Yet Another Sieg X2 [D] CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HELP


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Thread: Yet Another Sieg X2 [D] CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HELP

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    Default Yet Another Sieg X2 [D] CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HELP

    I know what your thinking .. after reading through this forum and the misc sites on the web now for over 6 months before finally pulling the trigger .. Geez not another newb with dreams of CNC with an X2 ... I know I know.

    Im creating this post to try and bring forth [ after said reading until my eyes bled ] some newer data and links - as several I've tried to follow thru with were over 10 yrs OLD! , and links to parts products tips tricks and misc websites were a cavern of hellish 404 Page Not Founds. and I will admit - a bit of selfishly wanting a central place to document my trials and tribs and hopefully get some much needed de-newb-ifying assistance.

    Quick shout of acknowledgement out to this forums members - man - what an amazing gathering of skills and knowledge - fully blown away ... Hoss Machine / yantra3d / djbird3 / SCzEngGroup and on and on and on ... Thank you - sincerely ...

    It all started from ... that fateful day I discovered I could make and own and shoot very accurately, my very own 80% completed firearm .. and that I could - even in the gun grabbing state of Commie Fornia, put a hunk of alum into a machine in a jig and push a few buttons - and watch what a gaggle of really smart dudes before me created ... churn out a Modern Sport Rifle lower ready for assembly. Amaze-ballz. I was hooked. Firearms stuff is actually a very minor aspect of what I want to use this thing for - but I digress.

    My first post here is a bit of info on me, background, hobbies interests - and of course what seems like my new OCD Addiction. Maybe my first milled parts should be for a safe to hide my wallet ? Too late.

    I'm a california'n - in So Cal .. originally from Texas. Been here in So Cal since 1972. Im just over a half century old, and all this Machine stuff is brand new to me. Worked as a kid in a woodshop making custom cabinets and counter tops - but Ive been mainly a desk jockey pushing papers on the daily now for over 30 years. Aint scared to put workboots on tho - as I just got done building a custom home for a family member in Texas [ where do I find the time ] Have 2 adult kids [early 20's ] and 2 more in high school ... well alot of engineering types in here who prolly give ZERO u know whats about all that - but yeah - did it anyways. I personally like to build relationships - on and offline with like minded folks - so I shared some Personal TMI.

    Anyhow ... I drove up to Pasadena from Orange County last week and grabbed up a Sieg X2D and visited The Little Machine Shop in person .. and ... its pretty little - lol. The Machine I got - AND their shop. Super cool folks tho - very helpful. Answered a bag o queries about Tormach Tooling System TTS for me ...

    A. This thing was surprisingly heavy to me - lol B. was rather clean for what I expected - read about covered in Goo - it was super oily tho. C. Came apart real easy [ always the easy part ]






    and so it starts ... Planned Upgrades and CNC components

    1. Automation Technology Inc - 570 oz stepper motors / KL 5056 Stepper drivers / Powersupply [ Kit ]
    2. C11G BOB with Ethernet Smoothstepper
    3. Ballscrews - yet to be determined - looking at Linearmotion guy on ebay as im not sure I want to spend $150 per BallNut elsewhere !!!
    4. Spindle Bearings Upgrade - sourced thru Locate Ball Bearings.com - 7007B-2RS-TVP - FAG & 7206B-2RSR-TVP - FAG
    5. New Spindle Motor - going Nordic Trac - just need to select one of 5 options - will be posting for help on this in a bit
    6. KBMM-125 to run the motor and connect to Mach3 [ Galco.com ] - https://www.galco.com/buy/KB-Electronics/KBMM-125
    7. Mist or coolant - may go coolent flood system due to not wanting compressor always rockin
    8. designing an enclosure for my unique and limited workspace
    9. Will likely be doing several of Hoss Machines plethora of killer upgrades [ head spacer ] / Y Travel increase / ATS
    10. Most definitely - standardizing on Tormachs TTS

    million more things i think I could list but ... Thats all for now

    - Steve [ SoCal ]

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    Default Im no sparky - so electrical guys/gals help a brother out - Which MOTOR for Upgrade?

