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n5jjr
03-24-2005, 04:06 PM
G&L Mill with Acramatic 2100 controller

been getting intermittent Spindle Drive Fault error for 12 to 18 months.
Started when W dirve motor got coolant in it. Motor has been replaced but
no change in errors.

Anyone have ideas about what could be causing error?

Thanks,

Mike

Al_The_Man
03-24-2005, 05:01 PM
What kind of spindle controller is fitted? Some machines were fitted with a VFD so there should be a error code on the spindle unit.
Al

n5jjr
03-27-2005, 08:46 PM
Thanks for the reply, Al!

I don't know what kind of spindle controller is fitted. I am new to CNC maintenance but will try to find out Monday.

More information:

The fault happens when the mill is in transition between steps, such as pulling back from the work for a tool change, etc., not while actually milling (cutting on the part).

The W axis motor moves the table toward or away from the head. After more thought, I expect the problems with the W axis motor don't have anything to do with the Spindle Drive Fault - just happened to start at the same time.

I did more research after posting my first message here. The expanded Spindle Drive Fault message says, in part:
PLC input 100.00/18
Elec. Schem Line 4104

On digging into the manuals, on Sheet 41 (probably no significance that it was on sheet 41), between 4104 and 4106 in the left margin, I found:


S-DRV/TB1 LINE 1312<------ 18 18->>-->>-18 100:00/18 DI_SDRV_NF

I substituted a few characters and made a few other compressions in the above to try to make it fit this format.
The "---" is actually straight lines in the manual.

There is "1018" just above the line going from "1312" to thie first "18", which appears to mean that line is "1018".

The first two "18"s, going from left to right, are in a skinny vertical box, going from the top of the page to the bottom, labeled "40TB". There are many similar connections apparently going through that box.

Also there is what looks like a screw head, that is a circle with a diagonal line in it, just to the left of the first "18" I showed. I believe all this means the signal in question goes through terminal 18 of 40TB. What do you think?

The third "18" and everything to the right of it are in another tall, not so skinny box with:
"CMDH I/O #1
Rack: 0 Card: 0
J1 Contact Signal Name"
at the top.

From that, I take it that the signal comes from or goes to Input/Output card #1 located in the CMDH (whatever that is) and it goes through J1 pin 18. I don't know what "100-00/18" means. I also don't know what "DI_SDRV_NF" means but think this must be an important clue to the problem. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Thanks again!

Mike

n5jjr
03-28-2005, 02:14 PM
Have looked at all connections, etc. All looked clean, tight, and in good condition. No change in problem.

The Spindle Drive Controller is a Quantum III unit. The Quantum III was displaying a flashing "Et" on the top line and a solid "triP" on the 2nd line. The Drive Ready LED to the right of the display was flashing and the Zero Speed LED was on solid. No other LEDs were on. The trip code was 102 - external trip. Also had a 10.23 = 1 - RO Speed Loop Saturated.

We swapped the I/O cards on the Acramatic. From left to right on the Acramatic, the plug-in boards are Servo (DV5) with the plugs on the front. They look like 9-pin connectors but after taking one off I found it was actually a 15 pin connector. Same outside dimensions as a 9 pin but with more pins. The next 2 cards going right are both I/O (CMHD) cards. They looked identical and Nate, the full-time tech here said they were. That didn't change the problem.

We are wondering if the Quantum III is probably sending a fault to the Acramatic.

Nate and I were talking about general signal flows. We think the Acramatic "talks with" the Quantum III, which sends drive to the spindle and reads the speed of the spindle from the tach. Does that sound correct?

Nate said the error comes up while the operator is gone on break sometimes. It did that today, during the lunch break, while the machine was sitting idle.

Thanks again,

Mike

Al_The_Man
03-28-2005, 05:00 PM
Do you have the manual for the Quantum III? I would assume the fault is an external trip which is programmable on the drive, maybe this originates from the PLC, the spindle drive does talk to the acramatic spindle speed and feedback like up-to-speed and zero speed is usually read from the Quantum III.
I am not all that familiar with that particualr set up, so I don't know wether I can help much.
Al

trubleshtr
03-28-2005, 06:49 PM
I did more research after posting my first message here. The expanded Spindle Drive Fault message says, in part:
PLC input 100.00/18
Elec. Schem Line 4104

PLC input 100.00/18 appears to be an address in the Dm of the PLC used for inputs from the real world ie. sensors ect.



