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    Default Pricing

    Herbertkabi, I don't want to insult the modest machinist but may i contact you privately on here (cnczone.com) for pricing? I am pretty sure you'll be satisfied with the pricing I am offering. I don't mean to offend you at all, but the sooner I can get a spindle going on my machine the better. I use my machine for engraving and making plaques and or medals and your spindle seems to fit what I need. I would build my own according to your plans, but if I can get one in a couple of weeks it will really put me ahead of time. I have researched your design, along with my friends and they say your design and the precision you have on your spindle would more than suffice my use...so, again, if I may contact you privately I am sure you'll be satisfied by my price.

    "Are you gonna eat that?"


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    1.) Try to find as better as possible Collet Chuck extension - as cheaper as possible.
    Every type could be OK, every shank diameter could be OK - Shank diameter ---> Bearings. If you have access to good Shaft-Grinder - you can resize some used collet chuck to needed diameter (ID of bearings you found. But this Shaft-Grinder must to be very experienced/practiced/versed !!! Unfortunately very often they are not.
    2.) Try to find as better angular contact Bearings as possible - as cheaper as possible.
    To engrave medals you dont need 1...2 kW motors I used. Even for my works Im doing my last motor is too powerful, but it does not matter for me. I hope I can tell you about near every motor you have found - is it OK or not - you have only to ask about.
    Summary: you can keep your budget much more lower level.

    I do not sell my spindles! I just gave some ideas for people who like to try.
    I have Kavo 4025, I have Elte 350w, I have few more HF spindles I have bought from eBay for study how they are made - I dont use these asynchronous spindles - I like my DIY BLDC spindle.
    Regards,
    Herbert



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    OK - two sides - completed Spindle side and completed Motor side, I dont want to take it more apart than to half right now - it runs very well, bearings are greased-preloaded.
    Spindle side - 1360 g = 2.99 lb
    Motor side - 780 g = 1.72 lb
    Too heavy weight? I did it especially, larger mass gives more stability against vibration.
    Outer diameter of Spindle side is 43mm - its common spindle diameter in Europe. But any diameter you like is good.
    My first spindle I made years ago I used Aluminum as main housing.
    Inside this housing was "spindle side" made from Bronze (just bearing holder) and motor from another side, simple T-coupling between and nothing more.
    Shaft was also ER-11 extension, hollow shaft mode, but bearings I used 4 x R1212 thin section bearings on the lower side and 2 on the upper. These are cheap bearings even when ceramic balls. Light preload between upper and lower side and you can mill/engrave your medals long time as old man ;-) I did run this spindle with up to 50k rpm, motor was at first Lehner 1930/8, but it wants to go too hot without water cooling, I changed it to 4-pole iron core older German made Icarus, speed was now lower but enough anyway - 35k rpm. As I have told - there is huge choice of motors and controllers, as well as you can use what ever for Shaft, you can use some original shaft from broken spindle, to use collet extensions, straight grinder shafts ... you can order from machine shop especially made for you shaft as well ... without collet at all - like simple tool-holder 1/8" bore ... All starting from SHAFT - all the rest depends about , what bearings, what ever else ...
    Regards,
    Herbert
    PS:
    When you have one time tasted super precision bearings then you never want to use something else when we are talking about high speed spindles.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails High Speed Spindle for SIEG X2 Mill - getting technical-first_simple-jpg  


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    Default Thanks Herbertkabi

    I just need a materials list, if possible. The kinds of metals you used for your spindle, I have Cold rolled, Hot rolled, stainless steel, and aluminum stocks. I want to begin building this spindle this weekend. Also do you have measurements? What is the degree of angle on the cone?
    Thanks, Herbertkabi for encouraging me to build my own using your plans/ideas.

    "Are you gonna eat that?"


