Taig vs Omio + random questions

[kskiff7034]

Hey guys,

I'm new to this forum and CNC in general. I've been playing with 3d printers for about a year now and I've currently got 4 machines, one that I built from scratch, one that I've HEAVILY modified, and two stock machines. I understand the basic components of a CNC router/mill, but still recognize they're VERY different machines.

I'm looking at buying my first CNC. I'd primarily be using it to make aluminum parts for different machines. Ideally I'd like to spend 3-4k, but could be swayed to go higher if I got something significant in return. After a bunch of research I've currently got my eye on two machines -- one from Taig and one from Omio CNC.

Taig's website leaves a LOT to be desired so it's hard to research specifics, but I'm looking at their top of the line CNC offering:

5019DSLS CLOSED Loop Optical Encoder Feedback Control CNC Micro Mill with BallScrews on each axis with Nema 23 motor mounts, stepper motors , control system. and MACH3 software. $3495.00

I'm wondering if maybe I'm going overkill though? Is the closed loop going to give me a lot more accuracy? Do you think I'd need that kind of accuracy to mill aluminum parts for 3d printers? I've also read the Taig control system is VERY outdated and VERY overpriced so I'd like to switch to the G540 system everyone suggests. Is there a way to get the above system without the control system and save some money?

The other one I've looked at is the Omio CNC mills, particularly the x8 with the 2.2 kw spindle. Costs quite a bit less, but not sure what I'm sacrificing.


Some additional questions:

Will both of these machines run on 110VAC? I know the omio has an option for 220VAC -- is there any point in having a 220v plug installed to run it at a higher voltage?

I plan to install a sherline 4th axis regardless of what I go with. I've seen mentions of people doing with a Taig, but what about the Omio?

Any other information people care to supply would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure I'll have more questions along the way. As mentioned, if there's another machine that's a bit more then PLEASE let me know. I could be swayed to go as high as ~$6k if it's going to get me something awesome.

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[ger21]

I'd probably go with the OMIO x8, just because of it's size. But it's not a mill,so you are somewhat comparing apples and oranges. The Taig will probably let you take deeper cuts, and maybe give a better finish. But the OMIO should let you run faster, taking lighter cuts, which levels the field some what.

Since the OMIO has a high speed spindle, you can cut wood and plastics at much higher speeds than you could on a Taig.

Is the closed loop going to give me a lot more accuracy?

No, it won't give you any more accuracy.

Will both of these machines run on 110VAC? I know the omio has an option for 220VAC -- is there any point in having a 220v plug installed to run it at a higher voltage?

You definitely want to use 240V with the OMIO. Those 2.2Kw spindles do not run as well on 120V.

[kskiff7034]

After some more research I realized the DSLS 3000 is the controller. I didn't realize originally Taig had different controller options. is the DSLS 3000 still worse than the G540 option?

I don't have much intention to cut wood to be honest. At least not with this machine. I may still grabe a Shapeoko 3 sometime down the road for bigger things in lighter materials. I should also mention that this is all a hobby so speed isnt a huge concern. I don't have deadlines or anything to meet.

I'm definitely leaning more towards the Taig since the benefits ger21 mentioned aren't something I'm concerned about and it required 220VAC for optimal performance.

I am a little confused on the open vs closed loop. I was under the impression closed loop gave feedback to the controller about the servo/stepper movement and would then allow for corrections translating to better accuracy. Is that not the case? If not, what are the benefits of closed loop? Would an open loop ball screw Taig machine be acceptable for milling aluminum parts? If so, I'm thinking my best bet is to go with this:

5019CR-ER Micro Mill with BallScrews on each axis and converted to CNC ready with Nema 23 motor mounts, and upgraded 1/4 horse power motor . Does not include stepper motors or control system.

I can grab steppers and the G540 separately. Unless the DSLS controller is better?

Ugh so many options and such limited cash flow.

[ianagos]

I feel like with your budget you could do a conversion on a pm-25 or g0704 or a mini mill if you don’t need that big of and area.

