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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi Jayne - I don't think there is a hard and fast rule on the axis dirn. As long as it follows the right hand screw rule. For instance the computer on Scoot 1 was on the side facing Scoot so its Y was along the gantry. On Scoot-S2 its on the side but facing the rear of Scoot so its gantry is in the X dirn. I set up the axis according to how the computer sits so it agrees with controller WYSIWIG. I have not thought about where to put the computer yet on Frankie. I have to build its bench yet, I'd like to use a touchscreen notebook and have it on a stalk at the front.... which means X will be the long dim of the base ie left to right. Y+ will be away from the operator. Peter

    By the way I don't like the black layout of the new UCCNC so I revert it back to the original. Easier to see I feel....

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-uccnc-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi Peter,

    I don't know what the right hand screw rule is as applied to CAD and CNC. I have a distant memory of the right hand rule from the electrical engineering world relating to current flow and electromagnetic forces, but that memory is from a long time ago and faded. lol

    It makes sense for the machine axes to be aligned with what you see on the computer screen, less chance of human error that way. I like the idea of a touch screen mounted on a stalk, I was thinking of doing something molar with my machine. I thought I even had the right computer for the task, it's an old HP laptop with a touchscreen, and the screen flips around so you can close the lid with screen facing out, but something is fried inside and it no longer works. Looking forward to see what you end up doing with Frankie.

    Jayne



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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi Jayne - The axes in CAD and CAM obey the RHS rule. Look at your screen axes and hold up your right hand. Stick your thumb up (Z+), first finger pointing fwd second finger 90deg to first... your first finger is therefore X+ and your second finger is Y+. Left handers like my wife seem to have trouble with taps turning and spanners unturning...

    So do screw threads and electromagnetics work with the RHS rule. I was watching a lecture on quantum mechanics and I don't think it exists there. weird stuff in that space. Peter



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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Quote Originally Posted by JayneV View Post
    Hi Peter,

    I don't know what the right hand screw rule is as applied to CAD and CNC. I have a distant memory of the right hand rule from the electrical engineering world relating to current flow and electromagnetic forces, but that memory is from a long time ago and faded. lol

    It makes sense for the machine axes to be aligned with what you see on the computer screen, less chance of human error that way. I like the idea of a touch screen mounted on a stalk, I was thinking of doing something molar with my machine. I thought I even had the right computer for the task, it's an old HP laptop with a touchscreen, and the screen flips around so you can close the lid with screen facing out, but something is fried inside and it no longer works. Looking forward to see what you end up doing with Frankie.

    Jayne
    There is a right hand coordinate rule, this snip is what is normal for machine coordinate's, the only difference some may use the Y axis +/- reversed

    Yes your Cad has to work with your machine Coordinate's

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-x-y-z-coordinate-system-png   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-g17-g18-g19-x-y-z-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi Jayne - The axes in CAD and CAM obey the RHS rule. Look at your screen axes and hold up your right hand. Stick your thumb up (Z+), first finger pointing fwd second finger 90deg to first... your first finger is therefore X+ and your second finger is Y+. Left handers like my wife seem to have trouble with taps turning and spanners unturning...

    So do screw threads and electromagnetics work with the RHS rule. I was watching a lecture on quantum mechanics and I don't think it exists there. weird stuff in that space. Peter
    For CNC machines it is normally called Right Hand Coordinate's Rule, the Right Hand Screw Rule is a different hand movement, and not normally used to explain a X Y Z Coordinate.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi M54 - Well I'll just call it the right hand rule then to cover the bases. Seems the swiss do it different. Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-swiss-rule-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Gotcha!

    Thank you both for the explanation. I understood the coordinate relationship between CAD and the machine, I just hadn’t associated it with a “right hand rule”.

