Looking to setup a CNC practice machine shop

[Hilmi]

Hi,

I am interested in learning the basics of machining with particular emphasis on CNC machining. I repeat, I am interested in the basics, so before you respond to me that it took you a collage degree and 10,000 hours of practice to learn, understand that I am not looking into becoming a master machinist overnight. I am looking to buy a setup with CNC capabilities from the get go, I am not interested in buying manual and then upgrading, it is just not the area of interest I have. I am also looking specifically at bench top machines. If I need a bigger machine later, I will buy a bigger machine later in my particular situation, that actually makes more financial sense than going for a big machine first. I am aiming to buy a mill that can cut threads too and if it can't cut threads then I will supplement it with a lathe. So I am looking for advice on which machines to buy that meet the following criteria:

1. Is available for sale as a complete kit, including work holding, cutters etc...
2. Needs minimal tinkering to get going
3. works on modern computers (OS, connection interface, etc...)
4. Works with Autodesk Fusion 360, already learning that now
5. Can cut tough metals I might pickup from the scrap yard, even if slowly
6. Natively supports 220V to 240V 50Hz power used in my country
7. The main aim of the machine is to learn and make hobby parts, so it's OK if it can't handle large volume production.

Any suggestions? I am intrigued by the Sherline ultimate machine shop packages, but I am not sure if their CNC solution can handle threads. I don't mind that they don't use standard size cutters, since they seem to have a very comprehensive set of cutters available for sale on their own site. I'm not too keen on the Linux based system, I will have enough things to learn as it is without having to add a new operating system and I have no interest in converting. I am happy with windows, I have an extensive pre-existing windows ecosystem and don't see anything good coming from adding further complexity of adding another operating system. If the CNC control system has support for current computer technology, I would be really thrilled. I find it very frustrating having to source obsolete technologies just to get one device to work. So, support for current versions of Windows, support for USB etc... all make the solution more attractive for me

I look forward to seeing what suggestions you all come up with

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[Tkamsker]

if you country is europe look at our machines they are well described at the education section https://www.thojomech.com/ausbildung avail in english and german you can configure the machine to your needs but i am not hundred percent clear what you. mean by cutting threads and if substitute by lathe which we also have but i need to prepare all data in 2 languages so that is why there is only 1 so far in the lathe section


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[Hilmi]

I am located in the Middle East and I am setting up a home workshop, your machine looks great and with a 2.3 Kw spindle it looks powerful, but it is also too big for my needs. I really only need a small bench-top machine for now. There are a few reasons I want to stick to a bench top machine, first of all, I don't have enough space for a larger machine. I also don't want to pay huge shipping charges on a machine, a big machine will cost a lot to ship. Also, bigger machines have special power requirements and will not run off my home electrical wiring.

[Tkamsker]

That is Clear but Shipping Cost You will have Anway we have also a smaller Mill which is tabletop Or to Mount on the machine and You can Cnc it yourself as we really produce in Austria we can be flexible-


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[CS900]

I was in your position about 8 years ago. I ended up retrofitting a Taig mill and learned a LOT. It's a great machine to learn on ans will do everything you wanted, including thread milling.

They have plug and play versions of the taig here: MicroMill DSLS 3000

A few notes about your requirments:

1) not many mill manufacturers package tooling with them. You typically can get work holding solutions, but very rare to find one that includes tools as a kit.
4) The compatibility of the CAM package with your control is a function of the post processor which is part of your CAM package. Mach3 will work with most Fanuc posts, but you still may need to tweak the post to get it to work 100% with your set-up.
6) Not sure if the Taig linked above is compatible with 220, but I'm sure if you contacted them they could throw in a different power supply, or rewire the current one.
7) the taig should be perfect. It's a bit beefier that the sherline and handles steel just fine. It's also small enough so when you make a mistake its not as big a deal as crashing something bigger.