On digging into the manuals, on Sheet 41 (probably no significance that it was on sheet 41), between 4104 and 4106 in the left margin, I found:


S-DRV/TB1 LINE 1312<------ 18 18->>-->>-18 100:00/18 DI_SDRV_NF

I substituted a few characters and made a few other compressions in the above to try to make it fit this format.
The "---" is actually straight lines in the manual.



I would interpret that as follows,

Spindle-drive/table1(setup parameters for the drive to controll the spindle, or parameter waiting for input from the spindle or parameter outputing to the PLC, which I suspect it is) line 1312 is probably refering to where the parameters are located in the set-up page in your controller.
The 1018 I would suspect is the wire number you would find going from the 'device' in the spindle to the electrical panel to the board(device) labeled 40TB.




The first two "18"s, going from left to right, are in a skinny vertical box, going from the top of the page to the bottom, labeled "40TB". There are many similar connections apparently going through that box.

The third "18" and everything to the right of it are in another tall, not so skinny box with:
"CMDH I/O #1
Rack: 0 Card: 0
J1 Contact Signal Name"
at the top.

From that, I take it that the signal comes from or goes to Input/Output card #1 located in the CMDH (whatever that is) and it goes through J1 pin 18. I don't know what "100-00/18" means. I also don't know what "DI_SDRV_NF" means but think this must be an important clue to the problem. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Thanks again!

Mike

The skinney box represents a real item in the elect. panel ie. a I/O board The CMHD I/O is just that a 'input/output board.
TO summize you have a device of some sort (temp switch, sensor of some kind ect...) in the spindle. It appears to be hooked into a drive/axis card, which looks at the info from the device in the spindle, compares it to the parameters set in the drive/axis mod.. whatever wanna call it,and sets a condition to the PLC. In this case, passes this digital input signal to input # 18 of rack 0 card 0 of the plc. They have identified this incoming signal at terminal #18 as "100:00/18 DI_SDRV_NF"
100= input(Is this an Omron PLC???)
:00=rack 0 card 0 (hence the :00)
/18= bit #18 (terminal number 18 where the wire is physically attached)
DI = Digital input ( asignal coming into the plc, which means it was an output from another device....i.e. your mystery device in the spindle)
I would interpret SDRV_NF as further reference to the actual mystery device in the spindle in an abreviated short form....ie. SpindleDrive RV_NF.

do you have info on the spindle? what is inside it? what it is capable of doing/monitoring. Is there a fault code table for the plc or spindle drive to further show which device in the spindle has gone off?

MetLHead
03-29-2005, 07:27 AM
Mike,

I've installed a few of the Quantum III drives and I happen to have a manual for it. The alarm you're getting, like Al said, is an external trip. This is usually wired to a thermal switch on the motor, but that's up to whoever wired it. If you look at the bottom of the drive, you should see a board with a 25 pin screw terminal block on it. The external trip input defaults to pin 4 of this block. You need to have 120vac between pin 4 and pin 25 to turn off this alarm. Pin 1 is 120vac, so the external trip circuit should come from pin 1, go through the thermal switch or whatever, and go back into pin 4.

Hope this helps,
Scott

HillBilly
03-29-2005, 08:07 AM
If this is a DC spindle with a field I would check the field weakening during idle. It usually reduces the field to 50% voltage and if not working would heat up the motor causing the thermal to trigger during non-operation periods.

Darek

n5jjr
03-29-2005, 09:06 AM
I think Al The Man hit the nail on the head. I now believe an external trip is causing the Quantum III to trip, which sends the Spindle Drive Fault to the Acramatic. Thanks to Scott for sending more on what Al sent. This will help me loads on tracing down exactly where the problem is, I am sure.

Thank you, trubleshtr, for taking the time to explain the terminology. Does anyone know where there is a web page or book or something where I can get a list of the symbols used in schematics, etc. for CNC machinery? I am quite familiar with electronics schematics for things like computer and radio stuff but not all the electro-mechanical things common in CNC schematics.

Thanks, Darek, but I believe it's an AC spindle.

Thanks again to everyone!

Mike

Al_The_Man
03-29-2005, 09:11 AM
Try this for starters, also a book on PLC control may help with internal logic and external control methods http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drawing/Electical_Control_symbols.html
The NFPA also publish a booklet entitled Electrical Standards For Industrial Machinery.
Al

n5jjr
03-29-2005, 09:14 AM
Thanks, Al!

Boy, am I enjoying this forum and all the help everyone offers!

It is making my entry into CNC maintenance SO much easier!!!

