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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi Mactec - See attached dwg for Scoots tool plate dims. Frankies is longer. Scoots is 6mm S304 steel. I use SS as it does not need paint. Poor paint application has upset fits in the past so I don't use it much and SS works out cheaper then black steel painted.

    Fibreglass pultrusion's are not very stiff in torsion so I'd steer away from these. My shed is made from lipped cold formed G450 sections as you describe. I have many offcuts that I look at occasionally and think I could do a machine with them!

    A couple of things. If I use a std section I am limited to that section dims plus I have to get the holes done by a machinist which works out 2x or 3x the cost than laser cut holes. Std cold formed sections have poor dimensional control in terms of a machine build. If I get the section cut and bent I can specify flatness and fits for the critical features so I get what I want. If the part is not made to spec I can take it back and have it reworked or replaced. If I use a std section I can't do this. And the sheet metal parts work out cheaper then std sections drilled so that's the bottom line really. If a Maker buys a std section and drills their own holes that's another story but these parts are production parts so need to be able to be made in volume and to a spec.

    I have recently settled on using 3mm galvanised steel sheet as its the lowest cost stiffest material. So to get thicker then 3mm the parts are laminated. Hence the I-beam for Frankies tool plate. I had it painted to get to the minimum order value & to add some bling, plus ordered some repeat parts for another customer... 3mm would be fine but Frankie is experimental in some areas so that's how it goes. I'm thinking about not bonding the tool plate together and start with the 3mm part to see how it goes, can always double up the part if needed. Onwards to more parts.... Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-shed-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-277-08-6mm-toolplate-jpg  
    Last edited by peteeng; 12-14-2021 at 03:16 PM.


  2. #62
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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi Mactec - See attached dwg for Scoots tool plate dims. Frankies is longer. Scoots 6mm S304 steel. I use SS as it does not need paint. Poor paint application has upset fits in the past so I don't use it much and SS works out cheaper then black steel painted.

    Fibreglass pultrusion's are not very stiff in torsion so I'd steer away from these. My shed is made from lipped cold rolled sections as you describe. I have many offcuts that I look at occasionally and think I'll do a machine with them!

    A couple of things. If I use a std section I am limited to that section dims plus I have to get the holes done by a machinist which works out 2x or 3x the cost than laser cut holes. Std sections have poor dimensional control. If I get the section cut and bent I can specify flatness and fits for the critical features so I get what I want. If the part is not made to spec I can take it back and have it reworked or replaced. If I use a std section I can't do this. And the sheet metal parts work out cheaper then std sections drilled so thats the bottom line really.

    If a hobbyist buys a std section and drills theIr own holes thats another story but these parts are production parts so need to be able to be made in volume and to a spec.
    Yes, that makes sense as you have a lot of holes and 304ss no paint. makes it easy. what is the 10-degree bent edge angle for, is that for clearance. or just ascetic's for how you want it too to look.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi MC - Its a bit of both. Aesthetics, clearance and its not a critical angle. If you spec 90degs they may hit the bend twice to compensate for springback (for a short run, see below) and this will mark the part and run the risk of not having the top be flat. Each medium has subtle rules... Peter

    For 1-3 parts each one will be slightly different as they have to figure out bend settings for springback. if you order 100 parts the first two will go in the bin then they know the settings for the run.... since I order 2 or three parts initially they are always a little different as they figure it out as they go...



