7 Axis Swiss Mill-Turn (DIY)

[691175002]

I'm not too concerned about acetal in the design, box ways provide damping so they are very well suited to an aluminum machine. You also have to remember that a ball-screw has only point contact whereas an acetal nut has area contact, so the loss of rigidity might not be as bad as it seems at first glance. Either way, I wouldn't plan on heavy cutting with a 5 axis machine.

Feature creep is dangerous, I generally prefer it when a Kickstarter design gets simpler rather than more complicated.

How many people are on the SwissMak team?

[Generic Default]

Yeah even with 30 taper machines running mass production (Speedios, Robodrills) people are advised not to take really heavy cuts, but rather take faster, lighter ones. I know Frank Mari at Maritool routinely recommends people use 1/2 inch and smaller endmills with the shortest gauge length possible.

I don't consider the mechanical stuff on the SwissMak to be feature creep given how similar all the components are. For me, feature creep would be promising software or an "app" with the machine. The mechanical stuff is almost trivial with the right production machinery.

Team seems like the wrong word for now. So far there have been a handful of people involved. I'll list their occupations, but keep in mind since this project hasn't actually gotten funded yet, these people did it out of interest rather than hourly or salaried pay. No names here.

1) Funds guy. Generously donated 2,000 dollars after seeing the first prototype and having seen my prior work from 5 years before. This guy is/was also the head of the engineering department in a MAJOR government aerospace facility. Dude put a lot of stuff in orbit.
2) Business advisor. Expert in supply chain management, accelerated semiconductor/fab progress in the 90's. His experience is one of the primary reasons why I'm not outsourcing this stuff to China either.
3) EE department chairman at a fairly prestigious university.
4) Millwright/independent machine repair guy. This guy gave some legit advice and insight on the problems/solutions that manufacturers face in the machining industry. He has an aerospace grade shop in his own basement and he builds F1 cars as a hobby.
5) Two machinists, one an oldschool tool maker kind and the other a dude who worked in oil and gas making drill rig equipment.
6) Unpaid hype man/men, people who have seen this project from early on and have the personal interest to promote it and share it around.
7) Oskar and the guys developing ODrive. This is it's own company, I want to be clear about that part. But ODrive is the future of machines like this, and I'll be working closely with them.
8) Me. I'm the one designing and building everything so far.
9+) Future people as the business develops and grows.

[dharmic]

Let’s be real, Fusion can turn a fourth or fifth axis and then continue machining and it can do fourth axis wrapping. That doesn’t make it true five axis CAM, not in the ultimate sense of that operation anyway, and as far as I can tell you would want that for this machine.

What. Right there on the menu are the standard three continuous five axis strategies you'll get on any decent CAM package.

[skrubol]

Let’s be real, Fusion can turn a fourth or fifth axis and then continue machining and it can do fourth axis wrapping. That doesn’t make it true five axis CAM, not in the ultimate sense of that operation anyway, and as far as I can tell you would want that for this machine.

I think you're referring to 3+2 axis strategies? Fusion has had those for a few years (axis wrapping actually came fairly late,) but does now have some 5-axis toolpaths. I haven't used any of them (I've only got a 3-axis mill with a crappy rotary,) but it's got swarf, multi-axis contour and multi-axis flow.
The above is only in Fusion Ultimate I believe, which is the $1200/yr product the last I knew.
Also you need to remember that probably 90+% of 5-axis machining is 3+2 machining. Many 5-axis parts have no simultaneous 4/5 axis cuts.

[Amalgamated]

Good evening,

I have been considering purchasing a Tormach 1100 and a 15L, but am very intrigued with this machine.

If you had the Mill-Turn, how can you do conventional 3 axis work? Remove the tailstock and bolt down a vice?

I'm going to be watching closely and just may spring for the Mill-Turn.

Travis

[jgwentworth96]

Good evening,

I have been considering purchasing a Tormach 1100 and a 15L, but am very intrigued with this machine.

If you had the Mill-Turn, how can you do conventional 3 axis work? Remove the tailstock and bolt down a vice?

I'm going to be watching closely and just may spring for the Mill-Turn.

