Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?


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    Default Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    I swear I'm finally going to do it - tired of turning handles. Going to leave my Bridgeport as it is, but I'm going to bolt some motors on my G0704. Thinking of a standardish stepper setup to start, but I'd like to upgrade to something like Clearpath motors (if I have been reading correctly) after I sell more parts. Figuring on a Masso controller right now, since I'm also growing tired of playing "hack the computer" stuff... So I'm going to do the ballscrews/mounts, the motors, the drivers, and ultimately the controller? I can write g-code to deal with the relatively simple parts I've been doing. Ideas? Recommendations?

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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    The 570 oz stepper from A/T is still the best Nema 23 stepper out there. It is really a Nema 24 body with a 23 mounting face. $39


    Go get CamBam for CAM work if you plan on doing almost anything. Best $100 you will spend.

    Draftsight is free and works great for 2D CAD.

    Its a little harder on driver.

    youtube videos of the G0704 under the name arizonavideo99


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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    (Relative newbie here; both to the forum, and also fairly limited machining experience apart from an ~8 month class roughly a year ago).

    For my CNC lathe project, I got the motors and drivers from Automation Technologies, but mostly because they had "better stuff" (more selection and lower prices) than what I was finding on Amazon or similar at the time. A lot of the remaining electronics and other parts originally came from Amazon, and most of the fabricated mechanical parts are made from "whatever junk is laying around", ... (My parents are mostly funding this project; don't actually have any real source of income myself).

    From Automation Technologies:
    Got some 570 oz-in NEMA23's for X and Z, seem to work well, though Z takes a lot of torque (so could possibly use a bigger motor). These were part of a 2-axis kit (also came with a 48V power supply, a 5V supply, some motor drivers, ...). They also have 3 axis kits, which could be useful for a mill. Also got some motor cables, which are also fairly useful (need cable from wherever the motor is mounted to wherever the controller is at), ...

    Also got a nice NEMA34 (1805 oz-in) to use as an alternate spindle motor from them, and the KL-11080 driver. Though, forewarning, it seems this combination isn't particularly fast (seems to start having issues and dropping out much over around 500-600 RPM or so). The driver can do 8 amps/phase (thus, lots of torque for a big motor), but seems like its voltage isn't particularly high (don't know exactly, haven't measured). The directions said to wire it as BP-serial, but in my tests I seemed to be getting best performance with BP-parallel at ~ 6A/ph; granted wiring it as BP-parallel wont give maximum torque. I am not really sure why they make that comment, it doesn't seem to match what I am seeing (I tested both wiring schemes). Just in terms of RPM (ignoring torque/...), it seems I can get higher speeds from this motor by using a small stepper driver running off a 48V supply (though, for the use-case it needs a lot more amps than it can realistically get from the 48V supply and a small stepper driver).


    We previously did the mill, using a FlashCut kit on a G0704 (the kit as resold by Grizzly), but this kit was rather expensive and still didn't work flawlessly (in all, the CNC kit ended up costing more than the mill itself).

    The box used internal drivers, but there were issues, along the line of the machine typically losing position (often when right in the middle of a chunk of steel), and even setting the max and ramp speeds really slow didn't entirely fix it (the tech-support people couldn't say much, apparently everything worked on their end with an apparently otherwise nearly identical setup). Hooking up some external drivers (with a 48V 10A supply) to the box (via a DB25 cable) basically fixed the issue. Their software and box does seem to work pretty well otherwise, but for several $k one would hope for something where everything works flawlessly out of the box.

    Though, even as such, this combination was still cheaper than a similar-class CNC mill, and most other "CNC machines" in a similar price range were rather unimpessive looking desktop models. So, can't complain too much I guess.


    Though, maybe not with such nicely made mounting hardware, it didn't seem there was much there I couldn't do myself, hence going a "more custom" route on the lathe.


    For the controller for the lathe, was using a Raspberry Pi 2 with custom written software (in C), mostly as I already had the RasPi2 (but don't have an old PC with a parallel port or similar).
    But, didn't see many options for existing CNC control software for the RasPi.


    Using steppers with the existing motors seems to work well enough IMO; replacing the leadscrews with ballscrews seems like a relatively complicated and expensive modification (and, likewise, servos are expensive, ...). Hence why I think a lot of these kits just take off the handles and drive where the handles used to go via a stepper.


    Though, the FlashCut kits generally use timing belt-drives for everything rather than direct coupling or gear drive. I suspect this is because it is a little easier in terms of alignment or similar. With my attempts at rigid couplers (made of steel) for the lathe, the motors seem to shift all over during movement, so I ended up having to mount them on top of closed-cell foam (Z) or rubber grommets (X). Whether or not all this is bad for the bearings, I don't know.

