Want to control your spindle with Mach3 but can't.. Maybe this helps.


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Thread: Want to control your spindle with Mach3 but can't.. Maybe this helps.

  1. #1
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    Default Want to control your spindle with Mach3 but can't.. Maybe this helps.

    Being an SX3 owner, I have had no real way to control the SX3 from the CNC controller. With ambitions of having an ATC and being able to program speed changes through Mach, I was at my witts end trying to decide what to do.

    After looking around at various options such as - Replaceing the driver and keeping my existing 1000 watt BLDC motor, Replacing the whole thing with a different mill, Replacing the motor and controller with a VFD and 3 phase motor, etc, etc. I stumbled across Keling's website and a motor and controller system that he was selling. At the time, I was burnt out on the whole thing but I decided to spend the time researching what I could find out about. So I contacted John (Keling) and Syil and everyone that I knew might have an answer. I got a response back from John at Keling and he said he wasn't sure about the mach 3 connections but I could contact Syil, etc.

    I contacted them and they said they had no idea. On a hunch, I just bought the set of motor and controller on a chance that it might work. my hunch paid off and now I have a motor and controller that I can run using Mach3 directly. What I have is to large for my SX3 but it will be the start of my G0516 CNC lathe build. And now I can use it with Constant velocity turning. Keling is getting more of the motors in that are the 1100 watt size soon so I will be on the list and review that as well. What I bought was a 2200 watt/3 hp size. Runs from 400rpm to 6000rpm and is powered with 110 volts/or 220volts single phase.

    The system can be found here. http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCmillingcontroller.html

    These can be run using different inputs such as 0-10Volt like a standard VFD and also a PWM input directly from your Breakout board such as a C11g or the like. I am unsure about the G540, but I will be using that soon for my lathe and will determine that later on. I am using the Step and Direction settings in Mach 3 and using PWM for control. I am able to use the machine both forward and reverse spindle control and control the full speed range from 400 to 6000rpm with surprising accuracy. Overall, the speed is stable within 20 rpms around my target.

    I posted a video on the system [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO9x40I4QJo"]YouTube- motor and controller review[/nomedia], and it also shows the speed control from Mach and how the response is. Being the first controller I have setup, I can only say that I was either desperate and it works OK in your view, or in mine, I am extremely pleased with the outcome. Please do tell me if you think something could be done better. I do like constructive criticism.

    I have attached the screen shots that show my settings in Mach 3 using the PWM settings. Being the first batch that John ordered from SangMutan (The system vendor) mine didn't have the control chip for the 0-10volt input, but John says the next ones will have that, in addition to the PWM. Both in the 1100 watt and the 2200 watt model.

    I have attached the photos of the Mach 3 Settings to the thread that I used to show the above video and they should be very close to your settings. I also have linked higher res pictures to the thread that show more detail about the motor and controller, such as Size of the motor and size of the controller. Obviously, the 1100 watt model will be smaller and looks to be a dropin fit for the SX3. Myself, I will be storing my controllers outside of the SX3 chassis so I do not have to remove the mill from its enclosure to work on it, should the need arise.


    As for the wiring for the device, I simply have 4 wires coming from my c11g board connecting to the driver. Those are 5+ volts, Ground(Gnd) and then wires coming from output 1 and 17 that go straight to the CN6 connector on the driver. My output 1 goes to PWM and the Output 17 goes to F/R on the CN6. The settings in Mach 3 determine my direction and pulse. One thing to note is that once you supply +5 volts to the BLDC drive on CN6, it will disable the spindle controller button panel. So it would be good to add a switch to your system that can toggle the use of the panel if you are in Manual mode. One other wiring item is on the 2200 watt model, there is a Jumper lead that needs to be connected if using 110volt power so that you get your full RPM range from the unit. This is located at the end of the driver next to the capacitors. I do not think this is needed if using it on 220 Volt. The wireing for the motor is very straight forward and the letter codes are on the wires for the motor correspond to the Driver and the same for the wires between the panels. There are also other inputs such as a temperature input and others that are listed in the manual. That is linked at the bottom of the thread.