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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi All - I mustered a few more parts from the shelves today. Motor mounts, return pulleys and belt clamps. Frankenrouter now has its own project table! its been sharing to date but now needs more space. Better get onto making some parts.... Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-parts-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi All of you in vegemite land. I have been buying vegemite and cheese rolls in Woolies for lunch yum! Anyways I have started back on Frankie and I'm looking at the grillage for the machine base. I've played with "reciprocal" grillages which are easy to build but not as stiff as orthogrids. If I egg crate the grillage this means some material is cut out of the crossing members. I planned on making a big cut out to make assm easier. But this is 30% less stiffness then if I I do a neat cutout. If I glue its mating part into the slot then it recovers its stiffness. There was only 3% difference between the slot and large slot... Since Frankie will not have a lower base part its stiffness will depend on the grillage totally vs a top and bottom sandwich construction. Maybe a diagrid is the go... lets get modelling... Peter all of you have a great Christmas if I don't get back on by then.... be safe, make happiness.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-grillage-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Evening all - I bit the bullet and will make Frankie to take an 8' job and a half sheet 8x4 ie a 8x2ft. So that makes the footprint 2800x850mm. I may sneek it back to 2700mm when more detailing is done. So now to set up a build book and start dwgs. I have been speaking to markforge about a 3D printer for carbon fibre but don't have the justification for $10k AUD at the moment. Thinking of getting a quote for CF 3D printing the saddle on Frankie as an experiment. A quote will sort that. Have a great evening all... Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-frankenrouter-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-frankenrouter-iso-rear-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-frankenrouter-iso-view1-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi All of you in vegemite land. I have been buying vegemite and cheese rolls in Woolies for lunch yum! Anyways I have started back on Frankie and I'm looking at the grillage for the machine base. I've played with "reciprocal" grillages which are easy to build but not as stiff as orthogrids. If I egg crate the grillage this means some material is cut out of the crossing members. I planned on making a big cut out to make assm easier. But this is 30% less stiffness then if I I do a neat cutout. If I glue its mating part into the slot then it recovers its stiffness. There was only 3% difference between the slot and large slot... Since Frankie will not have a lower base part its stiffness will depend on the grillage totally vs a top and bottom sandwich construction. Maybe a diagrid is the go... lets get modelling... Peter all of you have a great Christmas if I don't get back on by then.... be safe, make happiness.
    You have your other router; you can cut out the slots very easy, to be a good fit, others have successfully been making torsion boxes like this for years, skin the bottom and make it even stiffer.

    Have a great Christmas also.: cheers:

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Evening all - I bit the bullet and will make Frankie to take an 8' job and a half sheet 8x4 ie a 8x2ft. So that makes the footprint 2800x850mm. I may sneek it back to 2700mm when more detailing is done. So now to set up a build book and start dwgs. I have been speaking to markforge about a 3D printer for carbon fibre but don't have the justification for $10k AUD at the moment. Thinking of getting a quote for CF 3D printing the saddle on Frankie as an experiment. A quote will sort that. Have a great evening all... Peter
    Markforge had a demo day 2 months ago, that I went to checkout their printers, they worked very well, there price for the machine was over the top, for such a small footprint, had a good feature which was cool, their built-in dryer for the material, the material was sealed in a container to prevent any moisture absorption= better smoother prints, the carbon used a separate spool and had no need to be in the dryer, just the base materials used needed to be dried.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi MC - You get what you pay for. There's considerable development time to get back in production machines (tell me about that !) I have been involved with vacuum forming forever and the most important thing to get right is the plastic is dry and the process temps are right. Same for plastic printing. An enclosed heated machine is very important and a drier is a most have for a commercial machine.

    Understood about torsion boxes but there are two issues I need to address 1) I use a threaded insert bed, this allows dust to fall through the top so if I enclose the cells they will slowly (faster then you think) fill up with dust. I could inset aluminium tracks but threaded inserts hold things better. I feel I'd pull out tracks on some jobs... I've been told I'm a little heavy with the spanner and M8 screws can generate a lot of load...

    2) the bottom skin doubles the weight of the unit so this is a hurdle. The current base weight is 45kg (top 26kg and grillage 19kg ) made from 16mm mdf or ply. 50kg is my max target weight. By the time I add castors or feet I'll be at target weight. I could use 12mm but edge screwing is not as good and 16mm is better for setting a square part... I could fill the grillage with holes so that loses 9kg but adds cost, holes cost $$$....The top could be 12mm that will save 6kg but then the thread insert is not as strong....Everything is a compromise I've looked at using aluminium channel for the grillage but not happy with the bracketry required & cost... Peter Ho Ho Ho to all.