Travis

It wont be quite that simple as the only part of the machine that moves in the x-axis is the head stock so unless you come up with a way to mount a vice to it that won't work. Mill-turns are meant to work from round stock and are not particularly well suited to more traditional work holding methods. You can make a dovetail fixture to bolt on to the A-axis which would be awesome to see. You should look up the Mazak Integrex for examples of how mill-turns work.

[dharmic]

I had the same question because, by doing that and allowing manual control via the double ended steppers with knobs on 'em, I could then use this machine to replace my little SEIG mill and lathe.

The X leadscrew runs the whole length of the bed. Looking at various options at the moment of adding a lead nut to the tailstock plate and switching between the tail stock and a T-section plate (per the 3 axis reward on the kickstarter) but I'm confident that it will happen that I can run it in either configuration by the time it arrives at my door.

[Amalgamated]

It wont be quite that simple as the only part of the machine that moves in the x-axis is the head stock so unless you come up with a way to mount a vice to it that won't work. Mill-turns are meant to work from round stock and are not particularly well suited to more traditional work holding methods. You can make a dovetail fixture to bolt on to the A-axis which would be awesome to see. You should look up the Mazak Integrex for examples of how mill-turns work.

I thought I saw somewhere that the head and hailstorm was synchronized because they have to stay together in Swiss mode. It would seem that if the headstock could be disengaged, a vice could be bolted to the hailstorm slide.

I think I also saw mention of
F putting a 5 axis workholder on the spindle.

[Generic Default]

Travis,

Since this is a sliding headstock machine, the tailstock must follow at a constant distance when a part is between centers (or gripped by the subspindle and main spindle at the same time). The simplest way to do this is by having a quick disconnect adjustable "pull bar" that links the main headstock and the tailstock plate. Another way is to have a separate, independent motor driving the tailstock. In that case the Headstock and Tailstock could maintain constant distance by sending step commands to both motors at the same time. They could also be controlled separately, as is the case on most modern Swiss CNC lathes.

If you only plan on doing 3 axis work, or if you do enough 3 axis work to justify a dedicated machine, we will also be building a simpler 3 axis mill with ODrive servos on all axes. This one is intended specifically for vise work.

The comments about a 5 axis vise (dovetail) are spot on. This would be an important accessory, several companies sell them but in the $500 and up range.


One thing I promise is that I won't be shipping junk machines that disappoint anyone. Better to put in extra stuff that was never shown in the Kickstarter than to over promise and under deliver. Given how many tons of 6061 we'll be plowing through, adding a few pounds of extras is no big deal.

[dharmic]

I'm nervous about the mortgage I'm going to need for the shipping costs to Oz by the time I've finished asking for extra goodies

[Vinnito1]

Look what pop'ed up on engineering.com

[691175002]

The numbers are plausible at the moment, but I worry that you will spend six months working full time and discover that you've paid your suppliers, the machine lease, and rent; but have made nothing for yourself and now have to come up with $3,500 a month to keep the shop open.

Material costs are probably going to be higher than the test unit. You will have more volume, but the final design is more complicated and I suspect that outsouring the spindles will eat those savings and then some.

If you include even a modest hourly wage you are probably looking at $1000-1500 of CNC time and $500 of assembly time per machine; and are doing inventory, purchasing, and design for free.

Lets say Kickstarter deposits 125k into your account to deliver 30 machines. Consertative estimates might be 75k of materials, 15k for rent/utilities, 20k for machine depreciation; leaving 10k for six months of labor. Are you going to need an accountant? A laywer? Insurance?

No need to confirm or deny any of these numbers, but its something to think about.

[jebc4]

Travis, Since this is a sliding headstock machine, the tailstock must follow at a constant distance when a part is between centers (or gripped by the subspindle and main spindle at the same time). The simplest way to do this is by having a quick disconnect adjustable "pull bar" that links the main headstock and the tailstock plate. Another way is to have a separate, independent motor driving the tailstock. In that case the Headstock and Tailstock could maintain constant distance by sending step commands to both motors at the same time. They could also be controlled separately, as is the case on most modern Swiss CNC lathes. If you only plan on doing 3 axis work, or if you do enough 3 axis work to justify a dedicated machine, we will also be building a simpler 3 axis mill with ODrive servos on all axes. This one is intended specifically for vise work.

