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View Full Version : Finally begining my 06 build after 3 + years



Tripton
05-24-2009, 05:28 AM
Well, it's been over 3 years since I purchased Joes kit and most of the hardware. First my mother got sick (I'm the only sibling in town so I took care of her) and passed away. Next my father got sick and passed away. Then I got married to the most high maintenance, emotionally unstable woman on the planet so I was still forced to keep the project on the back burner. Now I find myself with some extra time on my hands. You guessed it...I filed for divorce (on my birthday no doubt). So here I go again.

Please bare with me as I'm sure I will be asking some questions that have been answered numerous times on the zone but there are so many more posts now than 3 years ago. I can't believe how much the site has grown since then. I think the first thing I am wondering is:

1. What is the best glue to use for mdf?
2. Joe mentioned that he used a brad nailer on the torsion boxes. Is that just on the top and bottom skins or is it diagnally through the ribs of the boxes.

I am sure these questions have been asked and answered and hopefully as this progresses I will get more competent with the search engine.

Many thanks in advance for any assistance you guys render. I am most appreciative.

Trip

MrWild
05-24-2009, 05:51 AM
1. Gorilla Glue is by far the best glue out there. It uses a small amount of moisture to kick, then foams to fill all gaps.

2. All a brad nailer does is hold the parts in place while the glue dries. I doubt very much brads add much extra strength.

Had a high maintenance gal myself. It seems this personality is usually attached to the Lookers with fantastic bodies. Sadly, all too often pretty = poison.

Tripton
05-24-2009, 06:43 AM
lol. Yeah undoubtably a "looker with a fantastic body", 16 years and 70 iq points my junior, but hey, I'm not bitter or anything. I'm just glad to be back in the good company of all the zoners.

Thanks for the glue suggestion MW. I'll go out this morning and pick up some Gorilla Glue. So you think I can forego the brads? Also I can't seem to find 1/4" mdf in anything other than 2'x4' locally. Would it be detrimental to the x axis torsion box if I were to seam the top and bottom skins by using 2 pieces per side?

Now if I can just find what she did with my Hitachi router, steppers and controller board and bearings as well as the plastic from Joe's kit.
Thanks,
Trip

BobF
05-24-2009, 11:30 AM
I disagree on the Gorilla glue. TightBondIII for me.
Gorilla glue makes an awful mess and cleanup is horendous. There is no gain for the pain in my opinion.

ger21
05-24-2009, 11:41 AM
Gorilla glue has a much longer working time than Titebond. This has advantages and disadvantages. For a torsion box, having more time to clamp or screw the skins down before the glue sets can be very helpful. For other parts, having to wait an hour for the glue to set can be a hindrance.

And I wouldn't use Gorilla glue for it's gap filling abilities, either. It'll basically fill the gaps with foam, which isn't very strong. It works best with tight fitting joints. I like to use it in tight fitting joints, where Titebond can actually make it harder to get the parts together before the glue sets. Gorilla glue almost acts like a lubricant, helping tight fitting joints go together.

MrWild
05-24-2009, 12:06 PM
USE gloves with this glue. I have a box of silicone exam gloves. As this is a Joe2006 kit we are talking about, the gaps aren't really gaps. If you get this stuff on you, you will see why I suggest silicone gloves and old clothes. It don't come off.

ger21
05-24-2009, 12:23 PM
Laquer thinner will take it off.

Tripton
05-24-2009, 12:38 PM
Thanks guys for all the great information. After I called menards and they told me they carried 1/4" mdf but only in 2'x4' sections I drove up only to find they had no 1/4 mdf at all. We also have a Lowes but they don't carry it either. Any suggestions for an alternate material for the x axis torsion box skins? They had 1/2 " mdf but it looks like crap. It does not even look like the same material that Joe uses in his kit. I wish I could find something already cut to 24" wide because my table saw is not really designed to cut full sheets. I did pick up some Gorilla wood glue from HF while I was out.

Also is it best to just glue the ribs together first or should I glue the bottom skin on at the same time I glue the ribs?

