To Tormach or Not ???


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Thread: To Tormach or Not ???

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    Default To Tormach or Not ???

    Hi guys,

    After converting my first mill, a small Jet round column, I am looking for a nice square column. I am very happy with the conversion I have done and it cuts pretty good for what it is. Sample of my first parts: http://k-frames.blogspot.com/

    My first thought was a RF45 or a IH manual mill with the larger work envelope and then convert it myself. But the more I think about it I am not sure if I want to build again. I think I would rather just start making parts but I am torn.

    $8500 + 450 shipping is a good chunk of change and that is for the machine only, no stand. I am also concerned about the stepper motors instead of servo's. Unfortunately I have no experience with steppers as I used the DMM Ac servo's on my build. I like the fact that it is belt drive and it looks like I could rig up my own power draw bar ALA Hoss Machine plans for this instead of pay the 1280 + shipping for that option.

    I am really torn on this and would love to hear your thoughts.

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    I have heard few, if any, complaints about the Tormach machines. I hope to be buying a second machine in a few months, and a Tormach 1100 is top of my list (I was set on a Mikini, as they are located very close to me, and it's totally enclosed, but they seem to be having a lot of spindle controller problems - not good!).

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with steppers on a machine this size - they will give you just as good a result as servos, unless you really like to brag about rapid speeds. And, Tormach has just switched from two-phase to three-phase steppers, which has given them both better accuracy, and increased speed.

    If your intent is to actually DO work, rather than working on the machine itself, buy a Tormach. I don't think you'll regret it.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Member arizonavideo's Avatar
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    It looks like you do mostly smaller parts.

    I would CNC a Weiss 30 or PM30.

    They have more travel and are more ridged than a RF-31, they also have a faster spindle over a RF-45.

    They have just enough room to fit a ball nut under the table.

    The only weak link is the 1.5HP motor just doesn't compare to the 4 HP on my IH mill but they are not really in the same class.

    I had both a RF-31 and the Weiss 30 at the same time and the Weiss was much more ridged and made nicer cuts. The travel is longer than some RF-45 type of mills

    You could get it all going for around $2500 for everything.

    I still think it is the best machine for a small shop if you don't need higher HP and I have a IH mill, a Weiss 30 and a G0704 to compare to.



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    If your like the rest of us and enjoy designing, machining, building the machine I would say convert one of the machines mentioned above. Otherwise get the Tormach. There machines are the only RTR machines I would buy. I've thought about it and probably will have one eventually, but I enjoy the build process.



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    Hi arizonavideo,
    May I know what weight of IH milling head approximately? What height of Z from table top to Z top? I am now in the process of building one, just to compare.

    Last edited by asuratman; 11-02-2011 at 09:47 AM. Reason: typo


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    I seem to compare stuff frequently. For the money you get a lot more with the Novakon NM-200 series 2 compared to the PCNC 1100.

    Matt

    NM-200 Pro Series 2



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    Quote Originally Posted by mmprestine View Post
    I seem to compare stuff frequently. For the money you get a lot more with the Novakon NM-200 series 2 compared to the PCNC 1100.

    Matt

    NM-200 Pro Series 2
    In terms of "features", perhaps. But spend some time on the Novakon forum and listen to some of the problems people over there have had getting their machines to actually work as advertised, and getting support from Novakon. The Tormach machines actually work as advertised out of the box, so if you want to get to work right away, to me there is no question which one to go with. And, by all reports, Tormach support is outstanding.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    I'll second that. There are people in most of the forums that love each of the vendors. In the Tormach forum, it seems EVERYONE loves the vendor. Even when users have issues they get resolved quickly and professionally.

    Look in other forums and there are many stories of lingering issues or outright negligence of the costumers' needs on some cases. I have yet to see a single case of that with Tormach.

    CAD, CAM, Scanning, Modelling, Machining...


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    That is kind of why I asked about the Tormach. I have read the "IH return my money thread" and the various other threads and they scare me.

    If I am going to work on a machine to tweak it and fix it I would rather have built it in the first place, know exactly what parts are needed, and not have to rely on any one source for repairs.

    I never have been a big warranty kind of guy, I would rather fix it myself then send stuff back to have it fixed. I guess that is why I am torn.