    The Button panel is the EXACT same size and layout as the current SX3 controller panel as well, so it could be a direct replacement. I believe the LCD is as well, but I have not blueprinted my existing SX3 lcd as of yet, but I would be surprised if it isn't.


    I am in the process of building a plate for my Lathe control panel that will look similar to the c6 lathe control, and then I will start the Motor mount for the lathe. Then I will begin the full CNc conversion. Stay tuned, I'm going to add info to this thread as I work with this system more.

    I hope this 1100 watt model gives you an option to use with the SX3 if you have one, but on the other hand. These motors and controllers would work on a Scratch build as well as anything else. Even an Rf45 or small Bridgeport could be enhanced by this 2200 watt system. You could probably even use the 22000 watt with an SX3 if you wanted, but you would have to get creative with the motor mounts. You can see below how much larger the motor is to the X3 motor below. The X3 isn't much smaller than the SX3 BLDC motor and there is much more mass to the 2200 watt one next to it. Also about a 11 pound difference in weight.



    Keep the chips flying, Chris.



    Motor size comparisons
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0005.jpg
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0004.jpg
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0001.jpg

    Controller Top View
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...iver-top-1.jpg
    Closer view of Driver connections
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...Controller.jpg
    Driver input panel
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...Controller.jpg
    Driver Side View
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...river-side.jpg

    Button Panel
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...eyboard-Fr.jpg
    Panel Backside
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ine/Keypad.jpg

    LCD Back
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ne/LCDback.jpg


    There is a product Announcement here:
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93745

    SangMutan Website here:
    http://www.sangmutan.com/

    As for other products mentioned in this article,

    The c11G Breakout board can be found here.
    http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...products_id=46

    I also use a C3 Index card to read RPM within Mach3
    http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...roducts_id=129

    Similar Threads:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Want to control your spindle with Mach3 but can't.. Maybe this helps.-pwm-settings-jpg   Want to control your spindle with Mach3 but can't.. Maybe this helps.-outputs-jpg   Want to control your spindle with Mach3 but can't.. Maybe this helps.-kernel-jpg   Want to control your spindle with Mach3 but can't.. Maybe this helps.-spindle-motor-pins-jpg  

    Want to control your spindle with Mach3 but can't.. Maybe this helps.-spindle-steps-jpg   Want to control your spindle with Mach3 but can't.. Maybe this helps.-brushless-motor-controller-pdf  
    Last edited by cjdavis618; 07-19-2010 at 10:22 AM.


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    Hi, thanks a lot for your time, very good post, will keep it in my favorite

    for future use.

    Jeff



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    That looks like it would be just the ticket for the G0602 to get a variable speed drive.



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    Thanks for the information Chris, I've been looking at ways to get the spindle of my Syil SX3 back under Mach control as the existing Syil control board is woeful in this respect.

    This gives me another option to consider.



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    Thanks for the input guys. This has been a project I have looked forward to for a long time. But frankly, I didn't know enough about 3 phase motors and VFDs to match anything up and there weren't any really good guides that explained it that I could find. When I ran across this set, I thought this could work but I still couldn't get a definitive answer. I thought, Heck, I waste more money than this set on parts and tooling that I'll probably never use, and at least I can manually control the speed with my lathe, so it wouldn't be a big loss. Instead I found my answer.


    Quote Originally Posted by iGG1e View Post
    Thanks for the information Chris, I've been looking at ways to get the spindle of my Syil SX3 back under Mach control as the existing Syil control board is woeful in this respect.

    This gives me another option to consider.
    On your Syil SX3, Did the video of this motor show much better responsiveness to the speed input? I remember that some said that the original Syil controller had to "hunt" for the speed and would be all over the board and take a very long time to find the correct speed.






    Also I have posted my plate design for the button plate and LCD for the G0516. With a little adjustment, it would probably work on others as well. Maybe it will help.