BobF
05-24-2009, 04:59 PM
Use the pipes to help align the torsion box. Lay out all your clamps and dry fit everything first. If you have some long square clamps like K-body use them to help keep all square.
Here is link to my build and glue up.
http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43485&page=3
glue up starts at post 31

BobF
05-24-2009, 05:04 PM
Titebond III has more open time than the other titebond glues. It is also more water resistant, but it cleans up with water prior to drying. Their site lists open time as 10-15 minutes vs 5-10 for their other glues.

jmerson
05-24-2009, 07:07 PM
Bob,
I was just killing some time and noticed your post on projects and did some snooping. Is MDF anything that a sign shop would use for a substraight? My son has a sign shop and uses MDO for some of his work. I like metal myself.
Jim

Tripton
05-25-2009, 04:21 AM
Use the pipes to help align the torsion box. Lay out all your clamps and dry fit everything first. If you have some long square clamps like K-body use them to help keep all square.
Here is link to my build and glue up.
http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43485&page=3
glue up starts at post 31

Thanks Bob. Looks like a great build. So, do we have a general concensus for an alternative material for the torsion box skins? If I go with 1/2" birch ply, would there be any detrimental effects? The only other material I have local access to would be 1/4" hardboard. I'm not thinking hardboard would be durable enough for this type of setup. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Eventually I am going to have to get some mdf but what they have locally is crap. It looks rough and it crumbles when you touch the edges and corners. There is a HD just over an hour away but will their quality be any better than Lowes or Menards? Is there an online source for quality mdf? I would think shipping would kill though.

BobF
05-25-2009, 08:06 AM
Tripton,
1/2" birch ply will work for a skin, but you may want to use 1/4". I say that because you probably don't want to use the ply as a spoil board. You will need to add a layer of MDF to act as spoil board. If you have a traditional lumber yard, or a sign shop or cabinet shop in the area, they may have some. They can probably tell you who in the area has quality material. If they order theirs from a distant yard, they may add a sheet or 2 to the next order for you.
You want something you can surface with the machine to make sure it is level with the machines travel. I used 3/4" MDF because that is what I had. Useing thicker material means I either loose a little Z travel, or have to surface it down to original dimension.

jmerson,
MDO is medium density overlay and used a lot in sign making. It can have a plywood or mdf core and has an overlay layer that can be brown kraft paper, or other materials. It is usually made with glues that stand up better to outdoor environments. MDF is generally not suitable for outdoors. It doesn't like to get wet, and some will just disintegrate.
MDO could probably be used in construction of a machine like joes2006, but I haven't seen one. I believe it costs more than MDF, but I have purchased any.

Tripton
05-25-2009, 08:47 AM
Tripton,
1/2" birch ply will work for a skin, but you may want to use 1/4". I say that because you probably don't want to use the ply as a spoil board. You will need to add a layer of MDF to act as spoil board. If you have a traditional lumber yard, or a sign shop or cabinet shop in the area, they may have some. They can probably tell you who in the area has quality material. If they order theirs from a distant yard, they may add a sheet or 2 to the next order for you.
You want something you can surface with the machine to make sure it is level with the machines travel. I used 3/4" MDF because that is what I had. Useing thicker material means I either loose a little Z travel, or have to surface it down to original dimension.

Thanks again Bob. I never even thought about approaching a sign company. That's brilliant. I checked the phone book and there appears to be a small handfull of sign companies here. It does look like most of them are geared more towards banners and plastic but I will call anyway. You never know. They will probably be closed today since it's a holiday but will try anyway. These might be good contacts anyway considering the nature of my project.

On a side note: I just checked out the price of VCarve. Holy Cow! $600 just for the one program. That is going to hurt as I am working with a small budget...ya know divorce and all. I still have to buy my 1/4" threaded rod. I guess I'll have to wait for Fastenall to open tomaorrow. I know one of the sales reps so hopefully he'll sell to me. My employer has an account with them so worse case scenario is I'll just run the order through them.

I'll post some pics when I am just a little farther along.

Thanks again,
Trip

Tripton
05-25-2009, 03:13 PM
Well I found what she did with my steppers and controller board even found a capacitor that I don't remember buying. Still looking for the bearings, plastic from the kit and my router. I hope she didn't put them out in the garage because it was broken into and some of my stuff out there was stolen. I really don't want to buy all new now that I see how much vcarve is going to cost me.