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    Material list? Spindle housing and Cone - Stainless steel, round, I just bought from German ebay edelstahl 50mmx300mm piece, 1.4301-X5CrNi18-10 but its not so important, Cone angle 45 degrees ... also more like your taste about visuality ;-)
    Housing/sleeve for upper bearing I made from stainless, despite was planned from Bronze. Fixator/cup for coupling mother side - 7075 aluminium as well as Long Sleeve. Preloading dish between fixator and upper bearings - Stainless steel. Then you need to make spring under upper bearing ... Im not sure you can find exact size waved spring washer - you can change this - many another ways. Force of spring is critical of course. 0.05 and 0.1 mm washers (or any thin thicknes) - hard to find right sizes - Im making myself from 0.1mm and 0.05mm special brass sheet (patent ;-) very good quality! - I need to show it separately. It is meaningless to give dimensions when I dont know exact type and sizes of shank you will use as spindle shaft, the same story with bearings ... all the rest depends about ... for example some super precision bearings does not need any washer between outer rings when Back/Back scheme (my lower bearings) - GRW 1/2/001 AC1 TA I use - there its necessary ... and so on.
    Herbert



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    Hi all. I'm sure someone else besides me has considered buying something like the NSK spindles without the motor, and adapting a model aircraft motor to drive it - in the manner of Herbert's nice design.

    Does anyone know of anybody who has successfully done it? It would save the effort and avoid the skilled machining required to produce housings and fit bearings precisely, and although it would cost more than the do-it-yourself option, perhaps it would suit someone less skilled (like me!) in machining, or with less time.

    The motor would need an adaptor to screw onto the NSK spindle and the drive shaft of the motor would need to be machined into a '+' shape, which seems easy enough. It would also allow for painless auto tool change if one selected a spindle such as this:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/NSK-E3000-SERIES...3286.m14.l1318

    Or, a cheaper one:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/NSK-E3000-SERIES...3286.m14.l1318

    Anyone have any thoughts?


    Jason



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    I have tried by this way. Have used several Factory made spindles found from eBay, just added motor via coupling or installed rotor direct to the end shaft. The last mentioned is very hard because balancing - but sometimes did pan out successfully.
    I have few more suchlike spindles I have bought, waitings rebuilding.
    First you have to take it apart and to look what is insida ... often you find:
    *sui generis sizes of bearings are near worn-out or there are just common cheap ones and you cant find same size precise angular ones.
    *unique type of collet - it looks like similar to ... but it is not and you never find.
    *sealing system is abrased ...
    If (and mostly;-) you cant find exact size new bearings - you have to resize or housing or shaft or both :-( By my opinion I get more precise thing when started from "0" than resized existed housing - but you Boss - Im not high master of machinings.
    Installed unique collet, the only one you have installed is for example for 2.2mm shank endmills ...
    You cant find endmills, you cant find better size collets ....
    You have exact the same start point as when starting with new one + rotten humor.
    Do you like to see my "store" of aparted spindles? When bought for $10..20 then OK, but some stupid things I have bought for ... oh dear!!! ... better to let it be ...
    But ok - some spindles I have rebuilt to be motorized very easy and they works well.
    Regards,
    Herbert



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    Here are several high speed spindles that are being marketed by Keling.

    http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCSpindleandController.html

    Many of us use Keling's electronic components. These might be very good spindles.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails High Speed Spindle for SIEG X2 Mill - getting technical-036_1_-423x157-jpg  


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    Default Nice Spindles

    These are very nice spindles (pricey, but quality) but Herbertkabi's design is very sound and comes in under 5lbs (including motor) and by his accounts seem robust for it's size and what I need to do, but the kelinginc.com spindle is very, very interesting to me. it would make for a very good gantry mill, maybe a 5 axis build. Thanks.

    "Are you gonna eat that?"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbertkabi View Post
    Do you like to see my "store" of aparted spindles? When bought for $10..20 then OK, but some stupid things I have bought for ... oh dear!!! ... better to let it be ...
    But ok - some spindles I have rebuilt to be motorized very easy and they works well.
    Regards,
    Herbert
    Herbert - yes please! Would really like to see pictures of the spindles you have dismantled... I have a Kavo 4029 that needs new bearings, and a 4052 with a bent rotor but I haven't yet built up enough courage to try to open them It's a shame, I have frequency convertors for them both, but the spindles need rebuilding and I don't want to pay the price for the factory to fix them!

    Regards,
    Jason



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    Herbertkabi, I have a question. Do you pack the bearings with grease prior to assembly, or is there a grease nipple I'm not seeing to lubricate the bearings? What is the advantage of greased bearings instead of a sealed oil bath design? Don't you have to re-pack the bearings with grease occasionally? I have an ER20 collet extension that I would like to build a spindle around, your design looks great.

    Thanks for any help you can give.



