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  1. #1
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    Default Wincnc

    I have just signed on to some cnc forums and I see that most talk about their controllers but it is blocked on the Camaster forum What is the reason for this. I post as I was having trouble posting on the Camaster forum

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    Member ger21's Avatar
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    DO you mean they won't let you talk about WinCNC on their forum?

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    they took the forum down so you can not see any problems that wincnc has you would have to ask permission to get into this portion of the forum. I have seen Jim post to others that have other cncs to go to the camaster forum and ask but they would now be blocked from getting help.



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    The WinCNC section of the CAMHeads forum has been moved to the Owners section. (passwords for CAMaster Owners only) The reasons for this are as follows:
    1) CAMaster has a number of proprietary codes, features and macros that have been developed for our machines only. We prefer to keep these in house and not have them distributed to those that do not own our machines.
    2) Enduser distribution of these macros, and INI settings to those with non CAMaster machines has been problematic for WinCNC and CAMaster Tech Support when less than knowledgeable users have tried to implement our features on WinCNC cards that are not setup for them.
    3) In many cases users that don't own a CAMaster, or even operate on WinCNC will interject derogatory comments intended to degrade our product or worse yet, confuse a new user by causing doubt about his purchase. All experienced users should remember the "unknowing” stress that is associated with new machine ownership and either "pay it forward" with genuine help to the newbie, or watch silently from the sidelines.
    4) Forum users that don’t make positive contributions often take user or machine issues observed (yes we have both) and post these issues, most often out of context, on other forums with no intent other than brand bashing. These same users often post seemingly innocent questions to the unknowing but in the end, are negatively biased comments posted on most any thread that they can.
    5) All forums that I have participated in have a private section. Items 1) thru 4) above are our reasons for moving one section of ours. Items 3) and 4) are the exact reasons why most forums keep sections private.

    My questions to you, mr. fixtureman1 is as follows: Which of these groups do you belong to? Do you own a CNC machine? My guess is that you do not have any positive interest in what is said in the WinCNC section of the CAMHeads Forum, that you for sure don't have a CAMaster, and nor you do not have a copy of WinCNC registered to your name. By that process of elimination and the negative intonation of posts that I have observed you make on CAMaster related issues on this forum, I would be willing to guess, maybe even wager, that you belong to the kool aid drinkers that have confused "the best there is" with "the one I purchased". If my guesses are true, then what constructive agenda would one such as yourself have to post here a question that you could have posted on the CAMHeads forum?
    I also would venture a guess that if you do own a CNC machine that it not anywhere near a current model of whatever brand it is. 5 to 6 yrs old at best. Do you post similar negative posts on your mfgr’s forum? If you are DIY, please accept my apologies.

    I usually refuse to post on a forum that allows "handles" in lieu of proper names, but I would like to learn why yourself and a few others that own one brand of CNC machine instigate and propagate negativities towards other brands of machines. One cannot improve their position in life, or the afterlife, by making others feel worse. We all belong to the brotherhood of small CNC endusers. Can’t we all just get along?

    I am including my proper name.
    Gary Campbell
    Production Mgr
    CAMaster CNC



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    CAMheads is the nonprofit forum for support of the CAMaster owner. many are encouraged to participate in the general forum as it benefits the owners of the machines. this is the policy of the shopbot forum as well and many of us are members as long as we respect their forum rules.

    We are placing a new discussion for wincnc forum along with some other reworks that come with the growth of a forum,, Gerry, I have seen the changes CNCzone has done and from time to time it has to happen, general discussion is welcome but Knowing the need for Beta and privacy concerns (Both Ger and I sit on one of these forums, this is listed in the credits of the software we help) Some company privacy is to be expected, basically all machine companies protect their info using beta forums for R&D progress

    James McGrew CAMaster 508 ATC
    www.mcgrewwoodwork.com http://dropc.am/p/EJaKyl


  6. #6

    Default Re: Wincnc

    Quote Originally Posted by fixtureman1 View Post
    I have just signed on to some cnc forums and I see that most talk about their controllers but it is blocked on the Camaster forum What is the reason for this. I post as I was having trouble posting on the Camaster forum
    I am very interested in WinCNC. I have a CNT MOTION Series 1000 router, circa 2003 with a control software and computer update in mid-2010. I bought the machine used and I am trying to learn to properly program it.

