benchtop precision

[handlewanker]

The guy's probably out in his shop working the machine so doesn't have time to keep reading up on the emails......what would you rather he did.....play on a computer and browse emails and let the business go or work on the orders he probably has that fill all his time?.....yours is probably # 100 further down in the queue.
Ian.

[taiwanluthiers]

Please understand also, customers (who do not always know BTP's reputation) do put in a non trivial amount of money into this. The belt drive kit is probably cheap, BTP also performs other services like milling the column for linear rails, etc. that is likely to cost more. Then we'd have to wait a while after we paid our money for a product, so timely communication is very helpful to assuage customer's fears.

I understand the guy may be a little short on time but I still think that timely communication is very important for the success of any business. If he uses CNC to make most the part (I do not think he manually makes everything, it would take a lot of time with no upside) he can adjust his workflow to allow him time to answer emails and questions, or have someone else (like his wife) to handle the communication side of things.

I've done jobs for people and I always strive to finish ahead of time, and if I can't I always make sure I let customers know why, and when to expect things.

[gman88188]

The guy's probably out in his shop working the machine so doesn't have time to keep reading up on the emails......what would you rather he did.....play on a computer and browse emails and let the business go or work on the orders he probably has that fill all his time?.....yours is probably # 100 further down in the queue.
Ian.

Being an apologizist for non-performance is not helpful. I have been in the service and construction business for thirty years. One does not make loyal customers by making commitments and not following through, and if those commitments cannot be made at least communicate, this is something BTP does not do. There is trend in this hobby of taking money and not delivering on time, I have noticed it over and over again with folks who probably could not stay in business over the long haul. In my industry, it called liquidated damages and if don't make your commitments its is a costly lesson. I apologize for being stickler to SOP for most businesses throughout the civilized world, perhaps you do things differently in Australia. BTP's bad reputation goes back to 2015, during that time, he should be able to correct, but it appears the answer is no. Not learning from the past mistakes and non- communicating means you should not be in business altogether. As for "playing" being on the computer he could concoct a standard sorry I am late email and send out automatically to customers. Per the previous blog comments he doesn't communicate. BLUF: I took a chance despite previous bad feedback and got burned, but at least I had my sunblock on. Sometimes is the best news is bad news, at least one would know to lower expectations.

[handlewanker]

LOL.....you can always go somewhere else.........that'll take the pressure off a bit., sometimes in a rarefied field you just gotta have patience.......I waited 2 years to get my optimised CNC mill .....from China, long story......but the wait was worth every cent of it.
Ian.

[taiwanluthiers]

Please listen...

Waiting 2 years isn't the issue. It's communications and expectations.

Customers are going to have technical questions and when emails go unanswered that raises concern, especially when non trivial amount of money is involved.

When paying customers have questions, you do have an obligation to provide an answer, or if you can't answer right away say that you will answer later because you are busy at the moment or something. When you don't answer customers may even think you've gone out of business and may do a dispute for that reason.

Ordering from China comes with it a bit of a wait because of import regulations and shipping time. We're not ordering stuff from China but it takes but 2 minutes to answer questions. If you can't do it, then get someone else who you trust to do it. You gotta keep your customers in the loop or else they'll just go elsewhere and dispute the charges.

[handlewanker]

Yeah....great expectations etc......Well, I never doubted the supplier I dealt with, even if he was far away in China and had problems, but I never harassed him over the 2 years he took to get organised, even if he did not communicate too readily (not at all even).

Luckily, I had the forum to keep the hope level up and running when all others were crashing and burning and gnashing their dentures in frustration.

Sometimes, when you just must have that particular product, the time taken is not important or the lack of a few words etc......money up front too.

Eventually.......in the very fullness of time, you'll get lucky, and when that happens all this'll just be a bad dream......if you brass him off too much and he refunds your money and tells you to GTFOOH..........what'll you do next.....I don't think anyone else is doing the same work he does, but I'm sure anyone could if they wanted to.
Ian.

[taiwanluthiers]

Well honestly dealing with import or export is frustrating because there's a lot of customs and stuff. That's why we buy from Grizzly and Precision Matthews, since they deal with all the stuff and deliver us a machine that works.

I kinda learned my lesson with Grizzly however and I'm buying my next lathe from Precision Matthews. I should have bought their version of G0704 from the get go (it comes with belt drive standard). By the way, he does answer technical questions promptly and was actually more than patient with me on weird financing options... kudos for him for putting up with me. Basically I'm spending over 3000 dollars on a PM1228 lathe and I needed some financing options since it is a pretty significant outlay for me. He was really patient with me and even worked with Paypal in dealing with it. In the end I found an option that both of us are happy with. I'm taking delivery around November since I want to wait for this Texas heat to go away before moving a 500 pound machine up to the third floor.

