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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    Just a quickie - the tool table.

    Really easy to get in a mess i think here so i want to get it good from the off.

    If i enter a spindle speed of say 4000rpm and a chip load of say 0.0254mm for a tool, fusion populates the rest with seemingly good figures to start with.

    However, does its F&S calculations go deep enough to vary F&S if i increase or decrease engagement or depth of cut etc in the operation stage???

    Just trying to figure out how i can populate the library with meaningful data to save time if there are so many options and cut strategies etc - HSM, 3d, 2d, facing so on.

    Seems the library is pretty much key to a lot of time saving or wasting so i want to get this area right i think.

    Thanks

    Bending bits of metal in Hertfordshire - https://ddmetalproducts.co.uk


  2. #62
    Gold Member daniellyall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    You are better off useing what the manufacturer recommends for the tool, fusion is just a ballpark figure on the low end of what can be done.

    People ask this question all the time or demand (Not you just saying) a tool library on all the cutters they use the answer is a 100 gig tool library by default, some of the people that use routers are even worse.

    <img src="https://ivxo1q-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4mENMmTr_Cabc7pR0FUdB6gtbADq2JbuG4_rGy0eBQvLJx19pTi6TqMUIJN0xgOyDIc0gWoxYhS38HpbSTFGdfaK-o42IOU6jczrhDpfpCOTNGL1X6hvZCbgj0y35gqmq1YGTrWwShYGV-C7lXA2esy0Pi_WfnBSyroDLSGXwce4uSr1U7op7srdi78rispHCa_K4aFlTlJPVkkNWMfgh_Tg?width=60&height=60&cropmode=none" width="60" height="60" />

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  3. #63
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    Thats what my tests this evening show me too.

    I Have been using a calculator called HSMAdvisor, its pretty good but it seems little point in saving the data with the tool as each recipe seems to be different - different engagement, DOC etc from one job to the next.

    I'm ok if its normal to calculate every tool for each process in every job, just wondering if there was an easier / more sensible option thats all.

    Bending bits of metal in Hertfordshire - https://ddmetalproducts.co.uk


  4. #64
    Gold Member daniellyall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    Doing it by material is he easy way and haveing roughing and finishing labeled tools by material as well, over time you will learn what the cutters you use the most can handle by sight and hearing the sound they make.

    Mooing and screaming is normally fine and sometimes you will make bobos what will ever break the cutter or work fine, I did a bobo by sticking a 1/2in end mill into a bit of MDF at full depth plus most of the way through the spoil board and 100% steep over it worked fine 25mm depth of cut 1/2 width of cut, I now do it all the time in MDF full depth of material and 100% stepover with 1/2in end mills it screams when its cutting

    <img src="https://ivxo1q-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4mENMmTr_Cabc7pR0FUdB6gtbADq2JbuG4_rGy0eBQvLJx19pTi6TqMUIJN0xgOyDIc0gWoxYhS38HpbSTFGdfaK-o42IOU6jczrhDpfpCOTNGL1X6hvZCbgj0y35gqmq1YGTrWwShYGV-C7lXA2esy0Pi_WfnBSyroDLSGXwce4uSr1U7op7srdi78rispHCa_K4aFlTlJPVkkNWMfgh_Tg?width=60&height=60&cropmode=none" width="60" height="60" />

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  5. #65
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    DaveK,

    Look into using templates -- they can be a real time saver.

    A nice simple example:

    PM



  6. #66
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    Thanks,

    I did something right then - I have a "master" library which only defines the tool & holder etc then ones for steel and aluminium, didn't go as far as finish and rough though.

    I'll watch that template vid too, thanks.

    I guess all/most production shops will always calculate for max material removal?
    In some ways I find the tool options are hardest/most important, a lot of time can be wasted by babying tools, especially spiral ramping down - i used to use that all the time until i saw how much time it used, now i plunge wherever possible.

    Bending bits of metal in Hertfordshire - https://ddmetalproducts.co.uk


  7. #67
    Gold Member daniellyall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    It depends what you are cutting for a plunge, I like to use a smooth profile with a decent ramp angle, you can always drill a hole for the plunge first.

    Some materials like wood you don't plunge it can set it on fire.

    <img src="https://ivxo1q-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4mENMmTr_Cabc7pR0FUdB6gtbADq2JbuG4_rGy0eBQvLJx19pTi6TqMUIJN0xgOyDIc0gWoxYhS38HpbSTFGdfaK-o42IOU6jczrhDpfpCOTNGL1X6hvZCbgj0y35gqmq1YGTrWwShYGV-C7lXA2esy0Pi_WfnBSyroDLSGXwce4uSr1U7op7srdi78rispHCa_K4aFlTlJPVkkNWMfgh_Tg?width=60&height=60&cropmode=none" width="60" height="60" />

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  8. #68
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    Never knew that, thanks - i never mill wood

    Bending bits of metal in Hertfordshire - https://ddmetalproducts.co.uk


  9. #69
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    I think we have arrived

    The part in question was originally planned as mostly 3d-adaptive etc, it worked well (finally) but took about 45 minutes to run ( i only have a Bridgeport with 4000rpm)

    Yesterday I cammed it up using what i would consider old-school methods of slot-cutting and plunging etc viewing the part as a series of 2d profiles only.

    I got the run time from 45 minutes down to 20 minutes, made a part and verified the times as correct.

    Is there a reason why slotting seems to be frowned upon these days?
    It was a 10mm 3-flute tool and only going 3mm deep per pass - i have no doubt i could do it all in one pass though.