    WinCNC is very much different from the ISO Fanuc standard. My biggest challenge is how to create Local Zeros/Part Zeros/Work Coordinate Systems. WinCNC does not use G54/55/56/57 for this action. It seems to me the method WinCNC chose to handle this issue is a kludge, but I am a newbie and I probably just do not understand how to do it properly.

    I am ANXIOUS to discuss this with anyone who understands WinCNC and especially the CNT Motion implementation of WinCNC.

    Regards,
    Joe T.



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    Member cabnet636's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wincnc

    I would call Kelly or Mike at Wincnc, great bunch of fellows and the CNT is a good machine, it is a widely used software and I have had it on several machines. not real bright or have time to help on my end.

    those guys may charge you a fee but it will be worth it

    James McGrew CAMaster 508 ATC
    www.mcgrewwoodwork.com http://dropc.am/p/EJaKyl


  8. #8

    Default Re: Wincnc

    Quote Originally Posted by cabnet636 View Post
    I would call Kelly or Mike at Wincnc, great bunch of fellows and the CNT is a good machine, it is a widely used software and I have had it on several machines. not real bright or have time to help on my end.

    those guys may charge you a fee but it will be worth it
    Thank you.

    I have spoken to Kelly many times. I truly appreciate his help. But, I am afraid I am becoming 'a bother.' Actually, I plan to call him today for more info.

    I wish there was a more comprehensive WinCNC programming manual.

    Regards,
    Joe T.



  9. #9

    Default Re: Wincnc

    Quote Originally Posted by cabnet636 View Post
    I would call Kelly or Mike at Wincnc, great bunch of fellows and the CNT is a good machine, it is a widely used software and I have had it on several machines. not real bright or have time to help on my end.

    those guys may charge you a fee but it will be worth it
    Cabnet636,

    If you could direct me to someone who has a lot of experience setting 'work offsets' using WinCNC, I would greatly appreciate it. I need the ability to set the local zero (part zero, work coordinate system) anywhere within the work volume of the machine.

    Regards,
    Joe T.



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    Default Re: Wincnc

    Joe...
    Are you looking to use workspace offsets (G54, G55, G56, G57, etc), positions (P# register) or multiple saved local zero locations (H# register)? If yocan explain what you wish to do I may be able to point you in the proper direction.



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    Default Re: Wincnc

    I have a brand new CAMaster Cobra ATC. I do not like WINCNC. They did not follow decades of gcode and m code standards. For example they use H# commands rather than G54..... H commands are brought up by the G43 command in nearly every single CNC machine made aside from some other odd balls like Sharnoa. P# commands have been brought up as "pause" after a G4 but WINCNC brings up P as "position". I do not understand the difference between their "position" and "home" calls. There are also several errors with G3 and G2 (circular interps) that will drive you crazy. G54..5..6..7..etc... are saved in the WINCNC.INI file which must be manually entered. I have never seen this after 20 years in the biz. James, a great guy always willing to help, will recognize my complaints from the CAMheads forums. I will get use to it, as anyone will. But it is a very confusing system. I suspect WINCNC was trying to be clever and simplify standardized Gcode in ways that are not used, or taught, anywhere else.

    I do suggest joining CAMheads.org. There is always helpful advice and everyone is friendly.



  12. #12

    Default Re: Wincnc

    Quote Originally Posted by islaww View Post
    Joe...
    Are you looking to use workspace offsets (G54, G55, G56, G57, etc), positions (P# register) or multiple saved local zero locations (H# register)? If yocan explain what you wish to do I may be able to point you in the proper direction.