Mike

trubleshtr
03-29-2005, 07:55 PM
How did you make out?

n5jjr
03-29-2005, 10:39 PM
Round and round. We thought the Square D emergency stop relay system (apparently a microprocessor controlled solid state device) was sending an external trip to the Quantum III spindle drive, cauising it to give an external trip error, which was causing the Spindle Fault Error on the opreator's screen. There is a solid state switch in one of the 2 circuits that I thought might be opening, maybe on command from the computer or maybe the emergency stop relay system was faulty. I saw an LED indication on the front of the emergency stop relay that indicated the circuit with the solid state switch go out just before the relay's output went off, causing the Quantum to trip, and at about the same time, there was a Spindle Drive Fault on the operator's screen. SO - - - a little later, with the system up, I pulled the fuse in the solid state relay. The emergency stop relay's LED for that circuit went out, then the output LED went out too, and the Quantum tripped, but no Spindle Drive Fault on the operator's screen. Wondering if the computer is turning off the solid state switch, causing the emergency stop relay to go off, tripping the Quantum. Wondering what could be making the computer do that.

n5jjr
03-30-2005, 10:10 AM
29 March - found an E-Stop switch with intermittent resistance of 40 to 70 ohms when in the run poisitio. Will replace that as soon as part is in. Think that could be it?

There are 2 solid state switches that are apparently controlled by the computer, one comes from the DO_PLC_RDY signal on the CMDH I/O #1 card. They are in series with the loops with the E-STOP and limit switchesSwapped them with spares - no change.

The ESR 1 relay, a Square D Safety Relay Base Module and Expansion Module watches the loops with the E-STOP and limit switches and solid state switches mentioned above. I was watching the LEDs on ESR 1 when a Spindle Drive Fault showed up on the Operator. The LED for Input A, that has the E-STOP swithches and the limit switches, went out, then the OUT LED went out.

After changing a few things, decided problem might be the ESR 1 or the high resistance in an E-STOP switch but maybe neither.

We are thinking the controller might be causing the problem because the Spindle Drive Fault does not show up on the screen when I broke (put an open in) the string with the limit switches (I only did that once). The LEDs on ESR1 looked like they should with the string broken and the Quantum III showed an External Trip but the Spindle Drive Fault message did not show up that time.

Can anybody tell me what could cause the Spindle
Drive Fault message on the Operator Panel screen?

Mind boggler!!!!

Mike

trubleshtr
03-30-2005, 08:19 PM
Hi,
I would think that external trip is just a generic alarm. The details are what is important.
The error 102 Et 10.??? should be investigated further, Your spindle drive has shut down for some reason, sending an outputted signal through TB (terminal block) and to input #18 on the PLC, which has been identified as DI_SDRV_NF. Digital input from spindle drive at location #18. The "NF" could mean not found,not functioning, also a generic alarm. So that points us back at the Error codes on the drive that needs further explaing.
Either the drive is faulty,
not set-up correct,
wires from spindle to drive are damaged or
spindle itself (or something inside it) is damaged.
Your "process enable" seems to drop out and that can be the same as a E-stop/limit switch going off, because you want your automation to stop upon receiveing the message that something has gone wrong.

You say it happens when you back off after cutting? Perhaps the spindle drive is having a hard time controlling the RPM as it momintarily accelerates when the load is removed from the cutter?
If you had coolant in the old motor, there is possibilty the drive and wires were pulling excessive amps at one point and some damage has occured that way too?
Is there a way to swap drives or cables with another spindle or machine?

n5jjr
03-31-2005, 09:26 AM
Hi,

Thanks for all the great responses.

Darek, I was wrong, it IS a DC controller. I'll check into your thoughts if the current ideas don't work out.

Right now, we think the most probable cause is something to do with the NF signal going from the Quantum III spindle controller to the Acramaitc. I opened that line at a TB and was able to duplicate the problem. The next step is to check the 24V coming to pin 15 on the AC Interface Board for intermittency, then jumper around that relay Terminal 15 to 16 to see if that stops the faults if the 24 volts looks OK.

The External Trip message happens after the NF signal trips because the Acramatic sends a shut down back to the Quantum through a solid state swithch and the ESR 1 safety relay system. I figure the Quantum would show an error besides the Ext Trip if it was actually "intending" to send the NF to the Acramatic. I figure it must be either:
1. Wiring associated with the NF signal
2. A problem in the Quantum III
3. A hardware problem in the Acramatic
4. A software problem in the Acramatic

I have previously swapped the two I/O boards in the Acramatic. That didn't change anything.

I'll try to update when the problem is really fixed.

Thanks again!

Mike