    Picture shows the old 3d way on the right and the 2d way on the left, both side 1 waste skeletons.

    Much less metal removal with 2d

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hit a snag again :)-side-1-jpg  
    Bending bits of metal in Hertfordshire - https://ddmetalproducts.co.uk


  10. #70
    Gold Member daniellyall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    That time is wrong as of the next update with both ways adaptive being added.

    Different reasons if you have a machine that has HSM useing an adaptive it just eats the material like it is not there, older machines it's if you have enough HP and rpm it's fine If you don't it's not always faster a pocket can kick its arse everyday.

    On my router A big area removal I use a 2D pocket if its a flat hight or 3D if theres different heights as it's way faster than an adaptive if its a small area I will use adaptive, some times I will just do something totally different or weird and use a 3D contour and cut at an angle that keeps the cutter in contact with the surfaces that's being cut, on one item I make doing this save 10 mins a pocket or adaptive is way slower.

    Its down to the machine the area being removed and the material does not matter to much.

    If you did your part in one pass with a Adaptive, you would have to come back with a Contour or Profile cut to clean the edges up, it's the only down side of adaptive if you use a full contact it can chatter the entire cut (depending on rigidity of the machine).

    <img src="https://ivxo1q-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4mENMmTr_Cabc7pR0FUdB6gtbADq2JbuG4_rGy0eBQvLJx19pTi6TqMUIJN0xgOyDIc0gWoxYhS38HpbSTFGdfaK-o42IOU6jczrhDpfpCOTNGL1X6hvZCbgj0y35gqmq1YGTrWwShYGV-C7lXA2esy0Pi_WfnBSyroDLSGXwce4uSr1U7op7srdi78rispHCa_K4aFlTlJPVkkNWMfgh_Tg?width=60&height=60&cropmode=none" width="60" height="60" />

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  11. #71
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    Interesting stuff, i guess there is also non-cut traverse time to consider with adaptive or HSM, slotting does not really have any, its just plunge/ramp and cut.

    A few years ago, I was a manual handle twiddler, didn't even have a DRO until near the end - none of this was even imagined, it was only slot or profile and 3d or adaptive etc was a thing that the pro's did

    When you say "a machine that has HSM" what would that be? High rapids? High torque/power/speed? Something else?

    Bending bits of metal in Hertfordshire - https://ddmetalproducts.co.uk


  12. #72
    Gold Member daniellyall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    Some machine come with a HSM =( high speed machining ) setting at $$$$$ haas machines have the HSM setting at many $0000.

    You can do your model in fusion under 20 mins going no deeper than 4.5mm in one cut

    <img src="https://ivxo1q-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4mENMmTr_Cabc7pR0FUdB6gtbADq2JbuG4_rGy0eBQvLJx19pTi6TqMUIJN0xgOyDIc0gWoxYhS38HpbSTFGdfaK-o42IOU6jczrhDpfpCOTNGL1X6hvZCbgj0y35gqmq1YGTrWwShYGV-C7lXA2esy0Pi_WfnBSyroDLSGXwce4uSr1U7op7srdi78rispHCa_K4aFlTlJPVkkNWMfgh_Tg?width=60&height=60&cropmode=none" width="60" height="60" />

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  13. #73
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    Quote Originally Posted by daniellyall View Post
    You can do your model in fusion under 20 mins going no deeper than 4.5mm in one cut
    Can you elaborate on that please

    Its unimportant on this part but in future.......

    Bending bits of metal in Hertfordshire - https://ddmetalproducts.co.uk


  14. #74
    Gold Member daniellyall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    By useing manly 2D toolpaths and push the machine, have a look in the attached file.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    <img src="https://ivxo1q-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4mENMmTr_Cabc7pR0FUdB6gtbADq2JbuG4_rGy0eBQvLJx19pTi6TqMUIJN0xgOyDIc0gWoxYhS38HpbSTFGdfaK-o42IOU6jczrhDpfpCOTNGL1X6hvZCbgj0y35gqmq1YGTrWwShYGV-C7lXA2esy0Pi_WfnBSyroDLSGXwce4uSr1U7op7srdi78rispHCa_K4aFlTlJPVkkNWMfgh_Tg?width=60&height=60&cropmode=none" width="60" height="60" />

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  15. #75
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    Thanks, some interesting variations there but ultimately the process time is identical to mine - about 20 minutes

    Will make notes.

    Bending bits of metal in Hertfordshire - https://ddmetalproducts.co.uk


  16. #76
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    Davek,

    HSM has, in the past, been called: "look ahead". I think essentially it has been a way for machine manufacturers to add another charge onto a machine for a feature that's already in the control. I don't fully understand what is or isn't being "changed" in the controller (especially since in most cases a code unlocks the "feature").

    The difference in an something like Fusion's "adaptive clearing" tool path is huge. Without HSM (look ahead), an older machine simply can't process the lines of code fast enough.

    PM



  17. #77
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    Default Re: Hit a snag again :)

    Thanks PM,

    the code is a lot more voluminous for adaptive etc so that does make some sense, Mach3 has got "look ahead" as standard but usually only set for something like 20 lines, i've upped mine to 200 just in case

    I also think bigger machines can take better advantage because of their faster non-cut traverse times, on my slow old girl the cutter is only in the cut for about 50% of the time on adaptive but with pocket/slotting its nearer 100% so could be why she favours old style paths.

    Either way, this is very educational and I'm glad it worked in the end, these parts are now added to my inventory of regular small-batch bits I do

    Bending bits of metal in Hertfordshire - https://ddmetalproducts.co.uk


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