    Peter, the image of the 200CHF note intrigued me. I wasn’t sure if that was a real note or something that had been photoshopped by someone in the scientific/engineering community for some reason. So I did a google search and sure enough, it is currently in circulation. https://www.snb.ch/en/iabout/cash/se...es9_design_200

    Jayne



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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi all - in high school and uni engineering or maths tests we always knew what question people were up to as they started waving their fingers around to figure out orientations, vectors or curl questions. Was quite a while ago.. Peter



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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi All - I think I'll use the new version of Scoots Z axis on Frankie. I'm ordering some parts and haven't come up to minimum order value so shall put Frankies new Z into that. It will be laminated steel...Deciding early next week when the final quotes come in... Peter



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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi M54 - Well I'll just call it the right hand rule then to cover the bases. Seems the swiss do it different. Peter
    These snips show you the difference and how it is used, there are many Right and Left Hand Rules, some very complicated and confusing, I have never used these terms because they can be misinterpreted.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-right-hand-coordinate-rule-png   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-right-hand-screw-rule-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi M54 - The way I was taught includes both in the same hand position. The extended fingers provide the orientations and the 3rd and forth curled fingers provide the screw rule (mathematically a "curl" as well). This is useful for figuring out cross vectors. But I've never used a cross vector in practice only in exams. My main formal studies where machine design, light structures and advanced materials....But these are always ongoing...Peter

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)



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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi M54 - The way I was taught includes both in the same hand position. The extended fingers provide the orientations and the 3rd and forth curled fingers provide the screw rule (mathematically a "curl" as well). This is useful for figuring out cross vectors. But I've never used a cross vector in practice only in exams. My main formal studies where machine design, light structures and advanced materials....But these are always ongoing...Peter

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)
    The screw rule is normally not incorporated with the coordinate Rule, there is no use for it when relating to coordinates.

    Like I said it can be interpreted any way you want, I was teaching this stuff for some years, to Engineering guys like you. so know how most where always confused with it's use, it really is a primitive way to explain an X, Y, Z, A, B, C. Axis coordinate system. as you can see you run out of fingers anything above 5 axis for one hand, then you have to incorporate the left hand in the mix which then wraps fingers around the axis that they represent, just imagine using this today to teach, would be crazy, it's much easier to draw up, a visual presentation, which is a better way to explain a multi Axis coordinate system.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Morning all & sleepy - Haven't done any FE on Frankie so far so todays the day for some. The Z axis can be made from 6mm steel like Scoot but I plan to use 3mm laminated in future. Waiting for quotes 2x3mm parts vs 1x 6mm stainless steel part. Then I have 2mm sheet aluminium that I want to use up so I could laminate 3x15mm plywood and skin it with 2mm aluminium. So I modelled these to see the diff. The alum laminate is best then the steel laminate then the 6mm SS baseline version. I pushed the Z axis with 1000N about 100kgf to deflect it about 1mm. The steel laminate deflected 0.86mm which is 82% of the baseline design. The al/ply/al deflected 0.768mm which is 72% of the baseline design. But the al/ply/al (lets call it the composite design) is 49mm thick which sticks out quite a way then there's the spindle clamp.... The composite design is very light compared to the steel ones... steel 5.66kg composite 2.88kg but not concerned about weight.. composite would be very damp as well... I'll wait for the quotes to see which way to jump... Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-deflection-1-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-cad-model-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Evening all - I have adjusted Frankies envelope to X700 Y2100 and Z200... I've put my Ozito router on and next is the Z drive. Would be good to stretch it to 2400mm. May bring the X back to 650mm. Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-frankie-1-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-frankie-2-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-front-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Morning All - this mornings work involved getting the Z drive roughly in place. I put a trench in the tool plate but this removes stiffness from the plate. So I'll revert that and trench the saddle. There is a 15mm delta between the ballscrew fittings and the carriage heights that has to be accounted for somehow. I've started putting holes in the washroom floor and yesterday I had a vision of the finish line but I've had that before! But its time to look at vinyl flooring so must be getting closer... Need to finish so I can serious with other machine stuff. Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-frankie-trench-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-shower-drain-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi all - I've trenched the saddle and offset the spindle to improve the X length. I think I have captured all the parts and logic I want to. So I wait to figure out if I go steel Z or composite. Happy with the saddle trench, maybe the saddle can be Tetrium... Once the Z is decided I can rebuild properly at detail level... Better start on Frankies bench! Peter

    edit - heres where I'm up to with the bench - it weighs 1700kg better sort that out. I want a bench that easy to move so needs to be light. No bottom shelves to fill up with stuff...