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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Evening All- Today I decided Frankie was far along enough to start on its dwg set and build book. But being a one off and using fast development I didn't stick to my rigorous part numbering and sub assm system. So now I have a jumble of parts and assemblies to deal with. I may have to revert to a primitive organisation or bite the bullet and establish PN's as I go... I'll start the dwg process and see what falls out. Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-f-no7-ga-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Evening All & Sundry - Seems where there's a will there's a way. I started ballooning out the dwgs and realised that the BOMs item number maybe useful here for organising the dwgs. I did some test deletions and additions and it looks like the iIem No once applied stays with the part or assm so no need to add new PNs, yippee. So the build book will be organised by item number vs PN for Frankie... Plus the item no can be included automatically in the part dwg so that's cool... The less typing the better for me...Peter

    Getting close to Xmas - If I don't post here again may Santa look after you all!! Make Happiness... Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-gen-assm-item-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi All - I've set up the dwg stack and now I'm simplifying stuff. I've changed the base, lessened the part count and made it easier to make. The assembly has failed somehow and nearly all the constraints have locked (shown in red!!) ARGGG. So maybe now its time to rebuild... I have to decide how to build the saddle and the gantry. I think the gantry will be an aluminium plywood laminate. The saddle maybe in CSA-UHPC thinking through that one... Waiting impatiently for the plywood warehouse to open. Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-red-1-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-underside-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Evening all and sundry - Been thinking about the saddle and whether to cast it in CSA or laminate it in Aluminium/plywood. Its basic thickness is 40mm so calculated the bending rigidity of 40mm thick in both. The 2mm Al/ply/2mm AL worked out 36% stiffer so that's the go. Also I don't have to make a mould for this. The equivalent thickness in aluminium of the laminate is 33mm so its quite stiff.... So I'll start drawing up the saddle as a laminate. May chuck some carbon in there as well.... Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-rigid-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-saddle-1-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi All- DMK the plywood people are open and I spoke to them about their 0.9mm aluminium skin laminated plywood. They will laminate the 0.9mm skin onto anything they have and the sheet size is 3620x1220mm. So I can make the base and wall with the AL skin. I'm trying to minimise parts and not make complex grillages (torque boxes) So I'll figure what a thick sandwich would be... I have 2mm AL for small parts but DMK have a big flat heated press for doing this sort of thing....Peter



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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi All- DMK the plywood people are open and I spoke to them about their 0.9mm aluminium skin laminated plywood. They will laminate the 0.9mm skin onto anything they have and the sheet size is 3620x1220mm. So I can make the base and wall with the AL skin. I'm trying to minimise parts and not make complex grillages (torque boxes) So I'll figure what a thick sandwich would be... I have 2mm AL for small parts but DMK have a big flat heated press for doing this sort of thing....Peter
    That will be interesting to see how this works out, the parts should be very damp with using the laminated ply like this, can they use / do thicker aluminum skins.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi Mactec 2022 - I seem to remember I asked them this a while ago... Will have to re-ask. Here's their press. Medium term I want to make a flat table to do my own laminations. Probably a cast CSA table then lapped flat. Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-press-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi Mactec 2022 - I seem to remember I asked them this a while ago... Will have to re-ask. Here's their press. Medium term I want to make a flat table to do my own laminations. Probably a cast CSA table then lapped flat. Peter
    Yes, those presses are great, it's always better to do it yourself, sometimes getting there can be the biggest hurdle though.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi All - The al/mdf/al laminate will cost $90/sqm and white MDF costs $20/sqm. Since one of the design rules is spend as less $$$ as possible on Frankie, in this case the plain MDF wins, its doing fine on Scoot. Perhaps the next generation machine that I keep will have the laminate... Peter

    I did look at the numbers and the 0.9/18mm/0.9 is the same bending stiffness as a 13mm thick piece of aluminium which would be good. The laminated base weight would be 32kg so that's good as well. A solid 12mm al base would be 60kg. Need to finalise the base to get it happening...



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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi All - Only Frankie news I have is that I've ordered the controller for it. I sold Brevis#1 this week, so I'm busy rebuilding Brevis#2. Want to get the carbon fibre coupons made asap to see if its a candidate material for Frankie... so many things to do. Peter



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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi All - I've started sealing the CF coupon mould.. Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-cf-mould-seal-jpg  


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