Could you just extend the bottom plate of the headstock/boxway system and use that as box way for the tailstock to ride on and lock to? It would simplify locking the tail stock (no extra motor), protect the Z leadscrew, and give a place to bolt a fixture tooling plate like (https://saundersmachineworks.com/col..._fixture_plate). That would be one mean machine...

[1125lbs]

very nice work!

[Krispee]

Fusion 360 is free for hobyists, startups and $1200/yr for version with 5-axis for companies making $100k+/yr.

That's odd because when I go to their website I don't see where they say it's free for hobbyists.

[dharmic]

It’s a little surprising they don’t make more of a song and dance about it.

Get the 30 day evaluation. At the end of that you get the option of an ultimate licence for under $100k turnover and hobbyists, price nil.

[Krispee]

It’s a little surprising they don’t make more of a song and dance about it.

Get the 30 day evaluation. At the end of that you get the option of an ultimate licence for under $100k turnover and hobbyists, price nil.

Ah right, so that's how it works, I was looking for ages for the free version. Doh! LOL.

[SkookumAsFrig]

Amazing build, but its slightly to disappointing to see a few people get anal about micron accuracy when this machine isnt designed to do so. Its aimed at the maker market not aerospace engineering, and to that end its more capable then any alternative currently in its price range.

[Generic Default]

Yeah, for me the disappointing part is seeing people who refuse to believe it can cut metal even after watching the video. The video clearly shows it cutting delrin, 2 aluminum alloys, brass, and cast iron. There are no chatter marks on the parts. One guy on a subreddit page was ranting that it was completely impossible, saying it was a scam, ect.

I also think it's cringy that people assume common hobbyist level machine building techniques are the only viable ones. Particularly with ballscrews and linear guides. The more experienced professional machinists on Practical Machinist have had tons of forum debates and discussions about this. The general consensus among industrial users is that boxway machines are slower but noticeably more rigid with better vibration damping. Machine tool builders used to make only boxway machines, then the cheaper ones started using ball-type linears in the 1980s. Those machines had a reputation of being fast but chattery, so the better builders switched to roller type linear ways more recently. The premium machines are still built with boxways; this alone should convince people that the cheap ball linear guides are not superior.

[ianagos]

Yeah, for me the disappointing part is seeing people who refuse to believe it can cut metal even after watching the video. The video clearly shows it cutting delrin, 2 aluminum alloys, brass, and cast iron. There are no chatter marks on the parts. One guy on a subreddit page was ranting that it was completely impossible, saying it was a scam, ect.

I also think it's cringy that people assume common hobbyist level machine building techniques are the only viable ones. Particularly with ballscrews and linear guides. The more experienced professional machinists on Practical Machinist have had tons of forum debates and discussions about this. The general consensus among industrial users is that boxway machines are slower but noticeably more rigid with better vibration damping. Machine tool builders used to make only boxway machines, then the cheaper ones started using ball-type linears in the 1980s. Those machines had a reputation of being fast but chattery, so the better builders switched to roller type linear ways more recently. The premium machines are still built with boxways; this alone should convince people that the cheap ball linear guides are not superior.

It’s funny that you state about it cutting metals then name some of the easiest metals to cut and only one ferrous metal(cast iron) that is also easy to cut. I also think you are really confused as to why box way machines are so much better. The are better because they are heavier and stiffer than most linear rail machines this it the opposite. Also cast iron has much better vibration dampening abilities than aluminum. Also if ballscrews weren’t the best why are the majority of machine tool manufacturers using them? It definitely ain’t cuz they are cheap because the high quality ones are quite expensive. Now saying this I think the project is awesome and for the price it’s great but you are making this sound like it’s better than a real industrial machine. It’s not that it there’s not if and or buts about it. This is a hobby machine that for a low price can let’s us get a taste of what can be done.

So please don’t spread your bs that linear rails and ballscrews are garbage and hobby level components that’s just nonsense.

The videos I saw were machines with linear ways and ballscrews making this machine very very few videos of this thing actually cutting. I get chatter on my fadal every now and then and it weighs quite a bit more yet none of the cuts on this machine ever produce chatter?????