    Let me ask this... are there any bench top machines with fixed heads like the Tormach... IE: without a quill that needs to be locked and already have belt drives?

    Closest I can find is the G0720R with a belt drive.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcphill View Post
    I'll second that. There are people in most of the forums that love each of the vendors. In the Tormach forum, it seems EVERYONE loves the vendor. Even when users have issues they get resolved quickly and professionally.

    Look in other forums and there are many stories of lingering issues or outright negligence of the costumers' needs on some cases. I have yet to see a single case of that with Tormach.


    Last edited by skray775; 11-02-2011 at 05:50 PM.


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    All chinese made machines are likely to have issues if the manufacturers are left unchecked. In general if something can be done by hand in a chinese factory it will be and that leads to a lot of variation. You can get quality product from Japanese manufacturers, but you have to do stringent QA and make sure they end up paying for they're mistakes.
    Tormach in particular seems to have the QA side down and they seem smart enough to keep their customers happy, they also charge a premium to be able to do that.

    I ended up ordering one of the EOL Novakon NM-145's, should have it in the next couple of weeks, we'll see how it goes, but my attitude is to assume it only has basic QA on it, and that I will have to address various issues when they arrise. Interestingly many of the complaints about the NM-145 seem centered on the electronics, the bulk of which are sourced and fitted in the US.



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    The Optimum machines would be good to look into. I think everyone that has bought these machines are very pleased. But they do cost a little more. They come out of Germany and they seem to be built a lot better than other machines. I am not sure if all of them are this way but they come with hardened ways, hand scraped and fitted, with good DC controllled PMDC spindle motors with veriable speed, plus I believe gears also.



    There is a lot of choices out there right now. Main thing is research and look around for what fits yoru needs best.



    Jess

    GOD Bless, and prayers for all.


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    Default Tormach

    I recently bought a Tormach 770 and couldn't be more pleased with it. My first CNC mill was a conversion but this time I just wanted to make parts. The 770 was ready to go to work quickly. It is easy to use (still getting used to not having hand wheels!) and so much more powerful than my old machine. I haven't had any problems with skipping steps on the steppers, the mills tend to break first!

    I wasn't totally sure that the Tormach was the right choice but I made a trip to their headquarters and saw the machines in action. I also met several of the staff and was impressed with the professionalism displayed. I think the thing that ended up convincing me in the end was seeing their R&D area and the number of accessories being designed and tested. Any company that is so actively supporting their product and working to make it better, I didn't think I could go wrong!

    Bob



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    Just finished reading some Novakon threads... One poor guy had 8 pounds of casting sand out of his machine and it looked like a mess. Another had a complete tear down and a few minor issues but then the motor drive failed and no replacement available.

    Great looking machine and the work area is awesome but man it seems like a crap shoot.

    I also read a thread on a Tormach tear down and rebuild and it looked much better.



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    I have never used one but in three years of reading the forums I have only read a few small complaints about the Tormach, something about a broken wire....

    I think they set the standard in customer services and QC.

    My IH came with non parallel Z ways . They sent me lapping compound.



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    My Tormach arrived with issues. The power drawbar didn't always work, there was some nasty noise from the Z axis, and one of the oiler fittings was broken.

    Hey, it's a Chinese machine. I expected problems.

    But the difference with Tormach is that I was able to call them on the phone, speak to one of their engineers, and get it all fixed. It took multiple calls and emails, but I was never told,"They all do that," or "I don't know," or "Call back later."

    Every time I called, the phone was answered. Every time I emailed, I got a reply within 24 hours. When parts were needed, they shipped that day and arrived within the week.

    (My problems were traced to a bad wall wart for the drawbar, and a Z axis brake connection that needed a dollop of grease.)

    From what I read about some of the other companies out there, I would be potentially sitting here with a dead machine, trying to troubleshoot it myself.

    Frederic



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    I've got an early Series I Tormach PCNC 1100 and have never had a problem with lost steps. The new poly-phase drivers and steppers are reportedly even more bullet proof.

    In the 5 years or so that I've had mine there have been a handful of component failures and several upgrades made. All of the critical stuff was shipped same day and received the next and that included both a driver and the main control board.

    Users from some other vendors are having a much more difficult time getting parts.

