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  1. #21

    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Dougsshed, I have the same unit - PT6012 that I purchased from Roger Webb / Pacific Tooling. I just sent you a PM , can you please check it out.

    Thanks



  2. #22
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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    We unfortunately bought one of these as well. No earthing either (3 phase machine), I did fit one knowing it needed to be earthed. We did get the phone call from Maria and it has now been checked over, although i wonder how well as those other issues you noted were not found...
    Our machine was damaged on arrival, the cast iron bed support was bent, but no solution from rodger except to remachine the vacuum table, but when told there was not enough material he stopped replying...

    As to the homing/limit switchs, they are at best homing swithces, somehow i was able to jog past one of these and when trying to home or zero the machine it completely ran over the switch, completely destroying it. I replaced it but mounted it so the machine could hit the end stop without destroying another. Had a look at the other axis, same situation, all switches physically in the hardware path... oh by the way that was day 2.
    Ours too was full of swarf. Bolts to short on the x axis supports (one turn of thread engaged) so you may want to check those they are m5 from memory and screw through the x axis verticals into the y axis linear bearings

    Given that this factory builds cnc machines nothing appears to be machined with one! All seems to be hand drilled castings, so if you take something off it will only fit there and only that way around... scary.
    The safety stop switch is a kill switch, apparently the vfd if the spindle is spinning (which is likely if you need to use it) will most likely be destroyed. So think before using it!

    Mach3 has the same licence you have so definitely pirated, I wasn't sure before but you have confirmed that. As to it being set up for the machine... nuh, i have upped the x and y rates heaps, no step skipping yet, even when pushing against the direction of movement, have for now left the acceleration alone.
    Also had to change the safe height setup... went to safe height and it plunged a stationary bit straight into the table, like giant stapler... its still in there, solid carbide, snapped off flush with the surface... nice one rw..
    Think I have learnt more about this machine than I wanted too, having had to modify or fix bits on it.
    Neither the vacuum pump, the cnc machine or the dust extractor came fitted with a power cord. Yes I'm in Aus, so its not like he wouldn't know what plugs were needed.

    So much more I could say....



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    It looks like Roger's at it again - pushing "the Rolls-Royce of CNC's". No mention of Pacific Tooling, but the machines apparently come through Boost.



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry_H View Post
    It looks like Roger's at it again - pushing "the Rolls-Royce of CNC's". No mention of Pacific Tooling, but the machines apparently come through Boost.
    Hi Gerry,

    unless I missed something, I think he is just directing possible buyers to deal directly with Boost. He may may a commission but there's no way to tell. Even if he does, he's taken himself out of the purchasing loop and thus protected himself from liability. I dare say, though, that that means the machines still don't meet standards. Otherwise, he wouldn't mind adding his name to the process.

    Either way, he's not someone that I'd recommend to deal with and nor is Boost.

    Cheers



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Most everything you spoke of is pretty common with importing a Chinese machine. It should be known ahead of time that there will be some issues that the end user will have to sort out.
    1. the machines more than likely will not be grounded.
    2. The Mach3 stuff is not very good, I heard that the controller was a knock off of the real thing and will be buggy.
    3. The software licenses will be hacked copies that are several years old and all seem to be registered to the same name, regardless of which company assembled it.
    4. you'll only get one limit switch per axis but that really isn't an issue with setting up soft stops.
    5. There will be some damage to the machine somewhere but it is usually more cosmetic and minor.
    6. The "seller" does not work for the company. He simply is a go between for a commission.

    The first thing that I did to my machine is rip out all of the Mach3 crap and replace it with a different brand. I chose Centroid Acorn so it was pretty reasonably priced and will operate much better in the long run. I've had mine for quite awhile and it is really a good machine once you take care of a couple of small issues. Once you get over the initial sting of your issues and get to really start getting it dialed in you will like it. I've been on forums for more expensive machines and seen the problems that buyers sometimes experience when they get them in and they all seem to have some issue to take care of and aren't put together quite as well as you would think.



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Quote Originally Posted by milo30 View Post
    Most everything you spoke of is pretty common with importing a Chinese machine. It should be known ahead of time that there will be some issues that the end user will have to sort out.
    1. the machines more than likely will not be grounded.
    2. The Mach3 stuff is not very good, I heard that the controller was a knock off of the real thing and will be buggy.
    3. The software licenses will be hacked copies that are several years old and all seem to be registered to the same name, regardless of which company assembled it.
    4. you'll only get one limit switch per axis but that really isn't an issue with setting up soft stops.
    5. There will be some damage to the machine somewhere but it is usually more cosmetic and minor.
    6. The "seller" does not work for the company. He simply is a go between for a commission.

