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Thread: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

  1. #49
    Gold Member john-100's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

    to reverse the DC motor connected to a KB120 speed control you will have to replicate this type of manual switch
    with a 2 pole relay to reverse the motor connections

    note -
    the interlock on the manual 3 position switch (Forward, Off , Reverse ) forces you to stop and the restart in the other direction

    Flood Coolant... how to wire it?-c3-lathe-wiring-diagram-b-jpg

    I guess you could use relay 1 on the C11G board to switch the power on and off to the KB120 board

    and relay 2 or pin16 to control a 2 pole relay to reverse the DC supply to the motor

    provided you can delay the change in polarity possibly in the G code controlling the relay

    John



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    Default Re: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

    OK - so the utilization of forward and reverse of a DC motor thru my KBMM-125 / C11GR appears to be above my current components and ... especially MY capabilities. Im going to take a step back for sake of simplicity and out of sheer frustration as Ive been grappling with this now for over 4 solid days and Im feeling the clock ticking away on me ... I bought these components KBMM/CG11 thinking they were widely used and pretty common and there'd be several gents already gone thru this and the solutions pretty well documented. Perhaps they are and it just falls on blind eyes ...

    My motor ... Just as an FYI. Inspired purchase by Hoss.



    These videos were the impetus of feeling like I could pull off Forward / Reverse spindle control - but its obvi much more involved than originally anticipated [ so typical ] ...



    So now that Ive been wised up and scared off of toying with forward and reverse, back to my basic forward only spindle control and coolant power relay issues ...

    Regardless of how this gets done on either Pins 1,14,16,17 etc .. it still appears as if I am left being forced to cannibalize the 5v+/COM between pins 8 & 9 [ aka Output for a 4th Axis ] ....or is that just fine and it wont in anyway interfere with a 4th axis setup ? Meaning that COM/5v+ cna have 2 wires coming out of it - ONE running to the Stepper Driver's PUL+/DIR+ ... and another wire running to the + side of the SSR's PIN /contact [ 3 ] ? I dont think so ... but Im asking anyways.

    Like this - works or no - i think not ...


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Flood Coolant... how to wire it?-20171201_193842-jpg   Flood Coolant... how to wire it?-2017-12-27_1619-jpg  


  3. #51
    Gold Member john-100's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

    the SSR connections looks OK
    with the SSR's positive input connected to any one of the +5V common terminals

    seeing you have a treadmill motor
    I am not sure , but I think the position of brushes are optimised to minimise sparking when run in the one direction for the treadmill
    you will have more sparking when run in reverse

    John

    PS
    whats the part number for the SSR you have



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    Default Re: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

    Thanks John ...

    So i can run my 4th axis stepper driver "and" the COM/5+v via another wire off the same connector on the c11GR out to the ssr ? No conflicts or concerns? Very interesting ...

    Id have thought thats a no go. Im reading all over that the CNC4PC C11GR board for example really must have isolated power [ 12v ] and cannot be used for powering any other components in the box except the C11GR ... no common ground etc ... So this arrangement on the COM/5+v between PINs 8 & 9 on 4th axis gave me pause ...

    Here's my SSR



    Here's how I am about to wire the Spindle Control ...



    I spent some time detailing some new findings on the KBMM-125 and C11GR in my ongoing build thread ... as - it seems I must make PIN assignments for spindle power and associated relays FISRT before using pins/outputs for this coolant power arrangement

    Very weird thread url for my post but ...

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bencht...ing-forum.html




    Quote Originally Posted by john-100 View Post
    the SSR connections looks OK
    with the SSR's positive input connected to any one of the +5V common terminals

    seeing you have a treadmill motor
    I am not sure , but I think the position of brushes are optimised to minimise sparking when run in the one direction for the treadmill
    you will have more sparking when run in reverse

    John

    PS
    whats the part number for the SSR you have


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Flood Coolant... how to wire it?-20171228_105521-jpg   Flood Coolant... how to wire it?-c11grtokbmm-125-jpg  


  5. #53
    Gold Member john-100's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

    your C11G to KB120 & SSR25 wiring looks OK

    just looked again at the new C11G boards manual and to avoid connecting the SSR-25 to the C11G's common (+5V) terminal

    you can connect the Ground terminal to the SSR
    the SSR-25 now will turn ON when pin 1 goes high ( to +5V)

    the C11G only provides a low current to light 2 LED's in the SSR - one is the indicator and the other is in the opto-isolator that switches the Triac on to switch on the external mains load

    NOTE-
    the one thing to ensure is the ground terminal to the PWM to isolated analogue converter is not confused with any other C11G signal ground that's connected to the printer port ground !!!