I may try machining a larger pulley for my belt drive kit so I can increase the gear ratio to allow me to run larger HSS end mills.

[handlewanker]

Hi, one thing I came to realise early on and that is anything the dealers are selling is almost double what it cost the seller......mark up, customs, and taxes etc.

Someone has to pay for the showroom and staff, but you can take delivery on the same day you saw it if you have the transport etc.

Being in the showroom and not just in the catalogue for back ordering where you can twiddle all the knobs and ask daft questions to a salesman who probably doesn't know how it works anyway.does have some advantages for peace of mind......I was in it for at the end 10 grand....so despite all the doomwatchers saying the seller was living it up somewhere at my expense, all turned out right.

BTW......is your workshop really on the 3 rd floor?.....how are you going to get it up to that level?
Ian.

[taiwanluthiers]

Take the machine apart and get it up piece by piece with the help of REALLY strong men... that's all I can think of.

I can buy DRO units from China because they're not big heavy stuff that costs a lot to ship. It makes almost no sense buying that direct unless you got enough volume to fill several containers. LTL shipment is very expensive, so expensive that it actually costs less to get an entire container than it is to get a quarter of it. So for one machine it's expensive but if you buy say 100-1000 machines then the cost per machine is very low. That's how people like Grizzly do it. It's not worth it for your average person unless they're ordering several machine shop worth of equipment. When I moved from Taiwan I wanted to move some equipment and I was quoted something like 10,000 dollars to move a few machine and stuff. I decided it made more sense to sell the stuff and buy it here in the states. As I didn't really have connections with anyone the equipment I could get in Taiwan is actually inferior to the stuff I can get here. You see in Taiwan you don't just call up Grizzly, Precision Matthews, Dro Pros, Woodcraft (for woodworking machines), MSC, etc. and order the machines you want. Nobody in Taiwan does machining or woodworking for a hobby so none of the equivalent retailers exist. You got Home Depot type stores that are actually glorified furniture store. It meant unless I really know the wholesalers, you can't get anything Grizzly or other "machine pimps" sell and are stuck with the few that sells very low quality machines.

The weird thing about Taiwan though, is that it's actually easier to buy metalworking/machine shop machines than it is to buy woodworking machines. But gunsmithing is also a capital crime (with possible maximum penalty of death) in Taiwan so at the time I had little use for a mill/lathe...

[handlewanker]

Hi....best of luck......my machine came fully assembled in it's enclosure in a large wooden packing case.....they fork lifted it onto my trailer at the shipping depot and I only had to do a lift with an engine crane with ropes to get it off the trailer and into the garage then onto a steel bench.

If Trump has his way you won't be seeing many container loads of machinery coming your way while he presides, but I can't see any big business picking up the production in the short time he'll reign, so after that it'll be back to business as usual.
Ian.

[taiwanluthiers]

I'm surprised people don't have shops in the basement. Disassembly becomes necessary if you have to move it up or down stairs. Engine hoist won't work on stairs.

You're going to have to do alignment on machines anytime you move them so having to take them apart shouldn't be an issue.

[109jb]

I have moved machines up and down stairs many times using a come-a-long, a 4x4 and a homemade plywood sled. The sled goes under the machine in question and slides up/down the stairs. The 4x4 goes across a doorway opening to attach the come-a-long to, and the come-a-long connects the 2 to raise or lower the machine up/down the stairs. I have moved machines weighing up to about 1000 pounds this way without problem. If the stairs are carpeted it works best as the sled could scratch the stair nose if the stairs are finished wood.

[taiwanluthiers]

What's wrong with disassembly? It makes things easier and not need elaborate sleds

[handlewanker]

Hi....you guys are lucky as it seems basements are a common feature in US homes.......that's not a feature in OZ as we either build with a wood floor on stumps or on a concrete slab,

Many times, if the house is on a slope, the garage is under the house so you get more use of the whole house footprint on the building block.......on flat land the water table would make a basement impractical.

BTW........on the Taiwan topic.....a year or so back I bought one of those small dividing heads that go by the model no. BS-1 etc..........the dealers had 2 models, one by Toolmaster from China and the other by Vertek from Taiwan.

The Toolmaster model was $100 cheaper than the Vertek so I bought the Toolmaster one.

When I got it home I opened it up to see what made it cheaper.......well, long story short.....it was crap.......so I took it back and exchanged it for the Vertek model..... at no extra cost.
Ian.

[taiwanluthiers]

Actually, it depends on the part of the country.