Carter Tools also offers a CNC Taig: The Taig Milling Machine, Manual and CNC

[Hilmi]

Hi,

Thanks for the response CS900. Microproto actually responded to my inquiry about 220V and they said they can wire the machine to work for 220V power. I will contact Carter tools and see if they can do the same thing as they seem to also sell starter kits.

Any recommendations on what accessories to get from the get go? The reason I ask is that buying most of what I need from the beginning will save me a lot on shipping.

[CS900]

a good 3" vice, er16 collet set, some spare spindle belts, a machinist square, a center finder, parallel set.

[hanermo]

Calibrate your expectations.
Sherline/taig are very good for what they do.

Borderline for steel beyond tiny pieces.
Tiny pieces aka watches engine models etc can be fine.

Learning on tiny is fine.
The smallest real 0.5 Hp machine is the old original Birdgeport, M head.

The real, actual working power on small machines in steel will be == 100W.

A spindle motor of 2 kW is useless, if the frame cannot hold the spindle well enough.
2 kW == 2000 kg, in the real world, in steel.
Alu, about 1/3.

For comparison, the best benchtop lathe in the world, is the schaublin.
Its a tiny 9x lathe, size of small desk.
Cast iron, 200 kg.

They went bankrupt, at least twice, and are being made again.
A new one is 54.000$. Manual.

A good, very common, mill for steel is a keycutter.
See anyone who makes keys.
Maybe 40 kg, in a 2" x 0.5" work envelope.

Average density of all machines is similar vs work envelope (1:3 variation, with the very high $$$ machines at 2-3x the mass)..

I ship everything here, and its never a concern.
Everything else, yes.

Cheapest real machines for hard materials aka steel are Tormach at 10k and up.
Many others exist, for much more money.
Smaller (industrial) ones exist, for much more money.

I would recommend anything for learning, with not much concern for actual (steel) work being done.
Sherline/Taig have good resale value.

A good "real" machine will be 10x more productive in steel than a sherline etc.
It will also mass 10x more for the work envelope.
For learning, this will make zero difference.

Small and good are not commercially useful in general.
Where they are the specialist apps make them very expensive.
140.000€ iirc for tiny 5 axis mill/turn.
E.g. All (90%+) teeth implants are made on them.

[awerby]

It sounds like you're a good candidate for benchtop machinery. For learning, it can be a lot less painful on a machine that won't kill itself (or you) when you make a small mistake. Both Taig and Sherline make excellent small metal-working machines here in the USA. As people here have already told you, they won't compete with machines that cost many times their price and are many times their size in making large parts, but they can do quite well at making small ones. We're distributors for both manufacturers, and are one of the few willing to ship outside the USA.

As to your questions:

Is available for sale as a complete kit, including work holding, cutters etc...

[Sherline has a more complete line of accessories; I source hold-down kits for the Taig mills from another company, but neither is going to provide all the cutters you're likely to need.]

Needs minimal tinkering to get going

[Both are pretty good in this regard, but you will have more issues getting the Taig machines adapted to your electricity; the Sherline motors are DC variable-speed and run off a transformer that will accept 220v 50hz. The Taig spindle motor is an induction motor that really wants 60hz; you'd probably be better off sourcing a spindle motor locally and adapting it.]

works on modern computers (OS, connection interface, etc...)

[Both still want a parallel port connection; you can get around that by using a USB adapter like this one: UC100 USB MOTION CONTROLLER. Modern operating systems aren't a problem, but if you're using Mach3 and a parallel port, it won't work on the 64-bit versions.]

Works with Autodesk Fusion 360, already learning that now

[As was mentioned, the CAM program will need a post-processor that's compatible.]

Can cut tough metals I might pickup from the scrap yard, even if slowly

[While both machines are capable of cutting materials up to mild steel in hardness, be careful about metals from the scrap yard. Beryllium copper, for example, can be highly toxic, some aluminum will be so soft as to stick to your endmills, while bedframes and other steel products can be hard enough to dull most cutters. It's better to know what you're dealing with, even if it costs a little more.]