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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeykid View Post
    Herbertkabi, I have a question. Do you pack the bearings with grease prior to assembly, or is there a grease nipple I'm not seeing to lubricate the bearings? What is the advantage of greased bearings instead of a sealed oil bath design? Don't you have to re-pack the bearings with grease occasionally? I have an ER20 collet extension that I would like to build a spindle around, your design looks great.

    Thanks for any help you can give.
    hi,
    I do grease when assembling. No nipples but of course you can add nipples as well if you feel necessity. I have disassambled/assambled my spindles after few times anyway - did like to see how it looks ... it looks well and no matter to add new grease. Now I go to disassambly only when felt strange noises or any else deflexion. When ready built then few times you will need to take it apart again and again ... its not hard to do because you made it yourself .
    Nothing happend with my 45 krpm spindle (water cooled) in past 4 months and my 33 krmp spindle (air cooled) runs well more than year.
    It runs right now as well, I do hear it ;-)
    I use ISOFLEX NBU 15 (Kluber).
    Cheers,
    Herbert



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    Well I've got a Taig with a 1/4hp 3450RPM motor and like a ~1:3 pulley ratio at best, so around 10k RPM at the spindle.

    I've only used solid carbide so far (got a great dealer in Round Rock here).

    Especially the smaller bits and engravers must have high speed. The tiniest engraver I was using has a tip like 4mil. So the tip's surface (pi*diameter*rpm) is only rubbing against the material at 2in/sec at 10,000 rpm. This limits the ipm speed and finish.

    I was trying to run 2-flute 1/8" carbide endmill into aluminum bronze and having power problems with high rates. I swore at times I saw the carbide bend. I broke 4 bits experimenting, but none flew out of the work much less at a dangerous speed. I could hear the motor slow down a bit. This is probably due more to the mistake of running it off an extension cord; there's no plug in this part of the garage and I have had trouble installing one but it's high on the to-do list. In fact the lamp dimmed so I know the extension cord was responsible for dropping the voltage some.

    I would like the ability to get more speed and more torque. I'm also concerned though about the maximum RPM the spindle bearings can take. Also the Taig belt drive may not take it- without an idler wheel, I can see that belt is swinging "out there" the highest speed and sometimes vibrates, even though I try to maximize the tension on it. And also at high ratios the belt can potentially slip on the smallest pulley (which would be the spindle) when torque increases. In fact at a stop, even when I have the belt tensioned as high as I can by hand, I can hold the spindle stopped by hand and turn the motor pulley by hand and it'll slip over the spindle pulley. It's only able to resist a few ft-lbs of torque so unless I can switch to direct-drive with a super-powerful motor of a much higher RPM I'm not sure that increasing the hp won't just result in slippage, a burned belt, and a broken bit as it drops from the needed RPM.

    I did see there's a 8000-2400RPM 1.5KW (2hp) spindle with ER11 collet on eBay for $281. They've got a 3KW water-cooled one too!
    Also there's this Kress 800. 800W, aircooled, 10,000-31,000 rpm, and that's only $183. The thermal shutoff NEEDS to be rewired to the E-Stop!
    These things are DC motors so they can be controlled electronically, but the air-cooled ones are screwed at lower speeds. They can produce lots of torque, but the fan isn't moving enough air to keep it cool so it can burn up right there. Unfortunately a small computer fan ducted in there isn't gonna do the job. Significant CFM at a fairly good pressure are needed so it'll need to be a pretty good blower (which isn't rocket science territory but it's not trivial either).

    Last edited by MechanoMan; 04-12-2009 at 04:58 AM.


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    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showth...t=72691&page=2
    #19
    Final result was up to 8600 rpm with 24V, (12.900 when 36V).
    Its silent, high torque, high efficient ...
    RPM regulates via Servo Tester,
    When smart enough in electronics then add circuits and fully controlled/independent RPM is not a problem.
    cheers,
    Herbert



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    Quote Originally Posted by MechanoMan View Post
    Well I've got a Taig with a 1/4hp 3450RPM motor and like a ~1:3 pulley ratio at best, so around 10k RPM at the spindle.
    Just noticed the Taig mention and thought I'd post my experience lately..

    I've been running my stock Taig spindles at 10k (by specs, not measured) for a little while now. After maybe 10 - 15 hours of machining, the bearings in both the standard Taig spindle and the ER-16 Taig spindle were shot. Still useable, but you can hear and feel the damage. They never got hot (barely warm) to the touch. They're just not that good of bearings. I replaced the bearings in the standard spindle with angular contact ones, but think I got the preload wrong and they lasted about 15 minutes before the grease vaporized and the bearings were shot.