    Flood Coolant... how to wire it?-new-c11g-ssr-25da-jpg
    note the SSR terminal 4 is now grounded & terminal 3 now goes to the C11G pin 1

    looking at the connections to the speed control board
    the power supplies negative terminal can be connected either to the KB Electronics board P1 terminal when preset potentiometer R3 is set to minimum resistance or connected to I2

    Flood Coolant... how to wire it?-kb-input-jpg

    John

    PS

    found on the web
    this is whats inside a SSR-25

    Flood Coolant... how to wire it?-inside-ebay-ssr25-jpg

    note
    some fake SSR-25's only have a 12A triac inside !!!!!


    PPS

    at a later date ,
    this is how a 2 pole relay could reverse the connections to the armature of your motor
    once a method is found to ensure the motors stopped long enough before its put into reverse


    Flood Coolant... how to wire it?-2-pole-relay-jpg

    Last edited by john-100; 12-28-2017 at 03:53 PM. Reason: add PPS


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    Default Re: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

    John,

    I cannot even begin to tell you how grateful I am to see this drawing and getting some confirmation on how this could/should be done !!! Thank you man ... times eleventy billion ...

    This ... is > than awesome



    Thanks for flushing that SSR connection with PIN 1 and GRND out ... I like that waaay mo' bettah ! from there - its just a matter of informing Mach3 how Ive got it set ... I suspect - and then I need to set via jumper PIN 17 to the 3rd relay to make sure there is no confusion.


    Id prefer to NOT have to take my SSR apart to make sure its not a FAKE - lol Guess I can find out if its any good by testing if it works via output voltage at the OUTLET plug for the coolant.

    Feeling relieved and excited to get this wiring finished up and moving on to testing circuits and powering things on. Putting an order in for a smoothstepper tonight :-) Adding more layers of complexity to the mix.

    Im also going to try and get some info from CNC4PC/Arturo about this ... as when I checked my voltage output - with KBMM MAX trimpot maxx'd I got 14.9v and my motor was spinning on testing over 7500 RPM :-) These DIN rail power supplies I have seem to be voltage adjustable - so perhaps if I got an 18V vs. 12V - I too could replicate this guys rpm/success with some voltage tweaking on the PS and diff boards trim pots.

    Title: Re: Has anyone actually got a C11 to control a KB speed control via Mach?Post by: nucular on July 07, 2012, 03:03:45 PM


    Well, I'm not electrician and it has been a while since I set this up but I will try to help.


    Here is the C11. The spindle control is on the bottom right. The black and yellow cables just run to a DB9 port on the box.


    (http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/q...M/6723f6f5.jpg)


    The black and red wires from the C11 (for spindle power) run to a jack for this separate wall plug.


    (http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/q...M/15993a74.jpg)


    You'll notice the power supply is actually 18V. I know that the KB manual states the supply should be 0 to 10 or something like that but my motor is 110V and when I first set this up, I could not get it to power the motor up to full speed. I spoke with Arturo from CNC4PC and he had me measure the voltage across the KB board with the PWM installed and it came out to more like 15V and in order to get 15V out of those leads, I had to use an 18V supply because there is a slight voltage drop.


    Here is a shot of the KB board. The control wires from the C11 are the green/black wires in the heat shrink. They are connected to the F- and P2 leads on the KB.


    (http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/q...M/4c268ca9.jpg)


    Now, I don't have my motor wired directly to the KB. I have a g0704 and the original box had a FORWARD/REVERSE switch in place so I just left it (even though I don't use reverse). I believe if you wanted, you could just run the A+/A- directly to the motor. My A+ and A- go into the switch and from there it feeds back out to the motor (2 and 6 in this photo):


    (http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/q...M/P1050631.jpg)


    After that it was just a matter of setting it up in ports and pins:


    (http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/q...h3_spindle.jpg)
    wondering now how the smoothstepper adds more options for ports and pins. Will be back with a follow up post after this stuf covered here is wired and working or if more tribulations ensue.

    Many grateful thanks for all the enlightenment and assistance

    Steve

    P.S. - im going to try and draw up a rendition of how I have my 5v and 12v PS wired from the 110v side thru to the C11GR and the 110v COMM and GRNDs - I keep reading about this ISOLATION of the 2 voltages and no grounds or other components to be powered by these supplies if sending power to this BoB ... Does that mean even the 110v power side no shared commons/grounds there as well?
    The learning never ends... nor do the queries.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Flood Coolant... how to wire it?-new-c11g-ssr-25da-jpg  


  7. #55
    Gold Member john-100's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

    yes, put relay 3's jumper to pin 17
    making pin 1 available for the SSR

    from what I remember reading a while ago

    the 2 ports from the smooth stepper duplicate a PC's parallel printer port - pins 2 to 9 being bi directional
    the 3rd if I remember correctly pins 2 to 9 are only outputs

    John



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    Default Re: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

    Ok ... see now youve gone and got me all intrigued and wanting to fritter away hrs researching a way to do this LOL dahhg Nahhhbit !