In the central part of the US basements are common because it's where you can put all sorts of utility things (washing machine, water heaters, etc.) but also provides a shelter against stuff like tornadoes. I have never seen them in Texas however and most of the utility stuff is in the garage. In my apartment the water heater is in a locked cabinet that only maintenance has access to (I think it's so someone doesn't mess with it and blow up the building).

I ordered a Shars 8 inch 4 jaw chuck. I hope they are good but most of the Shars tool has been decent. I figure extreme precision is not necessary with 4 jaw chucks since you can dial out runout easily (this is also why people don't like 3 jaw chucks)

[109jb]

What's wrong with disassembly? It makes things easier and not need elaborate sleds

It depends on the machine, stair geometry, and personal preference. There is nothing wrong with disassembly, but disassembly can range from simple to not so simple to a royal PITA.. A small bench mill is easy to disassemble, but a lathe not so much. What exactly is elaborate about a piece of plywood for a sled? Also, the method I mentioned is very simple. I would bet I could make my homemade skid (simply cut a piece of plywood to appropriate size) and have a machine in my basement before you could have the machine disassembled. I remembered since my last post that I put a 1300 pound gun/document safe in my basement last year using the method described, and there is nothing except the door that can be disassembled. From top of stairs to the basement took about 10 minutes. That one required a 4 wheel furniture dolly at the top and bottom of the stairs and no skid at all for sliding it down the stairs.

[taiwanluthiers]

Lathes can be disassembled too, though it may take time.

Fabricating sleds and inclines isn't always practical especially in an apartment... it would require construction space and other tools (such as a table saw) to erect a temporary structure and then time to dismantle that as well. Then figuring out where to put all that wood once they're not needed (or dispose of them and buy more should the machine need moving again).

Also skids have an element of danger. If the rope breaks the 1000 pound machine will slide down and break whatever's at the bottom (as well as the machine). That's hard to explain to any landlord. Disassembling the machine on the other hand allows one or two people to carry each piece and it also allows you to inspect it for any defect or damage. All machines can be disassembled, unless there's some serious miracle at work that allows the machine to be made of one piece.

Consulting the exploded diagram of the machine beforehand helps a lot... it allows you to see what the major pieces that can be safely and easily disassembled. For a lathe that's the cross slide, tailstock, motor, and possibly headstock. One guy said that once the headstock comes off they can never be put back together without messing up alignment but that makes no sense. Machine pieces can move and be knocked during moving, if it can't be realigned later on then the machine is worthless. I read from the exploded diagram of most lathes that the headstock sits on the V rail of the bed, so no way they can lose alignment since they are a part of the same plane.

I wouldn't be taking the gearbox off of course, but Southbend does have instructions on disassembling a lathe for moving.

http://bluechipmachineshop.com/bc_bl...for-Moving.pdf

It's worth considering especially for any machine weighting more than 500 pounds. It would also be worth considering for say a full size Bridgeport that weights 4000lbs. It's easier to move several 400lb pieces than all of 4000lb at once!

[109jb]

I'm not arguing with you. If you prefer to disassemble then so be it. As I said,

It depends on the machine, stair geometry, and personal preference. There is nothing wrong with disassembly, but disassembly can range from simple to not so simple to a royal PITA..

I was simply posting another option for readers of this thread.

If you want to discuss the element of danger, I would argue that being at the top of the stairs operating a come-a-long is a lot less dangerous that carrying pieces of a machine that could weigh 100's of pounds each by hand. One point is that I never said anything about ropes. a come-a-long is generally a cable or chain device, but even if using a rope, and the rope breaks, it falls down the stairs with nobody under it.

[handlewanker]

Wow, rented property.......and on the third floor........that is definitely a disassembly option.....one day you might want to move house so tearing it to bits and transporting it is not a big drama once you know how.

I would also have to hope the floor can take the concentrated 500 lb loading....along with the fridge stove and washing machine(s) etc.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

I'm not arguing with you. If you prefer to disassemble then so be it. As I said,



I was simply posting another option for readers of this thread.

If you want to discuss the element of danger, I would argue that being at the top of the stairs operating a come-a-long is a lot less dangerous that carrying pieces of a machine that could weigh 100's of pounds each by hand. One point is that I never said anything about ropes. a come-a-long is generally a cable or chain device, but even if using a rope, and the rope breaks, it falls down the stairs with nobody under it.

Nahh.....a come-along doesn't have enough length to go up a 20 foot stair length....it'is a short lift device, either a chain or wire rope type.

A 1 ton chain block would work better in that case, if it was an option, as they can work in both vertical and horizontal modes and have long lifting lengths.....BTDT.
Ian.