    Ok so I read every single post in the fateful SangMutan BLDC / Kelig thread from back in the day - and frankly - all the techno terms and "stuff" there were pretty far over this newbs head. That said, I want to upgrade the X2D's spindle motor AND be able to control it with Mach 3/4. The issue for me is most of this "tricity" jargon and electrical engineering stuff is a tad overwhelming for me... but I have confidence if I take it slow one bite at a time I can eat this elephent - I know there is much to be learned in this area over all when creating this cnc conversion and wiring all the needed components.

    Some specs for what I'd like and some are needs...

    1. Ive only currently got single phase residential power - my brother is a general contractor and we could readily push 220 on seperate circuit into garage if "really" needed - id prefer not
    2. I want to cut alum 7075 without much trouble - pretty conservative DOC's and step overs and feed rates - Im not trying to impress youtubers with my baddassery just yet
    3. I do want to be able to cut steel - even if I need to do it gingerly
    4. One of my main focal points will be cutting titanium - small parts - mainly finishing up 2-3mm sheet projects that have been plasma cut already. countershink / trim / shallow pockets kinda stuff
    5. Id like to keep it around $350-400 max [ motor / controller ]
    6. Pretty much decided on a Treadmill motor as the upgrade
    7. Ive sourced and am ready to pull the trigger on upgraded AC bearings for the spindle to deal with the desired RPM increases
    8. Id prefer a treadmill motor that gets to 6000 RPM if I can - but will likely run at more conservative speeds
    9. Id like to be able to TAP / Thread
    10. Mach 3 control mandatory.
    11. control will be a KBMM-125 with the reuqired mods and heat sink [ .006 ohm resistor and 25A fuses ] / heatsink. [ purchased already ]
    12. Ive purchased a C11G + Ethernet SmootherStepper BOB/Motion control setup

    Based upon Hoss' many videos - like these two - I think Ive narrowed it down to one of 5 potential motors. 4 can be had by making a phone call - the other is a NEW ebay special $110.00 Details follow.


    Im hoping that some one here much more informed [ aka smarter ] can advise which of the 4-5 motors depicted here - or otherwise - would be my best option based upon the above 12 parameters ...

    videos Im referring to: Credits - Hoss/HossMachine






    #1 Treadmill Motor M-208012 - $39.95




    SPECIFICATIONS


    Power 2.0 HP
    Voltage 130 VDC
    Amperage 14.3 Amps
    Speed 5650 RPM (Nameplate)
    6175 RPM @ 130 VDC, No Load
    Rotation Reversible
    Enclosure OFC
    Duty Treadmill
    Mount Two 7mm Holes in Housing on 3" Centers
    Shaft 17mm dia. x 48mm overall length w/ 1/2"-13 x 14mm long LH threaded end
    Rear Shaft 16mm dia. x 26mm overall length
    Size 10-3/8" x 6-3/8" O.D.
    Shpg. 35 lbs.



    #2 Treadmill Motor F-237595 - $45.95




    SPECIFICATIONS


    Power 2.25 HP (1678 W)
    Voltage 130 VDC
    Amperage 12.9 Amps
    RPM 5135 RPM @ 130 VDC, No Load
    Rotation Reversible
    Enclosure OFC
    Duty Treadmill
    Mount Two 7mm Holes in Housing on 2-1/2" Centers
    Shaft 17mm dia. x 44mm overall length w/ 1/2"-13 x 14mm long LH threaded end
    Size 9-3/4" x 6-3/8" O.D.
    Shpg. 23 lbs.



    #3 - Treadmill Motor F-286340 $49.95





    SPECIFICATIONS


    Power 2.8 HP (2089 W)
    Voltage 130 VDC
    Amperage 16.1 Amps
    RPM 4135 RPM @ 130 VDC, No Load
    Rotation Reversible
    Enclosure OFC
    Duty Treadmill
    Mount Two 7mm Holes in Housing on 3" Centers
    Shaft 17mm dia. x 43.5mm overall length, Stepped down to 14mm dia. with 5mm keyway, End tapped 10-32
    Size 11" x 6-5/8" O.D.
    Shpg. 30 lbs.