I found an old version of Mach 3. What are the differences between R 2 and 3? Will R 2 work with solidworks and vcarve?

Thanks,
Trip

ger21
05-25-2009, 05:22 PM
Start with the latest lockdown version. There have been a ton of small changes and bug fixes.

Tripton
05-27-2009, 11:47 AM
I struck out with the local sign shops for the mdf but I found a cabinet shop that had some nice 1/4" in stock and actually cut it to dimension for me. DRUM ROLL PLEASE.........$60! OUCH! I may have just found a source for solid surface material though. Priceless. While I was in the owner's office I took a look at his decore. Perhaps if my first project is WWII Army Air Corp related it might be just the right thing for this guy to help persuade him into comming off of some Corian. How's that for putting the cart before the horse. I haven't even started the glue up yet and I'm already thinking about my first project. Glue up will begin before sundown though.

Still searching for my kit plastic. If I can't find it does anybody know if Joe is still providing the 06 kits and what he might charge for just the HDPE?

BobF
05-27-2009, 07:29 PM
Pretty sure he will still supply parts 06 or any other. his site is joescnc.com

Tripton
05-27-2009, 09:20 PM
Thanks Bob. I just found the HDPE parts. Still looking for the Hitachi and the bearings. It is amazing how cluttered a woman with no job left my basement. I can't believe how much stuff a 26 year old can accumulate. All of which seemed to find it's way to my basement. Next time I'm going to mary an old woman.

Well, my friend's father's funeral was today so I didn't get as much done as I wanted to. The top gantry torsion box is glued up tho. I used Gorilla wood glue and so far it seems to be working great. I did use more than I would normally when working with hardwoods. I glued the ribs first and then one skin. While gluing the ribs, I did use one skin underneath so the pieces would line up. There was about 1/64 " that the slots seemed to be overcut but perhaps that was planning for the thickness of the glue. It doesn't seem like it would be that critical on the y axis torsions tho. It will be more critical on the x axis torsion. Should be just fine though. To clamp everything lengthwise, I just used 4 of the 1/4" threaded rods. I do think I better get a little quicker when I glue the x axis skin on though. The glue seemed to be almost setting up on the small torsion before I got the skin on. I'm glad I didn't go with the titebond III if it has a shorter set time.

HF finally got some straight edge clamps in so I picked one up today. That will make it much easier for me to cut material to size using a rotarysaw or hand router.

BobF
05-27-2009, 10:12 PM
Not sure the open time on Gorilla glue. Titebond lists 10-15 minutes on the TitebondIII.
It always seems to set faster when I am not prepared.
I am sure the rest of your stuff will be found .... someday.

Tripton
05-28-2009, 11:52 AM
I just finished gluing up the carriage assy. Top and bottom plates were much tighter on one side than the other but it appears to be square to within about 1/64 to 1/128 ". I was surprised at how tight the holes for the recessed nuts were. Is it common for the nuts to sit above the surface of the mdf after being hammered in? Either the recessed depth of the cut is shallow or I bought some really thick nuts. OK...that didn't sound right. lol

Hopefully by tomorrow afternoon I will be ready to prime. I bought a gallon of Zinsser Bulls Eye 1-2-3 water based primer. Any of you have experience with this primer? Pro's and con's? How many primer coats are recomended? I was planning on 2. I'm planning on using a cheap HF gravity fed gun to apply it. Since it's water based, clean up should be easy.

Tripton
05-28-2009, 01:16 PM
Sorry to post 2 in a row but I have just found that my y axis bearing block is about 1/16" too wide. I've never cut HDPE before so I'm not sure. Can I just skim 1/16" off with a power mitre saw? Inside dimension of the carriage is 7 7/16" and the bearing block is just right at 7 1/2". My miter was has carbide teeth if that makes a difference. Obviously I'll have to compensat for the 2 bearing brackets as well. Thanks for any input.

Trip

BobF
05-28-2009, 05:59 PM
You should be able to take a small cut with the saw and get it to fit. Carbide is the only thing to use on MDF, its very abrasive. The dust is very fine and goes everywhere, you may want to wear a dust mask.