Natively supports 220V to 240V 50Hz power used in my country

[The Sherline is better in this regard, as I mentioned above. You can use a transformer to run the Taig controller, but the spindle motor will have issues at that frequency.]

The main aim of the machine is to learn and make hobby parts, so it's OK if it can't handle large volume production.

[Good.]

I am intrigued by the Sherline ultimate machine shop packages, but I am not sure if their CNC solution can handle threads.

[Yes, both Sherline and Taig sell CNC lathes capable of threading. But the Sherline lathe uses gears for that which must be changed for each type of thread, while the Taig CNC mill does it electronically.]

I don't mind that they don't use standard size cutters, since they seem to have a very comprehensive set of cutters available for sale on their own site.

[Being US-based, both manufacturers offer Imperial tooling options, but their products are not restricted to using them. You can buy all-metric versions of all the Sherline tools, and you can get metric ER-16 collets for the Taig machines. You really don't want to be limited to buying tooling from a foreign country.]

I'm not too keen on the Linux based system, I will have enough things to learn as it is without having to add a new operating system and I have no interest in converting. I am happy with windows.

[Taig CNC machines come with Mach3, which works in Windows; Sherline offers Linux with theirs, but they can also be run with Mach3; you'd just need to buy it and set it up with the Sherline pin-out. ]

[Hilmi]

How would you rate the Sherline thread cutting solution vs. the Taig solution? I will be making lots of threaded adapters for my telescope, so this is a part I will be utilizing a lot.

As to adapting the Sherline CNC solution to work with Mach 3/4 Would there be any issues running it off that USB controller you linked to on a 64bit PC?

Also, the general impression I got from my research is that the Taig mills/Lathes are far more capable (power and rigidity) vs. the Sherline solutions, Did I get that right? I was really leaning to towards Taig, but after you brought up the issue of the motor compatibility with out power supply, that really put me off them.

I am trying to do my home work right. When you live almost 16 hours flight time from your supplier, you don't want to receive your box and find you are missing that little widget that will prevent you from getting started, Then you have to wait another 6 to 8 weeks for the postman to deliver that widget. (Yes, our postal service is solidly in the 3rd world category when it comes to delivery speeds)

[Tkamsker]

where do you live ?


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[Hilmi]

TKamsker,

I live in Oman. I looked at your website and could not find the smaller machine you are referring to that will work using household electricity. All the machines I saw posted were much bigger than what I had in mind

Maybe if you could link me to the specific small mill you were referring to

[Tkamsker]

Hi,
you are right my text is misleading thank you for that input
if you look at
https://www.thojomech.com/Basicpacka...Stepper-Pinole


this is the basic machine and yes the motor is an 400V 2,3 kw motor but it is driven by an VFD which uses normal 220V 16 Ampere which i refer to household.
we have made an description for the basic machine intended for schools https://www.thojomech.com/precision-...-machine-tmf12

so the machine is basically an machine comparable with an tormach 1100 but not made in China the factory is in Austria
i don't know how the delivery to oman works but as long there are no restrictions like it was for the iran no problem.
All components are from eruope means motor, ball bearings , control
exception is like the ITX pc which comes with the machine and the Toshiba VFD are made in asia
the spindle encoder is made in USA .

[awerby]

How would you rate the Sherline thread cutting solution vs. the Taig solution? I will be making lots of threaded adapters for my telescope, so this is a part I will be utilizing a lot.

[Both work, but it's easier to switch pitches electronically than by changing out the gears. On the other hand, Taig wants more money for their solution.]

As to adapting the Sherline CNC solution to work with Mach 3/4 Would there be any issues running it off that USB controller you linked to on a 64bit PC?

[That should work; the only problem with 64-bit is that it doesn't support the parallel port the same way.]

Also, the general impression I got from my research is that the Taig mills/Lathes are far more capable (power and rigidity) vs. the Sherline solutions, Did I get that right? I was really leaning to towards Taig, but after you brought up the issue of the motor compatibility with out power supply, that really put me off them.