    First off, I would like to apologize for not replying to this post MUCH SOONER! I guess I missed the email notification that was sent when it was posted - or my senility is running amok again! However, I did receive the email notice yesterday for the post below yours. I will respond to that in my next post.

    I have learned a lot about the CNC Motion 1000 machine I own and the version of WinCNC that came with it (WinCNC) since my post in March of 2015.

    I find the WinCNC controller very limiting, especially regarding work offsets. The version of WinCNC I have is circa 2010 and more info on it is in the screenshot below.

    Most of the machines which use WinCNC are for cabinet shops, furniture builders, etc. At least that is my impression. Those machines typically have a Z stroke of ~7" to 11". They are designed to perform "2D" work. I bought my machine specifically to do 3D carving to make tooling (patterns) for my composite airplane project. The machine that I bought (used) was 'SPECed out' to do this very task by its original owner, Mr. Amit at Midland Fiberglass. My machine has a 36" Z-stroke. See photo below.

    Work offset is critical to do 3D carving. The way WinCNC performs this critical function is to use the archaic 'G92' function. G92 is hidden in the "Home Positions" settings. An example of some of my 'Home Positions' is shown in the third photo. I still have no idea what the difference is between 'Home Position' and 'Position.'

    Using G92 (or Home Position #) will cause the machine to move to the Home Position before starting the tool path movements. That is probably OK for flat panel work. But what if you are making a complex shape which will require 'pseudo 5-axis' work. Or, multi machining positions of the workpiece so the 3-axis router can get access to an undercut area. See the 'Stock photo' and the 'part photo.' Part is blue, stock is red. A second view of the part is shown as if it were on a sine plate and tilted 45 degrees for access to the undercut.

    The secondary machining position cases typically do not allow a discrete 'X, Y, Z' position for a Home Position since the machine moves to the Home Position before the cutting begins. The stock/part in machining position 1 (flat on the table, side view) can just have X and Y in its Home Position and have no Z position called out. That works fine since if the local offset Z is at the table top. But, what about the secondary machining position case when it is partially machined and on the sine table, which has the whole part elevated and tilted? You can not use the table top for Z Home Position.

    If WinCNC used the standard ISO G-Code and had G54/G55/G56/G57 for the work offsets, one could pick the bottom corner of the re-positioned part sitting on the sine table and enter in the X, Y, Z coordinates directly into the G54 setup. G54 is then subsequently called out in the program as the work offset ONLY (no tool point move to G54) and all subsequent positions are referenced from that point.

    I have not figured out how to ACCURATELY position a work offset for a second machining position if the part is not on the table top - or at least one corner of it.

    I hope I explained this concern clearly.

    Any suggestions? I am new to this and any/all help and advice is greatly appreciated!

    Regards,
    Joe T.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Wincnc-wincnc-version-jpg   Wincnc-zoning-table-2-8-11-2015-jpg   Wincnc-home-positions-jpg   Wincnc-side-view-test-model-complex-machining-end  

    Wincnc-complex-stock-machining-without-end-cap-jpg   Wincnc-oblique-view-complex-test-part-end-cap  


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    Default Re: Wincnc

    Joe...
    Having not gone back in the version notes far enough to verify these commands work on your version 2.4.11 I would suggest that if your offset use is variable, i.e., needs to be added on the fly or in between file runs making the hard coded G55,56,57, etc offsets unusable, look into the G92.1 and G92.2 commands. They will apply shifts, or offsets to the current cords without any movement of the head. They can be entered into the command line from the keyboard or entered into files/macros.

    Of course, they are in the manual, and the latest can be downloaded from the WinCNC.net website. Sorry that I am not able to verify which commands are available in your legacy version.