    The first thing that I did to my machine is rip out all of the Mach3 crap and replace it with a different brand. I chose Centroid Acorn so it was pretty reasonably priced and will operate much better in the long run. I've had mine for quite awhile and it is really a good machine once you take care of a couple of small issues. Once you get over the initial sting of your issues and get to really start getting it dialed in you will like it. I've been on forums for more expensive machines and seen the problems that buyers sometimes experience when they get them in and they all seem to have some issue to take care of and aren't put together quite as well as you would think.
    I understand all of that.....now. That doesn't detract from the deceit in this process.
    1. One has a reasonable right to expect that the machine will be electrically safe. The fact that this, apparently, is often not the case doesn't change that.
    2. & 3. None of Roger Webb's paperwork/advertising made any mention that I would be getting pirated or substandard licences and components. Again, the fact that this, apparently, is often the case doesn't change the reasonable expectation that what is offered will be what you get. Roger at no time said 'You'll get pirated copies of software.' He used brand names and unless he specifies pirated copies, he should supply genuine software.
    4. I accept that.
    5. I accept that.....sort of. I'm still convinced that some parts were second hand. That is most definitely not acceptable.
    6. Roger Webb told me, in writing, that he owned Pacific Tooling. He lied.

    So, I hear what you are telling me and I understand that this might be clear to someone used to dealing this way. But for me, with no experience, this all left a very sour taste in my mouth and I should not have had to go through what I did. It is also easy to say that you ripped out all the crap and replaced it. I'm not confident enough to do this and so I still haven't used my 4th axis because it doesn't work and I don't know why. It should be plug and play. This is what Roger promised. Of course, he won't help. Even when we were on talking terms, he gave very little help and often what he said was downright wrong. Even I knew that.



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    Default

    I didn't mean to sound like I was saying that you should have known. I meant to confirm your statements so that others will learn from the posts and know what to expect



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    It's not Mach3 that is the crap; it is the Chinese controller which does not handle all of the g-code instructions which Mach3 uses. The use of an old pirated copy does not help of course. Yes, we have been here before - many times.

    Cheers
    Roger (Caffin, not Webb!)



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Quote Originally Posted by milo30 View Post
    I didn't mean to sound like I was saying that you should have known. I meant to confirm your statements so that others will learn from the posts and know what to expect
    Not a problem....I misunderstood where you were coming from.



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Hi.....my 2 cents worth as I have been down this path too but not been bitten.

    I bought a CNC mill some years ago from Skyfire.com...…...very happy with the purchase so no more to be said.

    After reading the lengthy exposé of Roger Rabbit I am amazed it went on to such a degree, but as you are a direct importer and rascally Roger was just a commission puller you can only rest with the knowledge that those local people that are in the business to import machinery from afar are in the same boat only they are in the import business as an occupation and have expertise to do so.....that means they have contacts to get recommendations from those that are promoting or actually making and selling machinery.

    Trying to save a few buck by direct importing is like playing with fire in a haystack if you don't know the people you are going to land a wad of dough on.

    Ian.



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Dougsshed,

    Totally relate to your experience having been through a similar exercise.
    As an aside, I had ordered a CNC machine via China and about 2 weeks after placing the order requested to add a 4th axis. They assured me "no problems" but upon delivery, they supplied the physical 4th axis (an extremely heavy steel [with imperial measurements] plate fitted with supported round rails, rotary table and a metal lathe chuck (for a CNC router!)) left quite free to slide around but no electronics hardware to support/drive it. After some to-and-fro it was eventually sorted out.

    My 4th axis is still not connected - I'm waiting until I can afford to replace the RichAuto controls with an AXBB setup so I can use Ethernet with UCCNC but I do kinda like the RichAuto DSP even with its limitations.


    I also had the issues of unlicensed software as well as ArtCam v2008 - sounds like all Chinese machines are all built in the same factory from the same picking slip :-)

    On a different note:

    "I'm not confident enough to do this and so I still haven't used my 4th axis because it doesn't work and I don't know why. It should be plug and play."

    Start a new thread about your 4th axis and let's see if we can help you get it going.

    Some pictures and such would be of great help.