[The Taig mills are somewhat more rigid, but the power is roughly equivalent. Sherline uses a 90v DC motor with a variable speed controller, nominally 1/3 hp but with better low-end torque than a standard fixed-speed motor. Taig uses a 1/4 hp 3400 RPM continuous-duty motor which trades speed for torque through the pulley clusters. But as I mentioned, you'll have trouble driving it on your current. ]

I am trying to do my home work right. When you live almost 16 hours flight time from your supplier, you don't want to receive your box and find you are missing that little widget that will prevent you from getting started, Then you have to wait another 6 to 8 weeks for the postman to deliver that widget. (Yes, our postal service is solidly in the 3rd world category when it comes to delivery speeds)

[That's one reason you don't want to depend on importing your cutting tools. Taig hasn't designed their products for use in foreign countries; some adaptation will be required to make them work there. Sherline tools get the edge in this respect; their machines can be plugged in most, if not all of the world's household electricity outlets.]

[victorofga]

the problem with your wishing...

a small lathe can cost only 500... but retrofitting to cnc might cost 2000 or even more..
because theres not only you hook a control with motors, but you have issue to fitting ballscrews into..
with acme screws you have always backlash issue..

small mill indeed available, but a mill is cast iron and heavy.... anything you choose will not be under 4-5K till it gets your desk..

what today you thinking about your needs, tomorrow you going to proof yourself, you underestimated everything..

youre not the first "" I just want a small something""
when you say some metal ... that makes pricing up 10 times..

to learning, and makin little parts, even of aluminum.. go with a simple Chinese router.. a 3020 cost about 500 ... or so..

then youre ready to learn, then you can find out your really need.. after you invest 4-5K or more then hard to justify ""what can I do next""

you saying you want to cut threads... that is the one what not for beginning..

right now you telling us you buy a bicycle, and without you see before any bicycle , tomorrow you going to bicycling..
I can tell you, your chances are very little..

[Hilmi]

the problem with your wishing...

a small lathe can cost only 500... but retrofitting to cnc might cost 2000 or even more..
because theres not only you hook a control with motors, but you have issue to fitting ballscrews into..
with acme screws you have always backlash issue..

small mill indeed available, but a mill is cast iron and heavy.... anything you choose will not be under 4-5K till it gets your desk..

what today you thinking about your needs, tomorrow you going to proof yourself, you underestimated everything..

youre not the first "" I just want a small something""
when you say some metal ... that makes pricing up 10 times..

to learning, and makin little parts, even of aluminum.. go with a simple Chinese router.. a 3020 cost about 500 ... or so..

then youre ready to learn, then you can find out your really need.. after you invest 4-5K or more then hard to justify ""what can I do next""

you saying you want to cut threads... that is the one what not for beginning..

right now you telling us you buy a bicycle, and without you see before any bicycle , tomorrow you going to bicycling..
I can tell you, your chances are very little..

Victor, Part of your statement is true, but not all. I am now learning from personal budget. I live on a salary and I have two choices, I learn on a small machine or I don't pursue the activity at all. What I can afford is a small mill and lather, so that is what I am getting. If I decide to make a bigger things or things that require a more powerful machine, it is probably because I have decided to turn this into a business. If that happens, I have a budget of $250,000 which means shipping cost $4K to $5K would be an insignificant cost at that point of time. Also, from personal experience, it does not cost that much to ship. You can probably get a 250Kg package shipped via courier for $3000. I always ship things from USA and Europe.

A router will not make the parts I want to make, I am a hobbyist astronomer and I want to use the home machine shop to fabricate custom dovetails, custom camera mounts and custom part mounts, these things make more sense on a mill and lathe than they do on a router. Yes I am looking to learn, but I want to learn while making parts which I will actually use. I have done my research from other people who make similar things to what I want to make and they all agree that a router is not suitable for this kind of task.