    Did you perchance watch the video I linked in here of Hoss using the treadmill motor Im using as a "servo" with an encoder and merely a C6 board? Im sure that took some doing and tweaking in Mach to make it work but ... perhaps it holds some clues to a solution. I think his RPM limitation with that setup was due to the board having a 10v max - which left him at about 3200 RPM max. It sure looked like it [ in subsequent vids ] was doing some nice Rigid Tapping.

    Probably a ton more involved behind the scenes than in the video[s] - but it was pretty bad azzzz



    Quote Originally Posted by john-100 View Post
    PPS

    at a later date ,
    this is how a 2 pole relay could reverse the connections to the armature of your motor
    once a method is found to ensure the motors stopped long enough before its put into reverse






  9. #57
    Gold Member john-100's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

    now I know what you want to do

    using the KBMM-125 and the relay is going to be brutal on any taps when you use them for rigid tapping

    the Gecko G320X servo will give you better control
    so you have total control of both the axis up & down position
    and the speed & position of the spindle motor

    John



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    Default Re: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

    I stand corrected - it was the Gecko 320x - not a C6 board - u r absolutely correct and the limitation was the 80V max output ....

    Interesting thing - hes rigged up a switch between the KBMM-125 and the Gecko [ apparently ... discussed in a subsequent video ] Hoss is crafty.


    Quote Originally Posted by john-100 View Post
    now I know what you want to do

    using the KBMM-125 and the relay is going to be brutal on any taps when you use them for rigid tapping

    the Gecko G320X servo will give you better control
    so you have total control of both the axis up & down position
    and the speed & position of the spindle motor

    John




  11. #59
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    Default Re: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

    Well another day another Plot Twist !!! Arrrgghhh ...

    Im going thru the manual again today after landing some more wires as per some prior posts and reading up for clarification of jumper settings .. two new wrinkles pop up. First ...

    ------------------

    If Im reading the C11GR manual pages correctly - the use of the SCHP - Safety Charge Pump - feature of the board - which I want to do as it sounds like an outstanding feature ... utilizes PIN 17! So if PIN 17 is allocated to SCHP and PIN 1 is now to be utilized for Coolant Power Relay switching - not sure where that leaves that 3rd relay which is also associated with either of those two pins ... does it just go dormant and un-usable ... Or does the use of SCHP on 17 mean that Relay 3 is now tied to PIN 1 and I cant use PIN for coolant on/off relay any longer? Pins Pins ... my kingdom for more free PINS ... [ i think ]

    P.S. to this section here ^^^^ - I "think" if I set Relay 3 via jumper to PIN 17 and enable the SCHP feature whats going to happen is PIN 17 goes high when Mach3 has control - which then enables the C11GR in its entirety [ provided the ENABLE switch/jumper is activated ] ... and thus the RELAY 3 associated with PIN 17 - could then trigger/switch on some other "thing/component" as well ... no harm no foul. Hope this understanding is accurate.

    ---------------

    And then lastly, lets assume that I can still use PIn 1 as intended for Coolant relay switching ... is there a difference between the GND next to PIN 1 and the GND between PINs 16 and 17 ? Seems easier and cleaner to wire - if I can just use the GND next to PIN 1 ...



    Thanks ...

    Steve

    ... off to try and discern more out of the manual re: PIn 1/17 and Relay 3 and Safety Charge Pump

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Flood Coolant... how to wire it?-c11grboard-png   Flood Coolant... how to wire it?-2017-12-29_1028-jpg  
    Last edited by MiniSoCalCNC; 12-29-2017 at 02:32 PM.


  12. #60
    Gold Member john-100's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

    Hi Steve

    I expect both of the 2 Ground terminals (marked in post 59) will be connected to the printer port Ground and the 5V power supply negative terminal - a quick resistance check will confirm this

    assuming you keep pins 2 to 9 for controlling 4 axis

    yes your are correct about the pin 17 conflict

    relay 3 can only be controlled by either pin 1 or 17 (so pin 1 can only control relay 3 or the SSR ?)

    but the charge pump needs to use pin 17 !! ( had forgotten about that)

    the PWM to analogue converter is connected to pin 14

    if you select international mode

    pin 14 also switches on relay1

    pin 16 can control relay 2 , which you can use for some thing other than reversing the treadmill motor

    John



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Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

Flood Coolant... how to wire it?