    I am going to guess that you (Joe) and warren both came from the Industrial Controller world. The world is, and sadly has to be much different for CNC control when operated in the Windows environment. I am not crazy enough to try and compare a $1K controller to those costing $10K+, you cant. That said, you are being unrealistic in expecting the same features and ever more unrealistic in expecting the same syntax between two products with a tenfold difference in price and operational overhead. This is akin to jumping in a Mustang and saying how the radio buttons suck compared to the Maserati you have been driving for a number of years.

    You can be sure that all lesser priced products have imitations or workarounds of all the good stuff in the high end controllers. Most of us have thanked the developers, not made a cynical statement on how they were "trying to be clever".

    If you are going to be successful operating a machine on WinCNC, I suggest you learn it, don't put off the techs or loyal users with sour grapes comments, then ask for help. We know the high end stuff may be better, but we also know that hundreds of users that do not have the pedigrees that you don't hesitate to list are cutting stuff similar to what you show every day.

    Last edited by islaww; 01-22-2016 at 07:26 PM.
    Gary Campbell GCnC Control
    Servo Control & ATC Retrofits


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    Member cabnet636's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wincnc

    Most all of what you are talking about is FAR over my head or need. I am sure it has a place for those who wish to go there, that said I am a cabinetmaker with two machines, at the price ranges these machines produce 1-1.5 mil annually and for the 5 of us this is were We want to be, beyond that I have done extensive signage, 3d work including large molds for GRFC construction in Classical architectural products, this whole CNC has been very healthy for us. additionally I have made some good friends at WINcnc, Vectric and CAMaster. for the product they sell the one they represent they have not let a single question go unanswered if it was within the scope of what they put out there.

    I once complained to a vendor about how fast he could produce a high end one off molding to me, just a few hundred feet, He turned and simply said "Get out yer wallet Son, Everything has a value and this is how you will find it "

    James McGrew CAMaster 508 ATC
    www.mcgrewwoodwork.com http://dropc.am/p/EJaKyl


  15. #15

    Default Re: Wincnc

    Quote Originally Posted by islaww View Post
    Joe...
    Having not gone back in the version notes far enough to verify these commands work on your version 2.4.11 I would suggest that if your offset use is variable, i.e., needs to be added on the fly or in between file runs making the hard coded G55,56,57, etc offsets unusable, look into the G92.1 and G92.2 commands. They will apply shifts, or offsets to the current cords without any movement of the head. They can be entered into the command line from the keyboard or entered into files/macros.

    Of course, they are in the manual, and the latest can be downloaded from the WinCNC.net website. Sorry that I am not able to verify which commands are available in your legacy version.


    I am going to guess that you (Joe) and warren both came from the Industrial Controller world. The world is, and sadly has to be much different for CNC control when operated in the Windows environment. I am not crazy enough to try and compare a $1K controller to those costing $10K+, you cant. That said, you are being unrealistic in expecting the same features and ever more unrealistic in expecting the same syntax between two products with a tenfold difference in price and operational overhead. This is akin to jumping in a Mustang and saying how the radio buttons suck compared to the Maserati you have been driving for a number of years.

    You can be sure that all lesser priced products have imitations or workarounds of all the good stuff in the high end controllers. Most of us have thanked the developers, not made a cynical statement on how they were "trying to be clever".

    If you are going to be successful operating a machine on WinCNC, I suggest you learn it, don't put off the techs or loyal users with sour grapes comments, then ask for help. We know the high end stuff may be better, but we also know that hundreds of users that do not have the pedigrees that you don't hesitate to list are cutting stuff similar to what you show every day.
    islaww,

    I just looked at your information at the bottom of your post. Gary, you and I have had these discussions on the phone ad nauseum. .

    I don't agree with your statement: "The world is, and sadly has to be much different for CNC control when operated in the Windows environment. I am not crazy enough to try and compare a $1K controller to those costing $10K+, you cant."