    A "better" coupler could possibly be something with a little give, like maybe a spider coupler or similar. ( Maybe some really heavy fiber-reinforced rubber tubing, untested. Soft plastics or hot glue+paper are unable to withstand the torque involved and quickly shear apart. )



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    I'd be leery of the Masso. Lot's of reviews saying it just isn't a fully developed product.

    Look at the Centroid Acorn.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    If looking at just getting it going and then upgrading as you go I'd go this route to start:
    The expensive ballscrews you plan on using.
    Then cheap out for now:
    Nema34 stepper 800-1000oz/in + PSU + driver kits off ebay for x,y. (Might get away with smaller)
    Nema34 stepper 1600oz/in + PSU + driver kit off ebay for z.
    The 5 axis boards with relay you can get for about £5.Or use the 6 axis that come with the kits (not a fan of them tho)
    A very cheap socket 775 based pc with parallel port with 32bit winXP or 7.
    Mach3.
    This kind of setup might surprise you.

    Then upgrade later.



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    This is the route I'll be taking:
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DE-Ship-1...EAAOxycgVTiW3z
    For x,y
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-EU-FRE...4AAOSw4N1azam~
    For z.


    First upgrade later on will be a smoothstepper then maybe 4th/5th.



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    This is the route I'll be taking:
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DE-Ship-1...EAAOxycgVTiW3z
    For x,y
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-EU-FRE...4AAOSw4N1azam~
    For z.


    First upgrade later on will be a smoothstepper then maybe 4th/5th.
    These will work, but are possibly a little overkill.
    For example, considering, some commercially-sold CNC kits for this mill (G0704) are using 425 oz-in NEMA23's.
    Granted, the kits re using 2:1 reduction for X/Y, and 4:1 for Z (via timing belts), and the larger NEMA34 motors could allow direct-drive with no reduction (so are a benefit in this sense).



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    One important question is if your going to run a 80V or 50V system.

    The larger steppers like 80V or will be rather slow at 50V.

    That is why the 570 oz steppers are so good for most of the smaller mills. At 50V they make good power in the whole range that is needed.

    The standard kit for the PM-25 should be three 570 oz Nema 23 steppers all the way around with three Gecko 251 drives at 50V.

    Next would be using three digital drivers at 4A for the X an Y and 4.5A for the Z. Notice I never ask to run the steppers at the ful 5A. That is because you don't need that much power. The problem with most steppers systems is high speed power. Running a 1200 oz stepper at 50V just sucks. I'm running one at 75V on the PM-940 and really it would be better at 90 or 100 if I could do that.

    Next would be two 570 oz and a Nema 34 640 oz 6.1A for the Z. Again at 50V.

    Next would be two 2NM Nema 23 closed loop steppers for the X and Y and a 3nm Nema 34 for the Z at 50v.

    The closed loop really are nice.

    Next is the Clear Path servos. They are great if you want to spend about $340 per axes after you add the price of the wires.

    youtube videos of the G0704 under the name arizonavideo99


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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    Quote Originally Posted by cr88192 View Post
    These will work, but are possibly a little overkill.
    For example, considering, some commercially-sold CNC kits for this mill (G0704) are using 425 oz-in NEMA23's.
    Granted, the kits re using 2:1 reduction for X/Y, and 4:1 for Z (via timing belts), and the larger NEMA34 motors could allow direct-drive with no reduction (so are a benefit in this sense).
    Forgot to say I'll be going direct drive. Not a fan of using timing belts etc tbh.
    So the torque output will work out similar.
    I'd like to go the closed loop / encoder route but it all depends on if the machine makes money or not.



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    Forgot to say I'll be going direct drive. Not a fan of using timing belts etc tbh.
    So the torque output will work out similar.
    I'd like to go the closed loop / encoder route but it all depends on if the machine makes money or not.
    OK. My case, not made any money yet on any of this. I have mostly been using the machines I have to make some random parts and other things (for building other things).

    I don't know if any of this will turn out to be useful/profitable, or a money sink. ( While I have some of my own machine tools, I haven't been able to get anyone to hire me either as a machinist, software developer, or as a technician. Taking trade-school classes still didn't convince anyone to hire me, nor have I had much luck making money from any of my other projects. Either way, can still write code and make things and similar. )


    FWIW: I have been off experimenting with using a NEMA34 stepper as an alternate lathe spindle motor ( https://www.automationtechnologiesin...34h2160-62-8a/ ), with the KL-11080 driver. This is in addition to the 1 HP AC motor which came with the lathe.