    Cheers,

    Harry E.
    ===



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    OK guys, I see this has been resurrected...

    Who is Boost? website?

    I have my own business now, lets be real how many people what an imported CNC router? I am currently looking at bringing in a few machines, but they will not be getting sold until they have received my satisfaction.



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    …..and the wheel will come full circle and you will be the wipping boy to trouble shoot the machine once it gets sent to the buyer...…...that is unless you personally deliver the machine and set it up and do the first commissioning to show that it works as advertised......too bad if a week later something you never though of fails and you get called out again......for free.

    Of course there will be a price increase due to you having to remove parts that don't quite live up to your high standards...….in the end the price will reflect the same machine made in the USA and supplied by a local builder who has recommendations from other people.

    The main question is.....can you give a warranty that actually means what it says and for how long?

    You would in reality be selling a second hand machine not really brand new still in the box etc.

    Could you guarantee EVERY single part in the machine build and the integrity of it's alignment?
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    …..and the wheel will come full circle and you will be the wipping boy to trouble shoot the machine once it gets sent to the buyer...…...that is unless you personally deliver the machine and set it up and do the first commissioning to show that it works as advertised......too bad if a week later something you never though of fails and you get called out again......for free.

    Of course there will be a price increase due to you having to remove parts that don't quite live up to your high standards...….in the end the price will reflect the same machine made in the USA and supplied by a local builder who has recommendations from other people.

    The main question is.....can you give a warranty that actually means what it says and for how long?

    You would in reality be selling a second hand machine not really brand new still in the box etc.

    Could you guarantee EVERY single part in the machine build and the integrity of it's alignment?
    Ian.
    Exactly why i have been delaying in building and selling equipment...



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Hi Ian,

    Just a bit on my background... I am a fitter & turner by trade and have been in the CNC / Machinery maintenance, repairs & installations for over 10 years as a technician. What I am trying to do is provide Australian's a level of service which is expected in this industry - weather it be a home hobby machine or a industrial machine. At present I have 2 other technicians whom I work closely with, one with mechatronics electrical degree with 30 years industry experience and the other who is a a mechanical engineer, similar to myself who has over 20 years experience.

    I have been working with a supplier for many years getting parts for machines around the country, now we feel there is a need to import machines which are cost effective yet of high quality. Once we get going, our machines will come with warranties which are required by law in Australia. Every machine will be sold as new machines - as they have not entered a hobby or production environment. As the market reflects, customers demand that they are fully covered & that the warranties with the good they purchase stand up - and that is what we plan to achieve. At the end of the day, when it comes to hobby machines especially, word of mouth is key & you have to do it right to be successful.

    Pure and simple, I have purely just asked if there are people who want machines, what machines.

    As for quality and alignment, you get what you pay for 100%. Take for example a standard 2500 x 1300 production machine, a machine which costs a buyer 40k will have a difference between a machine which is 120K. What must happen is transparency with the customer, I don't have a sales background, so I'm not going to feed you a load, do the deal and run away into the sunset... were going to be apart of your experience all the way.

    Cheers Ryan



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    You mean you import a machine with a high tech capability, put it through it's paces to see if it performs...…..polish it up and add a decent mark up to make a buck?

    Why not just do the importing and stocking, do a test run, add a bit then sell it on, if it has a problem you fix it first..........for most people the most difficult part is to buy a machine they haven't seen, pay money up front and hope it works when it eventually arrives.

    Or....buy the machine in parts and do the assembly here.....that way you are fully aware of the individual build quality, or lack of, and can take it up with the supplier as a component replacement before the machine pisses the customer off by being completely dead from a simple component failure.

    That way the customer gets to see and touch the actual machine they can buy right now, and if the machine goes pear shaped in the warranty period you can step in at a moments notice and do the necessary to make it work again......nothing like having someone at the end of a phone to call on when you really need them.

    I would expect that if I paid 40K for a machine I saw on the showroom floor it would have to be running right out of the box when I got it home.

    BTW.....I'm a time served fitter and turner too, started in 1958, so I know that no machinery is perfect until it's adjusted and settles down, and customers possibly would want to have an operator working the machine so anything can go wrong.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Ian, the build on these Chinese machines are usually not too bad, its the finishing off that lets them down other than the electronics. A full welded steel frame and solid gantry is always going to be better than an alloy bolted together machine. Its all about the manufacturer, after seeing and dealing with Chinese machines for years now, I have no hesitation to buy the machines and sell them. Failure is usually due to wiring of the components and controller...