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-offset-spindle-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-3-4-view-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-saddle-trench-1-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-bench-jpg  



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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi all - I've trenched the saddle and offset the spindle to improve the X length. I think I have captured all the parts and logic I want to. So I wait to figure out if I go steel Z or composite. Happy with the saddle trench, maybe the saddle can be Tetrium... Once the Z is decided I can rebuild properly at detail level... Better start on Frankies bench! Peter

    edit - heres where I'm up to with the bench - it weighs 1700kg better sort that out. I want a bench that easy to move so needs to be light. No bottom shelves to fill up with stuff...
    Does your Bench need a top on it, that would save some weight, attach the frame direct, to the bottom of the machine.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi Mactec - Thought about a stand vs a bench but the bench can do double duty once Frankie is moved along. I'm also thinking about doing it as two benchs that bolt together so I can have two smaller ones to break it down for transport. I got stuck moving Scoot back from the Mens Shed to home as its heavy and now with shutdowns and stuff its hard to find 4 people to lift things when needed so I'm trying to have broken down parts that I can manage myself.... I'll revisit the stand maybe the way to go especially if I stretch it to Y2400. There's a boatbuilder interested in it and he'll want to cut long half sheets... Peter

    one of todays routing jobs was more cleats for the storage. I had run 12 before and varnished them but decided no need to put time into varnish as they aren't seen. finish all of those tomorrow 22 to go. I am liking the battery drill and screws vs the studs for the clamps. Much faster....

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-cleats-2-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-cleats-1-jpg  


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi Mactec - Thought about a stand vs a bench but the bench can do double duty once Frankie is moved along. I'm also thinking about doing it as two benchs that bolt together so I can have two smaller ones to break it down for transport. I got stuck moving Scoot back from the Mens Shed to home as its heavy and now with shutdowns and stuff its hard to find 4 people to lift things when needed so I'm trying to have broken down parts that I can manage myself.... I'll revisit the stand maybe the way to go especially if I stretch it to Y2400. There's a boatbuilder interested in it and he'll want to cut long half sheets... Peter

    one of todays routing jobs was more cleats for the storage. I had run 12 before and varnished them but decided no need to put time into varnish as they aren't seen. finish all of those tomorrow 22 to go. I am liking the battery drill and screws vs the studs for the clamps. Much faster....
    Just remember you have to have more travel then just the 2400, the cutter needs to be able to clear the sheet at both ends. and use a cutter size, that is max for the spindle that will be used.

    If you add lifting points, or use lifting bars / pipes, a roll around Garage engine type hoist, will lift anything you are building, and you can do it by yourself.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter

    Hi M54 - Yes I usually leave 100mm for clamping etc around the envelope. Garage hoists can lift but difficult to then get big things in my van. I'll leave various lifts to customers. Last time I delivered one I asked for photos of the house to check out its situation. Looked good big roller door to garage. Got there and the garage was full of stuff and the router was going to live in a lean to. Had to pull down the Z axis, turn the router on its side and we lifted it through a narrow side gate. Got jammed nearly dropped it and a neighbour came to the rescue very lucky! They get heavy fast...

    So a recap:
    1) Frankie has come together quite quickly. Happy with most details. I would like to reflex the base motor so its inside. Will get to that in time. Other wise all good
    2) Rules are - make as many parts myself as possible, use as many surplus parts as possible, KISS and use up some materials I have
    3) Aims are: use up surplus parts, make a good long router, sell it off then make a big router

    I'd like a one box solution for the controller, looking at this at the moment https://www.makerstore.com.au/product/elec-scxprov5/ will find out if UCCNC can run it. Don't want to get involved in GRBL yet....

    Re - stand/bench maybe a bolted together aluminium stand is the go. Will think more on this. I started designing the bench when Scoot was incomplete now he/she/it is here should design for CNC making vs hand saws...

    Waiting for Z axis quote to come back then decide on that and start detailing... Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Design & Build of Frankenrouter-general-arrangment-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-iso-view-no4-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-saddle-4-jpg   Design & Build of Frankenrouter-reflex-motor-jpg  



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