    #4 - Treadmill Motor M-234976 - $77.95




    SPECIFICATIONS


    Power 3.5 HP (2611 W)
    Voltage 150 VDC
    Amperage 20.1 Amps
    Speed 4500 RPM @ 150 VDC, No Load
    Rotation Reversible
    Enclosure OFC
    Duty Treadmill
    Mount Two 7mm Holes in Housing on 3" Centers
    Shaft 17mm dia. x 35mm overall length, Tapers from 17mm to 16mm in 24mm, End tapped 3/8"-16
    Size 12-1/2" x 6-3/4" O.D.
    Shpg. 34 lbs.




    #5 - Treadmill Motor M-314571 - $99 + $10 shipping - NEW - Ebay This one looks to be the closest to the ones Hoss demonstrates in his video - well they LOOK the closest








    Part number: M-314571
    Model C3364B4035M
    2.8 HP at 130 VDC
    2.6 HP continuous duty at 110 VDC/1939 watts
    Measures 11" from end to end


    Im just really unsure these will get to the RPM and torque ranges that the unit in Hoss' videos did/will - appreciate your insight suggestions and knowledge shares.

    Thanks to any and all that advise

    - Steve in SoCal

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    Default Re: Yet Another Sieg X2 [D] CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HEL

    Funny, I'm at about the same process right now with my LMS 3990 conversion, and here in Anaheim. Doing things differently with automation technologies 380oz-in steppers, g540, ESS and CNCFusion ball screw kit and of course Mach3.

    System is running, I'm just time-starved to sit down and actually cut chips without being afraid of crashing since i know nothing about g code as of yet.



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    Default Re: Yet Another Sieg X2 [D] CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HEL

    well then youre miles ahead of me brother - glad to see a local fellow Californian dropping by here. Did u upgrade the motor / bearings - any of that?

    Ive been reading CNCFusion is very challenging ot get "stuff" from - maybe thats old data ? Did u use their full kit or just the ballscrews?



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    Default Sieg X2D Spindle Bearings Gears removal - Progress update

    The saga continues ... Sieg X2D Spindle Bearings Gears removal

    As part of the Belt drive upgrade - wanted the noisy plastic and metal gears OUT of the head of the mill [ weight reduction baby! :-) ] And because I really love to dismantle things _ took it all apart and needed to remove the stock bearings which I have read - in the past - have been sub par for running RPM above 4,000. I definately plan to run this R8 spindle faster than 2500 - hoping to get 6,000 or so with a treadmill motor/controller upgrade. I am also hoping I can help some folks by detailing my pics and discussing some odd happenings in my most recent adventure.

    I started by doing hrs of reading here and on Youtube and of course many of the posts here and Hoss' fine suggestions - lead me to VXB and other sites for the Angular Contact [ AC ] bearings. I ended up using some VXB bearings. I elected for the low end road for now ... as I'm new and didnt know how this process would go ... Id rather try something the first time with $45 worth of upgraded bearings vs. $450 worth.

    Bearings I chose:

    Sieg X2 R8 Spindle Version - - Upper Bearing


    7206 Nachi Angular Contact Bearing 30x62x16 C3 Japan Bearings


    Sieg X2 R8 Spindle Version - Lower Bearing


    7007B Angular Contact Bearing 35x62x14

    After reading threads wtching vids and mostly looking at the source for all this madness:

    https://www.littlemachineshop.com/In...ndle%20Kit.pdf

    I embarked on gathering up some stuff at the local home depot ... Got it home and ran into my first odd issue ... LMS instructions advise to get 12" of 1/2" threaded rod and bits n bobs for the project ... So I did. However; and Im likely gunna get crucified mercillessly here for this ... I couldnt for the life of me figure out how to remove this blasted infernal Draw Bar "Spacer". The breakout diagram in my mills manual is cryptic - it just says "spacer" - I went onto the LMS site and looked under Sieg X2 US R8 model for a breakout diagram and it correctly identified it for me as Draw Bar Spacer ... the black metal ring inside the top of the spindle in this picture.