    I bought the Wolfgang mini-spindle from eBay a few months ago, but the motor pulley was loosely held on there with some oozing Loctite and wouldn't spin. Got it wedged on with a "shim" / sleeve (no setscrews in it..) but it doesn't appear to be doing near 10k rpm, let alone more.. I need to build an optical tach or buy one, hard to tell RPM by comparing it to the Taig. Maybe it really is going that fast but doesn't seem it because it's not as loud...? Either way I need to do something. The motor looks like a small vacuum cleaner motor and smells way too much of ozone from the brushes. I did buy the motor just to "get me by" until I figured out a new one for it, so no huge loss there. The spindle itself looks to be of nice quality.

    I also looked at the NSK spindles and thought about adding my own motor, but haven't spent the $$$$$$$ yet. My "new" machine design has changed at least 100x in my mind, so I haven't settled on "small high speed" spindle on a light duty frame, or super-overkill spindle on heavy duty frame... I had planned on just using the Taig spindle with DC treadmill motor, before realizing how fast 10k RPM kills them.

    If I were good I'd try and replicate Herbert's spindle, but my little Taig lathe chatters on aluminum, never mind stainless.



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    This is a wonderful thread packed with great info. My thanks to the contributors.
    However, after reading some of the info here I needed to better understand the designs presented and so went surfing. I came up with a link that I feel is relevant to the thread and wanted to post it here.

    http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/hi...struction.aspx

    Devin



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    I just wanted to say thankyou to Herbert for sharing his designs, experience and humility. I have read the entire thread from end to end and found it inspiring on several levels.
    Could someone clarify the way the "Brushless Speed Controlers" is controlled by mach3 etc what I mean is how does the controller know how fast to go? Does it use a variable control voltage?
    Also is there any reason you could not attach an optical encoder to the other motor spindle as some of the "inrunner"? brushless motors have dual shafts for fans connected to other end.
    I am very new to this area and have alot to learn but if we used an optical encoder couldn't we use a cheaper controller without governor function and use mach 3 to give precise speed/torque control?
    Regards
    Mac



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    Quote Originally Posted by red_glass View Post
    I just wanted to say thankyou to Herbert for sharing his designs, experience and humility. I have read the entire thread from end to end and found it inspiring on several levels.
    Could someone clarify the way the "Brushless Speed Controlers" is controlled by mach3 etc what I mean is how does the controller know how fast to go? Does it use a variable control voltage?
    Also is there any reason you could not attach an optical encoder to the other motor spindle as some of the "inrunner"? brushless motors have dual shafts for fans connected to other end.
    I am very new to this area and have alot to learn but if we used an optical encoder couldn't we use a cheaper controller without governor function and use mach 3 to give precise speed/torque control?
    Regards
    Mac
    These controllers use PWM for. Simplest PWM generator (or RC servo tester) then you can just control the motor speed (via pot.) I have covernor circuit my friend made it - it keeps any choiced constant speed when load changes, but my spindle does not co-operate with mill controls ... Im too weak in electronics - anyway it is possible.
    I have now Mach3 control too ( X15-250 - bought from machmotion.com) but biulding my new 5-axis mill takes all my time right now - still I have not familiar with this nice stuff at all, just its waiting hes time on my table. Soon I start with wirings of my new machine - then will see.
    cheers,
    herbert



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    I threw away several hundred dollars trying to get my mini mill spindle above 10k. High speed bearings, motors it was all a waste of time and money.

    Major problem if you do not have access to serious tools which I don't so I wasted money buying services and parts that never really worked.

    I finally just broke down and bought a real NSK high speed spindle and retrofitted it myself. Problem solved.

    Up to 50k as it stands 30k with speed reducer to increase torque.







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    Nice! I've been looking at those... How does it sound at full speed? I figured I'd get by with the Wolfgang one from eBay but it was a waste of $. Figure I might as well spend the $ for a real one. Any personal experiences with it? Do you use 1/8 tooling, or just smaller stuff? (.01"?) What kind of feeds do you get with it? Inquiring minds...

    Last edited by Riceburner98; 09-13-2009 at 02:23 PM.


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High Speed Spindle for SIEG X2 Mill - getting technical

High Speed Spindle for SIEG X2 Mill - getting technical