    Mach3 is affordable and even comes with extensive manuals showing proper syntax, etc. No user/operating manuals are available with WinCNC, which you and I have discussed. WinCNc has an installation/reference manual provided for experienced OEMs. It is practically useless as an operating manual, as we have discussed and you agreed!! It would take little effort to write an decent operators manuals with examples of each command including proper syntax.

    Kelly contends it is 'not his job' to create an operator's manual, yet other low end control software provides information on how to PROPERLY use their version of G-Code.

    Here is the Mach3 manual:

    http://www.machsupport.com/wp-conten...3Mill_1.84.pdf

    Machmotion is another affordable control software, but their business model has changed to selling complete control systems - servos, drives, and control. But, even before they stopped selling JUST control software, they had operator manuals online:

    http://machmotion.com/documentation/...e%20Manual.pdf

    I believe Kelly is incredibly wrong and that is hurting his business. He sells control software for low end machines. No one is going to hire someone to come to their facility for training if they have one machine adn one programmer in a cabinet shop. To expect anything else is not being realistic.

    By the way, addressing your comment on using 'G92.1, etc.' from the Machmotion manual:


    G92, G92.1, G92.2 & G92.3 Offsets


    ATTENTION

    It is strongly advised not to use this legacy feature on any axis where
    there is another offset applied including cutter comp.


    To make the current point have the coordinates you want (without motion), program G92 X~ Y~ Z~
    A~ B~ C~, where the axis words contain the axis numbers you want. All axis words are optional,
    except that at least one must be used. If an axis word is not used for a given axis, the coordinate on that
    axis of the current point is not changed. It is an error if:

     All axis words are omitted

    G52 and G92 use common internal mechanisms in Mach3 and may not be used together.(I do not know if this is true with WinCNC)


    When G92 is executed, the origin of the currently active coordinate system moves. To do this, origin
    offsets are calculated so that the coordinates of the current point with respect to the moved origin are
    as specified on the line containing the G92. In addition, parameters 5211 to 5216 are set to the X, Y, Z, A,
    B, and C-axis offsets. The offset for an axis is the amount the origin must be moved so that the
    coordinate of the controlled point on the axis has the specified value.

    Here is an example. Suppose the current point is at X=4 in the currently specified coordinate system and
    the current X-axis offset is zero, then G92 X7 sets the X-axis offset to -3, sets parameter 5211 to -3, and
    causes the X-coordinate of the current point to be 7.

    The axis offsets are always used when motion is specified in absolute distance mode using any of the
    fixture coordinate systems. Thus all fixture coordinate systems are affected by G92.

    Being in incremental distance mode has no effect on the action of G92.

    Non-zero offsets may be already be in effect when the G92 is called. They are in effect discarded before
    the new value is applied. Mathematically the new value of each offset is A+B, where A is what the offset
    would be if the old offset were zero, and B is the old offset. For example, after the previous example,
    the X value of the current point is 7. If G92 X9 is then programmed, the new X-axis offset is -5, which is
    calculated by [[7-9] + -3]. Put another way the G92 X9 produces the same offset whatever G92 offset
    was already in place.

    To reset axis offsets to zero, program G92.1 or G92.2 G92.1 sets parameters 5211 to 5216 to zero,
    whereas G92.2 leaves their current values alone.

    To set the axis offset values to the values given in parameters 5211 to 5216, program G92.3

    You can set axis offsets in one program and use the same offsets in another program. Command G92 in
    the first program. This will set parameters 5211 to 5216. Do not use G92.1 in the remainder of the first
    program. The parameter values will be saved when the first program exits and restored when the
    second one starts up. Use G92.3 near the beginning of the second program. That will restore the offsets
    saved in the first program.


    Compare this to the information included in WinCNC's 'Manual:'

    G92
    Set Local Coordinates - G92 X# Y# Z# W#
    Used to specify a new coordinate system for running absolute mode programs. Use G92 alone to restore the Machine Coordinates. G92 X0 Y0 Z0 W0 sets the current position to zero. G92 then restores the Machine Coordinates values.
    **If running a .tap, .mac, .nc etc file, and there is a G92 in the file, and the user wishes to maintain that G92 after the file is done and closed, then a L92 must be added at the end of the file.