[kskiff7034]

I hadn't really considered conversions since this is my first CNC machine, but on second thought I guess it's definitely an option. As mentioned I've built 3d printers from scratch and the components are some what similar. Early in my research I saw someone say that the various conversion kits always had problems so I kind of wrote them off, but I think that post was from like 2012 so maybe they've gotten better?

Would a conversion of one of those machines yield a significantly better product than the Taig?

l find I keep coming back to the electrical concern as well. Is 220VAC just something I'll need to contend with for a machine like this?

[ianagos]

Well yes sometimes conversion kits have issues. If you do plan to go that route I recommend 3D modeling stuff also if you need help I have large machines and I’m willing to cut some parts if you need for your machine for cheap. You will need 240v for anything with any kind of capability.

[ger21]

Would a conversion of one of those machines yield a significantly better product than the Taig?

Yes, because a G0704 is far more machine than a Taig. It probably weighs 10x more.
A Taig is really a very lightweight hobby machine. There are Yahoo and Facebook groups dedicated to upgrading Taigs to make them more capable.

I am a little confused on the open vs closed loop. I was under the impression closed loop gave feedback to the controller about the servo/stepper movement and would then allow for corrections translating to better accuracy. Is that not the case? If not, what are the benefits of closed loop? Would an open loop ball screw Taig machine be acceptable for milling aluminum parts?

Most Closed loop controls (Like the DSLS 3000) close the loop at the stepper drive, not the control. The controller never knows what the motors are doing, and can not make corrections.
The main benefit of the closed loop control is that it can be configure to stop the machine if a motor loses position, potentially saving parts from being damaged.
An open loop machine should never lose position if configured properly.

Looking at the specs, they use 200 oz motors on that machine. A G540 can drive much larger motors, potentially giving you much better performance.

[kskiff7034]

Maaaaan I was all set on the Taig and now I'm doubting it.

I like the conversion idea because I'd be able to do it in pieces. I could buy the PM-25 (Seems like the better machine compared to the G0704?) right now and then slowly upgrade/convert it. The conversion kits look to be ~$700 or so. Another ~$700 for steppers/G540. With a 4th axis and fogbuster I'm looking at like 4500 or so. That's actually around the same price as the 5019 Closed Loop Taig with a 4th axis/fogu buster, maybe even a little less. Am I missing something? Or is it just because it'd be a lot of work involved instead of having a out of the box machine?

I don't mind a project at all and actually would kind of prefer it, but the end goal has to be reasonably attainable. It's obviously possible, but I'm not an engineer and this is my first CNC so I'm a little concerned about the difficulty.

It looks like the PM-25 uses 120 VAC -- would the conversion boost that requirement?

[ger21]

A G540 is probably underpowered for a larger machine conversion. You'd want individual drives like Gecko G201X's or Leadshine EM806's,and larger motors than a G540 can drive.

[ianagos]

That seems about right although it may cost you a bit more than that due to other stuff. I personally think you’ll just be much better off. Also before you buy new check Craigslist you’d be surprised at what you may find. I’m not sure the pm machine takes 120v but if it does you will probably need the control on a separate 120v circuit.

[kskiff7034]

Okay I think this is what I'm going to do. It looks fun, challenging, and in my budget. I'm going to order the mill tonight and will slowly grab the additional stuff.

Do you guys think steppers are good enough or should I just go straight to servo's?

[ianagos]

If you are gonna go for it I’d say servos they aren’t much more expensive than the good steppers. Make sure you do some research on the machine and if you can get it with a belt drive I recommend you do that.

[kskiff7034]

In the item description it says, "Belt Drive Design, For Smoother, Quieter Running" -- is that what you mean? Did previous models not have a belt drive or something?

https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-25mv/

I did some more research on stepper vs servo after asking. This site seems to suggest that servos are a waste of time with added difficulty and no real benefit:

https://torchmate.com/white-papers/S...lligent-Motors

I'd be interested to know why you seem to prefer servos?