    Alibre Part file (Warning, many, many Measuring lines due to holes being of center on the mounting plate.)
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9207121/Lath...20plate.AD_PRT

    .STP file
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9207121/Lath...ut%20plate.stp

    .igs File
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9207121/Lath...ut%20plate.igs



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    so does this kit allow the servo to run as either rpm/dir or step/dir?



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    This is not a "Servo" motor but a Brushless DC motor. RPM/DIR would be closer to it's design.

    The videos show the connections.



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    Quote Originally Posted by cjdavis618 View Post
    On your Syil SX3, Did the video of this motor show much better responsiveness to the speed input? I remember that some said that the original Syil controller had to "hunt" for the speed and would be all over the board and take a very long time to find the correct speed.
    Sorry Chris, completely missed this for some reason. As is stands now if I try to use the spindle under CNC control it takes about 40 seconds to get to the final speed. This final speed is quite often way off from the requested speed. I did profile the curve so I could input values to get the real speed, but as I don't bother with the spindle under CNC control any more I know the front panel buttons do directly relate the indicated to real speed accurately.

    The other worrying aspect to the standard controller and motor was the rather butt clenching inducing trick of actually starting off in reverse and then change direction once it'd reached the target speed.

    All in all, I just gave up with the Syil controller under Mach control.



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    Quote Originally Posted by cjdavis618 View Post
    Being an SX3 owner, I have had no real way to control the SX3 from the CNC controller. With ambitions of having an ATC and being able to program speed changes through Mach, I was at my witts end trying to decide what to do.

    After looking around at various options such as - Replaceing the driver and keeping my existing 1000 watt BLDC motor, Replacing the whole thing with a different mill, Replacing the motor and controller with a VFD and 3 phase motor, etc, etc. I stumbled across Keling's website and a motor and controller system that he was selling. At the time, I was burnt out on the whole thing but I decided to spend the time researching what I could find out about. So I contacted John (Keling) and Syil and everyone that I knew might have an answer. I got a response back from John at Keling and he said he wasn't sure about the mach 3 connections but I could contact Syil, etc.

    I contacted them and they said they had no idea. On a hunch, I just bought the set of motor and controller on a chance that it might work. my hunch paid off and now I have a motor and controller that I can run using Mach3 directly. What I have is to large for my SX3 but it will be the start of my G0516 CNC lathe build. And now I can use it with Constant velocity turning. Keling is getting more of the motors in that are the 1100 watt size soon so I will be on the list and review that as well. What I bought was a 2200 watt/3 hp size. Runs from 400rpm to 6000rpm and is powered with 110 volts/or 220volts single phase.

    The system can be found here. http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCmillingcontroller.html

    These can be run using different inputs such as 0-10Volt like a standard VFD and also a PWM input directly from your Breakout board such as a C11g or the like. I am unsure about the G540, but I will be using that soon for my lathe and will determine that later on. I am using the Step and Direction settings in Mach 3 and using PWM for control. I am able to use the machine both forward and reverse spindle control and control the full speed range from 400 to 6000rpm with surprising accuracy. Overall, the speed is stable within 20 rpms around my target.

    I posted a video on the system , and it also shows the speed control from Mach and how the response is. Being the first controller I have setup, I can only say that I was either desperate and it works OK in your view, or in mine, I am extremely pleased with the outcome. Please do tell me if you think something could be done better. I do like constructive criticism.

    I have attached the screen shots that show my settings in Mach 3 using the PWM settings. Being the first batch that John ordered from SangMutan (The system vendor) mine didn't have the control chip for the 0-10volt input, but John says the next ones will have that, in addition to the PWM. Both in the 1100 watt and the 2200 watt model.

    I have attached the photos of the Mach 3 Settings to the thread that I used to show the above video and they should be very close to your settings. I also have linked higher res pictures to the thread that show more detail about the motor and controller, such as Size of the motor and size of the controller. Obviously, the 1100 watt model will be smaller and looks to be a dropin fit for the SX3. Myself, I will be storing my controllers outside of the SX3 chassis so I do not have to remove the mill from its enclosure to work on it, should the need arise.