    G92.1
    Shift MZ Coordinates - G92.1 X# Y# Z# W#
    Similar to G92 except that the coordinate system produced shifts Machine Zero by the amount specified. This is useful since a given local coordinate system can be set without positioning the head to a certain position first. G92 X10 Y10 sets the absolute position X10 Y10 to X0 Y0 in local coordinates. G92.1 may also be used to restore a single axis to absolute coordinates. G92.1 X0 leaves YZW local coordinates but sets X back to absolute coordinates.

    G92.2
    Shift LZ Coordinates - G92.2 X# Y# Z# W#
    Similar to G92.1 except that the coordinate system shift is added to the current local coordinates instead of replacing them. This is useful for ‘jogging’ a local position. If the Z head has been set for running a G90 mode file but then needs to set to cut .010” deeper, G92.2 Z-.01 will accomplish this with a single command. Can be useful as a macro.

    G92.3
    Stores and Restores G92 values
    Allows the user to switch back and forth between local and absolute coordinates. Use the G92.3 command without any parameters or axis characters. If G92 positions are set on any axis then they will be stored and cleared. The next G92.3 call will restore the previous G92 values even if they have been cleared by using G92.


    Kelly's manual has very limited information and is almost useless unless the operator is very conversant in WinCNC. Like I said, it is at best a reference manual.

    I am a big fan of Kelly's and I truly hope he is able to take an antiquated product and upgrade it to current standards and provide proper documentation. His argument that it is the OEM's job to provide operator's/programming manuals just doesn't ring true.


    When I get time to respond to the post from warrenb, I will explain another incredible deficiency of WinCNC. It is a major flaw.

    Regards,
    Joe T.



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    Default Re: Wincnc

    Joe...
    Sorry... I didn't make the connection. You are correct, we have had this conversation ad nauseum. I would have assumed you had solved your problems by now. I don't profess to be as qualified as you are, but really can't imagine a machine with no inoperative parts running WinCNC that wouldn't be running properly after a day. Usually a short day. It's just math.

    I suggest you select a control system that meets your needs and install that. Or learn the one you have. Pick a lane.

    I also came from a completely different control, one that did use any GCode or G,L or M commands. I suffered thru the learning curve. I had to, as I worked for one of the OEM's and was one of the middlemen between WinCNC and the enduser. During that time I was nothing short of impressed with the support from the crew at WinCNC.

    Good luck with your choice, GC

    Gary Campbell GCnC Control
    Servo Control & ATC Retrofits


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    Default Re: Wincnc

    Yah, I'm not a huge fan of wincnc either, but it is what it it is for a reason, mostly to help machine builders build machines that solve peoples problems. No doubt it works for that or no one would still use it, there are other products like Linux cnc, uccnc, waiting in the wings.

    For the most part, you get used to any control. Sure, I'd love to pause and adjust my z height, but I can't can know it and live with it.

    The CNT can be wired up for another control in a week or weekend with help probably, no excuse not to change controls if it really doesn't cut it.

    I may yet do so myself!

    Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Wincnc

    Greg...
    Are you talking about up/down z tweaks while running a file? If so, you can do this without stopping. Check out the "axisadj" command. Will let you raise/lower the Z a few thousandths per key press. If you were looking for a coded amount after a pause, yes you are correct.

    Gary Campbell GCnC Control
    Servo Control & ATC Retrofits


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    Default Re: Wincnc

    I'll take a look, might be I need to move to a more recent version, but that would give me a reason to do so. Thanks for the heads up!

    Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Wincnc

    joe

    call in wincnc, and ask for mike...

    he going to help you...

    I sending him message now... to see this topic...



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