    You are 100% right, yes I can stock a machine which is straight from china using all Chinese parts, but that cant be sold at the rate of a machine which undergo's upgrades. It all gets down to the customers wallet or if they re financing the machine. We will try to tailor them individually, for example someone might want an offline control system, someone might be happy using mach3 but want servos, we are happy to provide a machine which the customer wants.

    You are obviously an older guy and that said with no disrespect either but you know a business needs to profit for it to survive. Why have you come on the attack straight from the get go? I would of thought this would be a welcome thing amongst the Australian community?

    The other thing we have and can do for people is fix up there purchased chinese machines.

    So I actually found Roger Webb's latest videos "Rolls Royce", he is now promoting software which he uses in his videos which costs $12k (i'm the first to admit i'm not sure if that's USD or AUD) but surely he must know the standard hobby user cant afford that. Now just to clarify, I havn't met or spoken Roger nor am I affiliated to him any way shape or form.

    Last edited by mrgame1988; 02-29-2020 at 04:23 PM.


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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Is it the same Roger Webb who makes longwinded YouTube videos titled clickbait things like "CNC Router carving $2500 bald eagle"?



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Same fella



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    Default Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgame1988 View Post
    Ian, the build on these Chinese machines are usually not too bad, its the finishing off that lets them down other than the electronics. A full welded steel frame and solid gantry is always going to be better than an alloy bolted together machine. Its all about the manufacturer, after seeing and dealing with Chinese machines for years now, I have no hesitation to buy the machines and sell them. Failure is usually due to wiring of the components and controller...

    You are 100% right, yes I can stock a machine which is straight from china using all Chinese parts, but that cant be sold at the rate of a machine which undergo's upgrades. It all gets down to the customers wallet or if they re financing the machine. We will try to tailor them individually, for example someone might want an offline control system, someone might be happy using mach3 but want servos, we are happy to provide a machine which the customer wants.

    You are obviously an older guy and that said with no disrespect either but you know a business needs to profit for it to survive. Why have you come on the attack straight from the get go? I would of thought this would be a welcome thing amongst the Australian community?

    The other thing we have and can do for people is fix up there purchased chinese machines.

    So I actually found Roger Webb's latest videos "Rolls Royce", he is now promoting software which he uses in his videos which costs $12k (i'm the first to admit i'm not sure if that's USD or AUD) but surely he must know the standard hobby user cant afford that. Now just to clarify, I havn't met or spoken Roger nor am I affiliated to him any way shape or form.
    Hi, no offence meant or high criticism for no real reason...…...my opinion is that when someone else has a large input in your business plan you will be always be subject to inadvertent changes in the base component supply chain.

    This is so very true in the car industry....you buy a car and find that this years latest rendition..... ….almost the same model and design as last years one......now has components that differ from what you are familiar with mainly due to the manufacturer finding a more advantageous way to shave the cost of the car before it's sold.

    I suppose you could stipulate with the Chinese supplier that the machine you are contracting for will always be exactly as it was on the plan or as the first one was.....this would be highly unlikely, as the machine builder probably is making for a broader market than just one buyer and the component make-up is what makes the profit.

    What you cannot control is that components do change and the machine builder is in the same boat as they source their components from another supplier and do not make them themselves.....who makes their own servo motors, linear rails and ballscrews etc.

    At the same time, you are relying on the machine supplier you are dealing with and have confidence in being able to stay in business long enough to satisfy your needs...….they may be shooting on a tightrope and you will not know what problems they have to keep going.

    In that case you would be having a couple of suppliers to fill your needs......that is quite a catalogue of confidence for a complete machine costing mega bucks.

    I think it's a good idea to get into the field you propose, the man on the spot, have tools will travel etc, China is a long way away and an abrupt machine issue in this neck of the woods can mean weeks + of lost production if a customer lacks the resource to troubleshoot their problem and fix it.

    BTW.....just as a matter of interest, I purchased off the plan, a CNC mill from a Chinese suppler and builder, Skyfire.com, and as it was a virtual start up enterprise there were a few hiccups along the way which put delivery, after cash up front, to 2 years......but I had extreme confidence in the machine design and as it was also bespoke in many areas was patient to stand the waiting time......that was in 2013 and delivery occurred in 2015.

    This is the risk I encountered when I did direct importing as an individual and without any experience in that field.
    Ian.



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