    So Im feeling really dumb because I am thinking this item must stay in the spindle ? Still not sure if it MUST - but with it in there 1/2" threaded rod I bought does NOT fit into this process.



    No Go Bro ...


    So now all those parts from Home depot and the reading and planning etc - out the door. In my quest to remove said "spacer" - I was faced with Brute Force and Ignorance + Heat or Ingenuity + Heat - I was afraid of my typical brute force and Ignorance methods on my new "toy" - So I searched the crevices of my dome for some Ingenuity - came up empty actually and just went with copious amounts of HEAT ... This is not a pic of me heating the Spacer - but whilst taking action of HEAT and hoping for inspiration of some ingenuity it hit me ... I use heat all the time to remove Nitromethane Scale model bearings from Aluminum engine blocks with heat and utilize the differences in thermal properties of alum vs. steel to easily extract the bearings with very little force. So since these stock bearings were throw away at this point and replacements were on the way and $16-20 each - I threw caution to the wind and got that puppy HOT. I focused on the cast iron head unit mainly. Wanted to get that head hot as possible and have the bearing cooler than the heads bearing race... if possible... Iron head to expand - steel bearing expand less = bearing removed from cast iron race ... It worked - sorta ...


    Lower Bearing 95% removed


    Note : I had to do the following - after I got it hot ... about 180* - 190* F according to my Exergen ... I put the NUT on the top of the threaded end of the spindle to protect any miscue I might make with my rubber mallot, and I used one of the PVC gizmos 1 1/2" pipe plug for threads jobbie [ pics of it here ]



    Note the positioning of the Head unit with the dove tails AND the spindle gear mount portion + the ways of the base - with a towel - this provided a deep enough strong shaft to support all this madness and let the spindle and bearings go down to extract - I was struggling for a means by which to support all this - maybe it helps you too ...



    To Be Continued maxxed images per post

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    Default X2 Spindle and bearings removal continued - Part 2

    X2 Spindle and bearings removal continued - Part 2

    Here's a pic of the Nut on the top of the Spindle I mentioned earlier [ last post - no more pics allowed ]



    Being unsure of myself and this whole process - I didnt want to thwack the spindle very hard with a rubber mallot - but after watching some of the other vids where dudes where benting 1/2" threaded rod and crushing PVS pipes and smashing electrical boxen .. and their stuff was "ok" I got the heat back up to 180* F and gave it two [2] more good raps with the mallet in my makeshift jig stand and ... viola - She Gawwwn!



    Post extraction temps - about 2 mins after ...



    So my newb thinking was - we get these little nitro motors up to 240* F and run em balls out for 1 hr straight and they live and hold pretty tight tolerances etc - I figured this cast iron mill head and spindle could handle it too ... Hope Im right. I use this to get the 1/8th scale engines up to temps [ As an alternative possibly if you cant get a heat gun - $18 at walmart - Oster Hot Plate - it GETS HOT man ] The hot plate was my next try if the heat gun didnt get it hot enough ...



    Next ... the Upper Bearing. I decided to use the same methodology on it as I was rather satisfied with the results of the heating method. I did however; need a means by which to apply downward extraction force across the outer race - because by now I figured I could keep these bearings and not scrap them - so I wanted to remove at least this one using force across the outer race as much as I could. Again - Imma prolly get harangued for such blasphemy - but I just went for it - damn ... it was 1:20 a.m. so what the hell right ? So I used this little guy ..



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    Default Re: Yet Another Sieg X2 [D] CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HEL

    So this is the amazing device by which I applied a few hrs worht of pent up malice to the 180* F bearing and the internal gear "force diffuser" . 1/2" threaded lag bolt with a 1/2" drive socket of adequate diameter, and a couple Home depot washers and double nutted under the washers to snug up the contraption. Force applied with rubber mallet. 2 Good Whacks with the mallet .. .Bearing came right out.



    Both Bearings out .. this one [ upper ] none the worse for wear really ...