    Another nice thing is that Tormach has so far been very good about making upgrades available to us older users; things like the better spindle VFD, the new steppers, the power drawbar, ATC, etc.

    Mike



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    Go for the Tormach! You will make use of it very well. Show us the parts when you are finished.



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    Default Well.....

    I am kinda unsure about what to say here. Kregan has already built a nice little mill that has what I would consider MOST of the capability of the Tormach machine. Yeah I know it is a round column and not as convenient to use in certain ways but it will do most of what a Tormach can already. At least I do not think that spending damn near $10k on a new Tormach machine is gonna drastically change his capabilities.

    Having said that however I must agree with the other posters that if you are interested in a turn key benchtop machine and are NOT concerned about the cost of the machine then the Tormach is a good choice. I say this NOT because I think it is a very good machine actually, more because of the fact that the people who make it have very good feedback from their customers, they have parts availability, and the most interesting thing is that they are doing ONGOING Research and development on interesting items for that particular machine. They have toolchangers, fourth axes, power drawbars, all sorts of interesting tooling which personally is why I chose to go with the TTS system for my CNC mill. They also seem to not want to change the basic machine drastically which makes the older machines capable of being upgraded to their newest items. This all makes the Tormach machine much more desirable to purchase over their OTHER Chinese CNC competition despite the better travels and larger weight of some of them.

    Now having said all of that I must go back to my own personal argument about the Tormach. The problem for me with the Tormach machine is that once you are willing to drop that much coin on a Tormach machine IE ready to run with tooling and the deluxe stand, and the typical upgrades not even including the toolchanger you are well into the $10k range. For that kind of money there are MANY used commercial machine tools out there that will literally run circles around the Tormach, be equipped with a toolchanger, full enclosures, cat tooling, and TONS more rigidity, accuracy, and power than the Tormach ever could hope to provide. For me that is just too close to a real machining center to make it a viable option. There is something to be said about the overall size of the Tormach and it's ability to fit into a smaller space and run off single phase power. Obviously there are a whole bunch of people who surely have considered this and still wound up buying a Tormach machine. There area a lot of examples of interesting products and cool parts being machined on Tormach machines so they are at least capable of that. Additionally a Tormach machine with a toolchanger and the deluxe stand is pretty close to a machining center at least in operation. However for me the money spent can put you into a decent used VMC and provide much more tool rigidity, power, accuracy, speed, and capability overall and if you are willing to spend a bit more you would be amazed at what you can buy in a Commercial VMC for your shop assuming you have the space and power required. For me it would be a no brainer. A Brand new well regarded CHINESE cnc benchtop mill or a USED Commercial machine built to run day in and day out in a production environment. It also comes down to what you intend to do with the machine, If you wish to just do prototype work and pretty limited production then a Tormach may be a better choice. If you intend to make any sort of decent parts runs on your machine then a VMC is by far the way to go.

    Just some random thoughts about this and this is coming from someone who actually has quite some respect for the Tormach company, their tooling system, and their customer service. Peace

    Pete



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    Good job Pete, with $10k at stake, someone should play Devil's Advocate. But that makes me wonder, what problem does the Tormach solve for you? Is it the amount of interaction required to make your parts? Speed? Accuracy? All of the above? Is there a way you can test it out first so you can be confident in your decision? Maybe visit a nearby Tormach owner with some gcode, stock material, and a case of beer?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Hans_G View Post
    Good job Pete, with $10k at stake, someone should play Devil's Advocate. But that makes me wonder, what problem does the Tormach solve for you? Is it the amount of interaction required to make your parts? Speed? Accuracy? All of the above? Is there a way you can test it out first so you can be confident in your decision? Maybe visit a nearby Tormach owner with some gcode, stock material, and a case of beer?
    This is what I'm wondering... If you have a working machine, why change? These forums seem to be alot about comparing specs rather than making parts..... If you are using it for real production and have the space, why wouldn't you get a used VMC? I have a converted round column mill with servos, but it doesn't have an oiler, or high speed so I'm thinking about a Tormach too rather than take it all apart and upgrading it, but if I had the room and was doing more than hobby stuff, I'd get a used Sharp, Hurco, Haas or something.



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To Tormach or Not ???

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