000 does not guarantee the quality of end products and services; rather, it certifies that consistent business processes are being applied....

    You must have found how difficult it is to convince people this is what ISO 9000 really means. You can be producing utter crap and have ISO 9000 and what it means is you have the procedures in place to make sure you do not accidentally make something worthwhile.



  12. #32
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    SW Florida
    Posts
    24
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Ian,

    Unfortunately I've never been to Australia, so I can't speak to 'backyard' conditions there. I still want to go Down Under some day.

    The fact that it is a backyard business speaks for itself. Certainly not by choice does someone work 7 days a week and 12 hours a day.
    In these circumstances all the niceties of safety regulations get overlooked and quality control becomes an urban myth.
    A friend of mine here in Florida ran a one man 'backyard' machine shop in Connecticut in the 1970s. Actually a home garage machine shop. Ted still says his dad was a machinist but he never was. That's mainly Ted's attitude towards quality and knowledge.

    Anyway, among "not a machinist" Ted's contracts was one for making all the elevator, aileron and rudder hinge sets for the A-10 Warthog. He made over 1,000 hinge sets using a Bridgeport mill and Hardinge lathe in his garage. Contractor and USAF inspectors used to come to his shop to inspect 'production'.

    You might be shocked at how much 'hi-tech' ends up being sub-sub-sub contracted out that way. No fancy two glass mirrored window industrial park location, just someone who knows what he's really doing.

    Regards,

    Mark



  13. #33
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Hi Char, yep I know what you mean. But paying lip service to the standards of industry is just another example of the lack of self discipline that it takes to become a leader in the industrial rat race, and not necessary a top producer.
    Abe Linc said "you can fool some of the people some of the time etc etc." So if the guidelines of industry are just ignored how can you be proud of your achievments.
    It's a bit like everyone printing their own money and passing it around. Well I suppose you do write cheques and pass them around.
    If you're that good at what you do and can impress enough people with your standard of workmanship then your fame will go before you and no-one will question your work.
    When I worked in the UK some years back a firm I worked for did sub-contract jobs for Rolls Royce.
    The parts we made were all checked by the person making them and then delivered to RR.
    We were responsible for our own individual QC and as such took great care in the final product.
    There was no room for error and 100% acceptance was achieved.
    Many of the parts went on Concorde and various military aircraft.
    We did not have ISO 9001 or anything like it then in 1975.
    ISO 9001 on your business card is an indication of business integrity and indicates that you are professional enough to mean what it says.
    I suppose there will always be those that have testimonials hanging on their walls for colleges they've never been to. Some desperately need it when all else fails.
    Ian.



  14. #34
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    SW Florida
    Posts
    24
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Geof View Post
    You must have found how difficult it is to convince people this is what ISO 9000 really means.
    Sometimes. There is a widespread myth that ISO cert somehow makes faceless long distance transactions 'safer'. I think it plays a supporting role in the Legend of the Benefits of International Free Trade.

    You can be producing utter crap and have ISO 9000 and what it means is you have the procedures in place to make sure you do not accidentally make something worthwhile.
    Exactly.



  15. #35
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Hi Char, re post #17, where I last worked our toolroom chargehand left after many years to go full time on his own business.
    He is a very meticulous toolmaker by trade and couldn't abide sloppy workmanship. One of the reasons why he left was dealing with people that tried to fob off work that was second rate and worse.
    There will always be those people who value pride of workmanship above all else.
    Incidently when the firm aquired accreditation to ISO 9001 we would get surprise visits from the bureau of standards to make sure we were complying with the rules.
    I don't know how anyone can get away with sloppy standards. On one occasion we slipped up and we were given a warning and a time limit to get back in line.
    Ian.



  16. #36
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Backyard business generally refers to those set-ups where an old worn out bit of machinery is persuaded to perform miracles above and beyond the expectations of the makers when the machine was new. Also material is gleaned from scrap metal yards with no pedigree whatsoever, as long as it's cheap.
    Ian.



  17. #37
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    G'nite all I'm off to bed, it's 4 AM and I've turned into a pumpkin.
    Ian.



  18. #38
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    12177
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CharCad View Post
    ... Legend of the Benefits of International Free Trade.....
    Hey don't knock Free Trade, we export to 14 countries including the U.S. of A.



  19. #39
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    SW Florida
    Posts
    24
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Backyard business generally refers to those set-ups where an old worn out bit of machinery is persuaded to perform miracles above and beyond the expectations of the makers when the machine was new.
    Ian,

    Isn't being on specification and time with contracted product the most important part? Or am I missing something?

    Also material is gleaned from scrap metal yards with no pedigree whatsoever, as long as it's cheap.
    Ian.
    If someone is substituting below standard materials to what's specified or known to be required, then I agree with you. That's fraud. Reverting to the 'Ted A-10' example, he mentioned the government inspectors were hot about making certain he was only using the steel stock he'd been supplied, and that material substitution wasn't occurring.

    'Gold plating' is equally wasteful and can needlessly cost the customer extra money.

    'Caveat emptor' still applies no matter how much paperwork we try to wrap around it. If the 'specification' permits it, what's wrong with using 'junk'? GM, every mini-mill in the country and the Chinese all make extensive use of scrap metals.

    In my opinion metal part problems arise more often from improper or omitted heat treating than from using improper alloys or even hydrogen porosity in aluminum.

    Mark



  20. #40
    Registered Kipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1062
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Threadjacked

    Keith


Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


About CNCzone.com

    We are the largest and most active discussion forum for manufacturing industry. The site is 100% free to join and use, so join today!

Follow us on


Our Brands

Cast or Machine

Cast or Machine