    For those more experienced machinists and metalworkers amongst us who may be feeling a moment of mercy for us struggling newbs using a low rent ghetto Chinesium toy mill ... care to share thoughts on the Heat Extraction method? If its not screwing too much stuff up - it sure is a LOT simpler than all the other methods Ive read so far. [ Yes I know this isnt brilliant new science or anything, but I sure as hell wish Id seen this first before doing all the other crap I read about ]


    Also - in regards to low rent ghetto Chinesium mills - sadly came across a kinda bothersome Fit n Finish issue ... The X2D I got had a absurd little plastic shield on the face of the mills head. You can barely see it here at the left of the picture ... OMG ... so lame.



    They drilled and tapped two sizeable holes for that damn thing and in the process - tapped thru into the bearing race!!! Glad Im not mounting $150-250 bearings into this contraption - LOL [ I would never do that ]



    Being new to ALL of this and eager to take action - I didnt notice this - it was there before my eyes ...

    So the current status is : bearings out. Draw Bar Spacer "still stuck in the spindle" - Lower bearing still pressed ON to the spindle.

    So this poses continuing issues for me Im not sure how to PRESS on the new lower AC bearing with the drawbar spacer stuck in the top & and I need to sort out a bearing removal strategy to get this old lower bearing off the spindle currently. Heard of folks using emory cloth to polish the upper race and using heat to make the new AC bearing a better fit as to not be pressed in so Pre Load can be applied more accurately on re-install. Also read where guys chucked up the spindle in their lathes and polished the spindles bearing race with fine sanpaper [ I have 2000 grit I use to polish engine crankshafts perhaps it will work? ]



    Will report my solutions in here when I get it sorted or if you know of a solution - drop a brother a knowledge bomb please ! TIA


    - Steve in SoCal

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    Default Re: Yet Another Sieg X2 [D] CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HEL

    Alrighty ... not that anyone will care, but was delayed in posting new info on the progress as I had a 12 day trip out of town, got back the day before Thxgiving, and ... USPS/UPS and fedex all happened whilst I was out of town and all sorts of goodies and gadgets arrived.

    Kelinginc.net Stuff - 570oz stepper motor kit 5056 Digital Drivers couple of power supplies C10 BoB - C11GR BoB which I will add a ESS to.

    GALCO - KBMM-125 with the Horspower ohm resisters and some 25A fuses for the Treadmill motor drive/power control.

    Stuff from ebay showed up as well ... Dykem and the RPM tester NEIKO - neat lil toy.





    This whole event caused my brain to go into a research frenzy on the now needed control box enclosure and components layout. Found another Youtuber for some guidance - since im not getting any feedback here. Was really hoping for an assist on the treadmill motor selection in my prior post - but I just went ahead and grabbed a couple off Ebay since no comments - pretty sure they will be fine. will test em out for rpms etc with the KBMM-125 and see how she goes. Im ALL IN on this enclosure now - so the physical and mechanical aspect of the Ways Lapping and bearing change out are back seat for the time being.

    A helpful friend off facebook is milling the X/Y cnc mounting plates and misc. so i can get CNC on at least X/Y - then hopefully i can get going on the rest of the stuff I need ot make meeeself. Got my hands full with the electronics so far - LOL

    Here's the youtube build series Im using to model my control box after. Its serious OVERKILL for the X2 .. but all this is really... its all just learning and a step towards a G0704/PM727/B20 next.

    CNC4XR7 -

    [ this gent appears to work in the machine/process control industry and his box and component set looks drastically different than most of the homebrew box vids Ive seen - so I went with it ]

    still learning a ton about all this - great stuff so far,

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    Default Re: Yet Another Sieg X2 [D] CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HEL

    After watching CNC4XR7's video series on his CNC controller box and the components - I went out and sourced the parts from various online and local resources. To my dismay his video added another $250 to the control box build ... it hurt so good ... Should be fun. That said it caused me to learn an even larger amount of stuff. I was enlighted about DIN rails, Dinkle Power Distribution blocks, Contactors, Holding Circuits, and so much more.