    It works, but has mixed results: The stepper motor runs kinda unpleasantly warm and still doesn't have a particularly large usable RPM range, ...
    I have been able to successfully turn steel with it (*), and is capable of indexing positions, so it is basically sufficient for the purposes I wanted it for, though performance isn't as good as could be hoped (I am left to wonder if I have done it wrong). *: Taking off ~ 0.010 at 200 RPM with an HSS blank I was using as a cutter; could possibly do more with a more proper tool; with an approx 2:1 reduction between the motor and the lathe spindle. In my more recent tests, can spin chuck at ~ 400-500 (~ 800-1000 at the motor shaft), but doesn't have enough torque to turn steel at these speeds (but, the motor does seem able to spin a faster with the spindle+chuck than with no load). (Currently wired BP-parallel and set at 5.5A/ph; could reconsider if a good reason is given; but BP parallel performed better in earlier tests; also trying to balance torque with heat).


    There is a closed loop stepper on the site:
    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...p-stepper-kit/
    But, there wasn't enough information to really be able to determine if it could be used effectively as a lathe spindle motor.
    (As noted, other more appropriate motor kits were generally much more expensive).


    In my case, both my mill and lathe use NEMA23 steppers for general movement.
    The mill is using the 425 oz-in motors (which came with the FlashCut kit); which seem to get good results at ~2.5-2.8A / phase.
    The lathe is using 570 oz-in motors, which seem to want closer to ~ 3.5-4.0A / phase.

    For my rotary table and similar, I am using a 69 oz-in NEMA17 (~ 0.5A/ph).



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    Quote Originally Posted by cr88192 View Post
    OK. My case, not made any money yet on any of this. I have mostly been using the machines I have to make some random parts and other things (for building other things).
    FWIW: I have been off experimenting with using a NEMA34 stepper as an alternate lathe spindle motor ( https://www.automationtechnologiesin...34h2160-62-8a/ ), with the KL-11080 driver. This is in addition to the 1 HP AC motor which came with the lathe.

    It works, but has mixed results: The stepper motor runs kinda unpleasantly warm and still doesn't have a particularly large usable RPM range, ...
    I have been able to successfully turn steel with it (*), and is capable of indexing positions, so it is basically sufficient for the purposes I wanted it for, though performance isn't as good as could be hoped (I am left to wonder if I have done it wrong). *: Taking off ~ 0.010 at 200 RPM with an HSS blank I was using as a cutter; could possibly do more with a more proper tool; with an approx 2:1 reduction between the motor and the lathe spindle. In my more recent tests, can spin chuck at ~ 400-500 (~ 800-1000 at the motor shaft), but doesn't have enough torque to turn steel at these speeds (but, the motor does seem able to spin a faster with the spindle+chuck than with no load). (Currently wired BP-parallel and set at 5.5A/ph; could reconsider if a good reason is given; but BP parallel performed better in earlier tests; also trying to balance torque with heat).
    There is a closed loop stepper on the site:
    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...p-stepper-kit/
    In my case, both my mill and lathe use NEMA23 steppers for general movement.
    The mill is using the 425 oz-in motors (which came with the FlashCut kit); which seem to get good results at ~2.5-2.8A / phase.
    The lathe is using 570 oz-in motors, which seem to want closer to ~ 3.5-4.0A / phase.

    For my rotary table and similar, I am using a 69 oz-in NEMA17 (~ 0.5A/ph).
    I've read that steppers are not good for spindle use.
    I'd like to have a servo system around 1.8kw attached to it but that's miles off yet.
    Something like that should be able to deliver 6-7000rpm at the mill spindle no probs which I'd be plenty happy with.



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    Okay - since I'm going to want to "grow" the system with the least weirdness - Can I start off using one of the linear power supplies, run a pair of 570s, and a big Nema34 for the Z? And then as time passes, and the cash becomes available, just swap out the motors for the Clearpaths?



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    You will be doing most of your cutting at 10 to 20 IPM and get 150 IPM rapids from the steppers. Except for being more quiet and slightly better reliability you gain almost nothing from the CP servos.

    A cant say the CP are not better, they are, in every way. It just wont make your mill work better.

    youtube videos of the G0704 under the name arizonavideo99


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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    I agree the clearpath hardware won’t do much for a G0704 unless you really went nuts with some high quality ball screws/nuts, linear rails and good quality thrust bearings. Just go with The 50V steppers you will be fine. It’s gonna be a rough road if your going to depend on a G0704 to make money. Don’t set your expectations too high and you will be fine.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    IME, I am using 425 oz-in NEMA23 steppers on a G0704, and it basically works.

    Granted, my rapids and feeds have generally been a bit slower than those mentioned above (ex: I have rapids set at 20 IPM).