    As for the wiring for the device, I simply have 4 wires coming from my c11g board connecting to the driver. Those are 5+ volts, Ground(Gnd) and then wires coming from output 1 and 17 that go straight to the CN6 connector on the driver. My output 1 goes to PWM and the Output 17 goes to F/R on the CN6. The settings in Mach 3 determine my direction and pulse. One thing to note is that once you supply +5 volts to the BLDC drive on CN6, it will disable the spindle controller button panel. So it would be good to add a switch to your system that can toggle the use of the panel if you are in Manual mode. One other wiring item is on the 2200 watt model, there is a Jumper lead that needs to be connected if using 110volt power so that you get your full RPM range from the unit. This is located at the end of the driver next to the capacitors. I do not think this is needed if using it on 220 Volt. The wireing for the motor is very straight forward and the letter codes are on the wires for the motor correspond to the Driver and the same for the wires between the panels. There are also other inputs such as a temperature input and others that are listed in the manual. That is linked at the bottom of the thread.

    The Button panel is the EXACT same size and layout as the current SX3 controller panel as well, so it could be a direct replacement. I believe the LCD is as well, but I have not blueprinted my existing SX3 lcd as of yet, but I would be surprised if it isn't.


    I am in the process of building a plate for my Lathe control panel that will look similar to the c6 lathe control, and then I will start the Motor mount for the lathe. Then I will begin the full CNc conversion. Stay tuned, I'm going to add info to this thread as I work with this system more.

    I hope this 1100 watt model gives you an option to use with the SX3 if you have one, but on the other hand. These motors and controllers would work on a Scratch build as well as anything else. Even an Rf45 or small Bridgeport could be enhanced by this 2200 watt system. You could probably even use the 22000 watt with an SX3 if you wanted, but you would have to get creative with the motor mounts. You can see below how much larger the motor is to the X3 motor below. The X3 isn't much smaller than the SX3 BLDC motor and there is much more mass to the 2200 watt one next to it. Also about a 11 pound difference in weight.



    Keep the chips flying, Chris.



    Motor size comparisons
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0005.jpg
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0004.jpg
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0001.jpg

    Controller Top View
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...iver-top-1.jpg
    Closer view of Driver connections
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...Controller.jpg
    Driver input panel
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...Controller.jpg
    Driver Side View
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...river-side.jpg

    Button Panel
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...eyboard-Fr.jpg
    Panel Backside
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ine/Keypad.jpg

    LCD Back
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ne/LCDback.jpg


    There is a product Announcement here:
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93745

    SangMutan Website here:
    http://www.sangmutan.com/

    As for other products mentioned in this article,

    The c11G Breakout board can be found here.
    http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...products_id=46

    I also use a C3 Index card to read RPM within Mach3
    http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...roducts_id=129
    Hi All,

    we have 2.2KW/6000RPM + Motor Driver kit and 1.1KW/6000 RPM motors + Motor Driver kit in Stock now

    pls check here
    http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCmillingcontroller.html



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelinginc View Post
    Hi All,

    we have 2.2KW/6000RPM + Motor Driver kit and 1.1KW/6000 RPM motors + Motor Driver kit in Stock now

    pls check here
    http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCmillingcontroller.html
    How big are the motors, weight, shaft size? Are they all one size, but different powers? That'd be a lot of weight for an X2, but if the motor is ighter for the lower outputs, it might be what I'm looking for.



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    Hey, the video says 400-6000rpm, but the data sheet says 400-3000rpm. Which is it, and are you over speeding the motor x 2? If so, are you guaranteeing the motor for speed damage if it occurs?



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    Thank you Chris for posting this. Very informative and answered all my questions. I will order one of the 1.1KW motor kit soon for my mill. I've been experimenting with a 1KW treadmill DC motor and although it works well, I have heat issues and and like you mentioned the brushes seem to burn up quickly. But hey I got it cheap so no complaints.

    EK



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Want to control your spindle with Mach3 but can't.. Maybe this helps.

Want to control your spindle with Mach3 but can't.. Maybe this helps.