    I got most all the indiv components dimensions from online and mocked them up AFTER I sketch up how and where I actually wanted the box to be located in relation to the mill - so as to best orient it - and the connections and thusly, the components vs. Just cramming in all the bits and bobs and hoping to make it all work.

    KBMM-125 - space hog and surface of the sun heat generator



    This damn KBMM-125 with Heatsink is freakin huge and a space hog. If this thing needs a heatsink that big cuz it gets THAT hot - it likely should not be in this box! Thing looks like it will melt yer face off - sheesh. I may sketch up an enclosure just for it and have it 3d printed and hang it off the PC case I have on its way. That said ... the PC case is looking far too small now - especially since Id like to have room for 4th access, AND ... control some type of coolant setup on this machine. Coolant requires more wiring plus a 24v power source/supply and a Solid State Relay of 25A. the DIN rail mounted 24v Power source/supply is a Fat Boy too but that and the 12v and 5v DIN railed power supplies are still smaller than a tri-power supply


    Without the KBMM-125 in the mix




    My sketchy Sketch



    This layout below is with the KBMM mounted flat on the mount plate without the 24v PWR Supply - but left in the SSR25A. Gunna try and mount the BoB [ C11Gr ] and the ESS vertically like a typical NIC / Serial Port card in a PC ... may pose a wireing challenge but will save a ton of space ... may have to grab up some DIN rail mount brackets to do so if the case i got cant accommodate.


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Yet Another Sieg X2 [D]  CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HELP-20171127_074749-jpg   Yet Another Sieg X2 [D]  CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HELP-20171127_072210-jpg   Yet Another Sieg X2 [D]  CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HELP-20171127_072201-jpg   Yet Another Sieg X2 [D]  CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HELP-20171127_074226-jpg  



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    Default Re: Yet Another Sieg X2 [D] CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HEL

    fwiw, i appreciate sharing the pics and thought process.



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    Default Re: Yet Another Sieg X2 [D] CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HEL

    Quote Originally Posted by tyson77 View Post
    fwiw, i appreciate sharing the pics and thought process.

    Thanks bud :-) Its a large busy forum - and this X2 cnc conversion build thing has been done to death already. Most folks here are likely bored to tears with it. Only reason Im doing it is because most of the 100's of therads and posts and videos I watched are pretty dated - and in excess of 70% of the links out to products or other posts and solutions to problems - resulted in 404 Page not founds. Hoping my stuff will be a little more "up to date" from 2017 on forward.

    Cheers



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    Default Re: Yet Another Sieg X2 [D] CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HEL

    Quote Originally Posted by MiniSoCalCNC View Post

    So the current status is : bearings out. Draw Bar Spacer "still stuck in the spindle" - Lower bearing still pressed ON to the spindle.

    So this poses continuing issues for me Im not sure how to PRESS on the new lower AC bearing with the drawbar spacer stuck in the top & and I need to sort out a bearing removal strategy to get this old lower bearing off the spindle currently.

    - Steve in SoCal
    As far as removing and replacing the bearings on the spindle - don't worry about the "draw bar spacer". It doesn't get in the way at all when doing the bearings and can stay there forever as far as I can tell - its effectively part of the spindle and just centers teh draw bar to keep it from whipping.
    For removing the lower bearing - only remove it if you are replacing it. Otherwise there is a good chance you will damage it removing it. You obviously need to remove the key that is in the way and then its simply pressing the bearing off with a good sized press and a fixture (block with appropriate hole or tube with an ID that is very close to the spindle OD. The 12" length of 1/2" threaded rod can be used for the pressing operation. have the washers sit on the spindle top (by the draw bar spacer) and add a nut. At the bottom using the previously mentioned tube or block and then use a thick bar across with a hole in it and tighten the nuts to press the bearing off. See my quick drawing (minus the spindle).
    Mike

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Yet Another Sieg X2 [D]  CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HELP-press-sketch-v1-jpg  


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Yet Another Sieg X2 [D]  CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HELP

Yet Another Sieg X2 [D]  CNC Conversion and Upgrade Thread - Total Newb Needs HELP