    Some amount in my case was things like milling 4140 steel with a 1/4" HSS endmill at 1700 RPM, and feeding at around 1.0-1.5 IPM and taking off ~ 0.010" or so (with ~ 0.3 IPM for plunging). Can't go much faster RPM wise (my G0704 seems to "max out" a little early RPM-wise), and feeding much faster generally causes the endmills to break. (It is a vaguely similar situation with 7075 aluminum).

    Can mill a lot faster with softer materials though; and can basically fly through pieces of wood.

    For some other things (like mounting a motor to the rotary table), just sort of ended up mounting stuff using JB weld as the tools seemed unable to do much to the iron it was made from (it ground up the tools I tried using on it without having much effect on the rotary table itself; soon gave up on trying to face or drill it).



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    Quote Originally Posted by bogiestl View Post
    Okay - since I'm going to want to "grow" the system with the least weirdness - Can I start off using one of the linear power supplies, run a pair of 570s, and a big Nema34 for the Z? And then as time passes, and the cash becomes available, just swap out the motors for the Clearpaths?
    I wouldn't have a clue tbh.
    All I'll do is run a big nema34 1600oz/in on the Z using this:
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400W-60V-...y/222238530997
    And 2 nema23 425oz/in from this:
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Switching...YTYu1HML5TgcCg (36V 10A)

    On a X2 I'm running 3 23's 425oz/in using 2 of the 36v power supplies and they've been brill.
    2 on 1 and 1 on the other.

    I will need to get 2 nema 34 1100oz/in for the table on my new one early on but for now I'll just get it going for testing using the 23's I already have.



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    Well, I make fairly small parts, and a few per day would be nice.

    And I'm a bachelor from hell, and am figuring that I can move the 704 into my dining room or laundry room, semi-enclosed, and when I need to do something, chuck up a part, and hit the button. Right now doing everything on the Bridgeport with fixtures, and that gets... tired...

    (St. Louis gets COLD in the winter, and hot and humid in the summer, and my garage, where the lathe and Bridgeport will be staying, is not climate-controlled beyond my kerosene heater)



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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    That's the problem with the 425oz stepper. It has high inductance. So at 50V it performs bad at higher speeds. That is why the 570 oz is the best nema 23 stepper for the job.

    It has 2mh inductance. The 425 is 4mh. Some are lower but most are not.

    The 570oz at the same voltage will be twice as fast as the 425 but it makes more power to begin with.

    Bottom line is the 570 at 100 IPM will make twice the power of a 425oz at 100 IPM.

    So many people buy high inductance stepper and run them at a low voltage and wounder why they are slow. Larger steppers need higher voltages.

    For 50V systems you want to stay under about 3MH. For 80V then 3MH to 6MH tops. Over 6MH you should run 100V.

    youtube videos of the G0704 under the name arizonavideo99


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    Default Re: Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

    Quote Originally Posted by arizonavideo View Post
    That's the problem with the 425oz stepper. It has high inductance. So at 50V it performs bad at higher speeds. That is why the 570 oz is the best nema 23 stepper for the job.

    It has 2mh inductance. The 425 is 4mh. Some are lower but most are not.

    The 570oz at the same voltage will be twice as fast as the 425 but it makes more power to begin with.

    Bottom line is the 570 at 100 IPM will make twice the power of a 425oz at 100 IPM.

    So many people buy high inductance stepper and run them at a low voltage and wounder why they are slow. Larger steppers need higher voltages.

    For 50V systems you want to stay under about 3MH. For 80V then 3MH to 6MH tops. Over 6MH you should run 100V.
    I came across something about the inductance before doing my X2.
    I noticed some of the cheaper kits with the 425oz were only 3A and 6.8 inductance.
    I paid a little more and ended up with 4.2A and 3.8 inductance which sounded a little better.
    Have to watch out for that one.
    I get around half what I think I should (1300mm/min / 51ipm) before stalling using 36V supplies.
    I'm thinking of changing from 36V to 48V power supplies to see if it helps. I do have drivers that can handle up to 50V.
    I've said before though that the gibs and bearings are all really tight so that won't help much either.

    I'm just going to stay budget for a while.
    Just going to stick with Longs & Wantai for now.

    These are the ones I'll be getting for the x,y table of my G0704 clone
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Free-Ship...UAAOSwy6lbkJ1q
    I'll have a spare set which I might put on the X2 Z axis.
    The clone mill itself:
    AMADEAL - AMAT25LV Milling Machine - Long Table - Belt Drive - Brushless Motor (R8)
    Thinking of shaving some material off the pulley in a 4th axis to get it up to 4k rpm.



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Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?

Is Automation Technologies still the go-to source?