My last real concern is the heat. I'd llike to keep this in my garage, but I live in Florida and it can get quite hot during the summer. Do I need to consider climate control or something? I've got plenty of Bostik to combat rust, but not sure about the machine. I know the stepper drivers on my 3d printers are okay up to like 50c, but I have no experience with servos.

[ianagos]

Yea that’s what I meant. Anybody who says servos aren’t worth it are at a real low level. They are more accurate firstly because instead of 200 steps and maybe some micro stepping I can easily have a 4000 count encoder on my servo. Besides that they don’t drop off so much torque at the high rpm end.

For me I run real cnc machines I have 2 Fadal mills and I’m looking at getting a bigger one. There is a reason there are not steppers on them.

Now I’m not saying steppers can’t be good I’m just saying servos are much better. At your level some steppers would probably work fine.

[robertk925]

I have both an older Taig (leadscrews/CNC'd) and a newer PM-25MV that I CNC'd using arizonavideo99's ballscrew kit and a G540/UCCNC combo. Both are great machines, but it really depends on what materials, how big, and how fast you want to machine.

I am running 570oz NEMA23 steppers on the PM-25MV and it runs really well. I would start with steppers and move to servos if you find that you need the flatter torque performance and quiet running.

As for heat, the steppers should be fine, but you will want to make sure you have good cooling on the G540. I have an older revision that really benefits from a fan blowing on it, but not sure if newer revisions have better thermal properties.

[kskiff7034]

Does Arizonavide99 still sell the kits? I tried e-mailing an address I found and kept getting bounced replies. If not, is there another kit that's as highly revered?

And Robert, my main use is to make smaller parts for 3d printers. They wouldn't be larger than a few inches in any direction. The image below would be the peak of complexity.

https://imgur.com/Ypa3VxL

I also might want to dabble with making PCB's eventually.

[ianagos]

Wow that part is pretty complex and without some radi in certain locations almost impossible it make on a mill.

If your work area is only a few inches then maybe the TAIG would work for you but it is not going to be cutting much metal at once.

[kskiff7034]

That's honestly the most complex part I could think of and realistically is better off being 3d printer due to weight. I was just using it as an example. The vast majority would be more along the lines of the image below:

https://imgur.com/a/ZWLujaT

What is radi?

I don't see many (None actually) videos of PM-25 conversions with a 4th axis on Youtube. Are they just not practical for the lower end machines or..?

Speed isn't really a concern, but pricing the fully upgraded Taig vs the PM-25 they come out around the same so no reason not to I guess.

The more I think about it, I'm really just kind of inventing a need to give me an excuse to get one of these. If I'm being honest with myself, the vast majority of the parts I'm talking about are probably better off being printed in PC from one of my printers. The REAL use for this is to, well, play with. I'd like to learn the technology and everything. With that said, I don't want to buy junk because some day I'd like to maybe get into this field professionally. It's a far off pipe dream because I make really good money doing what I do now, but who knows what the future may bring.

[ianagos]

If you ever want to get into it professionally that machine is not the way. For reference I just bought a Fadal vmc15 for 3k it needs some work and cleaning but that would be something to really get you going my other Fadal a VMC15XT is much nicer and I paid 4K

[robertk925]

ianogos meant to spell it "radii", the plural of radius. Your second image has large radii where the vertical walls hit the bottom plate. All machined parts need radii in the direction parallel to the spindle due to the endmill geometry, but I recognize that those parts are screenshots from Thingiverse so optimized for 3D printing and not machining.

Yes, if your parts only a few inches then a Taig should work, although if you are doing 4th axis work you need to carefully look at the Z height to make sure you have clearance for a 4th axis as well as the part rotating. I have a 4th axis on my Taig but I start to run out of Z height pretty quickly.

If you have the space in your shop for it I would go for a PM-25MV or G0704. I am not sure who is making kits right now, I thought Dave (arizonavideo99) was still making them. Maybe you can try to PM him here on CNCzone? Or try https://www.automationtechnologiesin...0-pm-25mv-kit/

I haven't seen many 4th axis videos on the PM-25MV/G0704 either but I assume it wouldn't be too difficult. Much less limited in space than a Taig.