Hoss ATC Project


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    Default Hoss ATC Project

    Hey Gang,
    Can anyone tell me the total length of the R8 drawbar for the X3?
    Also, any source to buy a replacement?
    Grizzlytools shows one in their parts list but doesn't give the length.
    Thanks Hoss

    Similar Threads:
    Last edited by hoss2006; 09-25-2007 at 03:29 PM. Reason: Decided to document the Automatic Tool Changer project in a new thread, The other one is getting a little big


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    OK Great, thanks.
    Still would like to know the length first to see if it will work for what i had in mind.
    Thanks Hoss



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    i know it can be hard to find length of draw bar online, unless someone has posted on forum or something. Couple weeks back i was trying to find length of Bridgeport M head draw bar to make my own, but had no luck, ended up buying used one localy



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    From a UK supplied X3 R8 with metric leadscrews:

    Length from bottom of head to end of thread 10.75" 273mm
    Threaded length 1.25" 32mm
    Thread 7/16" - 20tpi (UNF)
    Head across flats 17mm



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    Thanks M100,
    As I was thinking it's a little long for what I want.
    I made my own about 6 5/8 long.
    Can you guess what it's for?
    Power Drawbar.
    Step one of the ATC.
    Hoss

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hoss ATC Project-img_1039_800x600-jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by hoss2006 View Post
    Thanks M100,
    As I was thinking it's a little long for what I want.
    I made my own about 6 5/8 long.
    Can you guess what it's for?
    Power Drawbar.
    Step one of the ATC.
    Hoss
    Very nice I look forward to seeing this ATC project unfold.

    Have you sorted out mist/flood coolant yet - I would have thought that it's essential if you want to run unattended?



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    Hey Digits,
    I decided on flood coolant with an enclosure made from wood covered with a
    few coats of Herculiner liquid truck bed liner.
    The ATC will be a little more fun to tackle so I'm gonna do it first.
    Hoss



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    Hey hoss, just take a depth gage stick it in the spindle upside down , get that measurement , then measure from the top of the drawbar nut to the bottom of spidle and deduct your first measurement.



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    Hey Hoss. Great to see you starting this! I cant wait to see what you come up with. I'm slowly getting things on paper to start designing my own as well. A quick question. How much force is required to hold the tool holder? The LMS one says they're doing 1000lbs. Thats going to take a huge air piston to move at 100psi.

    Thanks!



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    Hey Red,
    I read somewhere that 600 lbs is enough force to hold a tool in an R8 collet.
    So far I've found these cheap Bimba's at Surplus Center that put out 440 lbs.
    With leverage, it should work just fine. At only $3.95, it's worth experimenting with.
    Probably get a few just to have them.
    The cam and lever only needs to move the collet about 1/8 inch I figure.
    Later Hoss
    http://www.hossmachine.com



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    Awesome. Thanks for the info.

    (removed post because I'm stupid)



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    Found these spring washers at MSC Direct that look very similar
    to what the LMS power drawbar uses.
    I think 3 pairs would give plenty of force to hold the R8 tools.
    6 washers = almost .100 deflection and 1044 lbs used like this ()()()
    Might even be able to use the stock X2 drawbar instead of making a custom one.
    Have to give it a try.
    Hoss



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    Hoss if you stack the springs in a series. You will not get the load you mention. You'll only get the load of a single washer but the deflection of all 6.

    Parallel Stack - (((((((( - Force is multiplied by the number of washers while deflection remains constant to one washer.

    Series Stack - )()()()( - Force is constant to one washer while deflection is multiplied by the number of total washers

    Series and parallel - ))(())(( - Force is multiplied by how many washers are in a parallel group. Deflection is multiplied by how many total groups there are.

    Hope this helps you out. Should be a good footing on the ways to use them.

    Last edited by RedDog22; 09-25-2007 at 04:19 PM.


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    Any chance you can tell me how much room you have to work with? I could try and find a good washer and how to stack them.

    You'll need to be able to preload them to 600 pounds and still have the .1" of total deflection left to get the tool out. Guess that explains why they needed the 1000psi to get the tool out. Since you'll have to overcome the 600 preloaded pounds to get that final deflection.



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    Way to go Red, make me have to think
    After eyeing the LMS PDB a little closer, I see they do stack 6 washers in series.
    Did some research on the Belleville Spring Washer.
    If you want to get out the slide rule check here.
    The deflection I think I'll need is about 1/8 inch.
    One turn of the drawbar to tighten the collet (per LMS instructions) = .050.
    That leaves .075 to release the tool.
    MSC Direct has these spring washers that will give 936 lbs of force (1674 lbs flat) and .132 total deflection
    for (6) 1.750 OD washers stacked in series like the LMS. I think. ()()()
    A bit pricier than the 1.0 OD ones.
    I'll have to peek at the Matsura at work, Dave said it uses spring washers to retain the tools but 60,000 lbs worth.

    Last edited by hoss2006; 09-25-2007 at 06:42 PM.


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    I didn't do the math or anything. But as long as the .050" of pretensioning is enough to load the washers to 600 pounds of force, you're fine.

    Have you given McMasterCarr any thought on the washers? Found these specs...
    Minimum Inside Diameter .630"
    Maximum Outside Diameter 1.250"
    Thickness .089"
    Overall Height .111"
    Load 979 lbs.
    Deflection at Load .011"
    Flat Load 1,914 lbs.

    Also, don't forget. You're not limited to 6 washers like what LMS is using. You can use 4, 10, 50 if you really wanted. And you don't need to have .050 to load 600lbs either. Maybe you need to turn your drawbar nut 2 turns in before its loaded. Just as long as its loaded and still has enough deflection left to drop your tool holder from the collet.



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    ah i am sure alot of people where waiting for this one and i am one of them, cant wait to see how it will turn out hoss

    The opinions expressed in this post are my own. -Les opinions exprimé dans ce messages sont les mienne


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    Ok, think I'll order these Belleville washers from MSC (I already have an account).
    They are metric but I get the most for my buck.
    ID=12.2 mm (.480 in) just the right size to fit the drawbar.
    Load=2910 N (654 lbs)
    Deflection=.41 mm (.016 in)
    A pack of 10 is only $6
    Gives me plenty to experiment with.
    I figure stacked in series ()()() should give 654 lbs with .096 in total deflection.
    or
    stacked series/parallel (())(())(()) should give 1308 lbs with .096 deflection.
    or
    ()()()()=654 lbs, .128 deflection
    should be able to get one of these scenarios to do the job, Eh Red?
    Hoss



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    I forgot to ask. You said you think it will take.125" of travel to loosen the the collet enough? Or that only a guess? If it does truly need that. You'll need to calculate what it will take to preload the washers to 600 pounds. And then still have another .125 of deflection left.

    654 pounds wont be enough. Because you'll need to have them basically compressed all the way(to reach the 600). You wont be left with any spare room to loosen the collet.

    But both of things go with how much space do you truly need to get the tool holder out? And how much minimum force do you truly need to hold your tool in place? Until you know its all guess work. But that is the great thing about using Belleville washers in a spring stack. You can flop them around, add more, use stronger ones. All to get you where you need to be.



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