PDA

View Full Version : Problem Bought a damaged Okuma



biozen
09-04-2008, 02:56 PM
Hello,

We are a complete CNC newbie and how...

We bought a damaged Okuma CNC LB300M lathe. The damaged part is the control panel - OSP P200L. The screen was smashed beyond recovery when the original buyer was unloading the machine. The PCBs behind the screen inside the panel are twisted and one has a crack. The main (big) board with two Intel chips on it, is a goner. We were able to recover the hard disk and a PCI card that was plugged in. These don't _seem_ damaged. Also the annunciators and keys which are not part of the main control PCB are okay. The drives, bed etc. are perfect, i.e. the actual hardware is good - only the controller is bad (seems something just rammed into it).

For whatever reasons, the Okuma service isn't too keen on providing us with a replacement controller. It seems Okuma Japan, where this machine came from, deleted the machine's serial number from their database, and the machine doesn't exist at all for them, so providing any kind of service is not a possibility.

I'd like to know what alternatives do we have to get this machine running.

1. Will it be possible to run this machine using a PC with the PCI card that we were able to extract, along with the data from the hard disk?

2. Can we use any other CNC controller with the drives of this machine? If yes, which ones?

3. Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Abhishek.

Al_The_Man
09-04-2008, 04:12 PM
If this is a relatively new machine and has AC servo's with non-proprietary drive to them, you may be able to re-use them using a Fagor retro-fit for example.
But if the machine is in otherwise good shape, I would investigate getting existing controller parts from some of the 3 party repair/replace sources.
Al.

MrWild
09-04-2008, 04:13 PM
It sounds like you bought a scrapper. Might be just like with junked cars, they are written off and only good for spare parts. Okuma said it is scrap, and tossed the serial number. Your best bet maybe to go with a PC based controller if everything else is okay.

littlerob
09-04-2008, 05:10 PM
I am not really familiar with the control, or DNC, but couldn't you use DNC to run the machine? And personally I would never call an Okuma scrap.

Al_The_Man
09-04-2008, 06:14 PM
I am not really familiar with the control, or DNC, but couldn't you use DNC to run the machine?

By the sound of it, he is a long way away from DNC :D
Al.

AbsoluteZero
09-04-2008, 06:46 PM
Okuma wont help you cause the machine took a hit in the controller. If the machine was under power at the time the electrical damage could be insurmountable. The thinking behind this for okuma is they dont want there name associated with a machine that may never run again so they regard the serial number aka scrap. So going direct to them wont work. The third party is a good idea find a distributor and buy parts from them. Still this may not work due to the fact you don't know how far the damage will stem. If okuma disregarded it there might be a reason for it. Checking the drives, drivers, servos, and all that good stuff would be a good place to start. If those are good a retrofit is what i would do.

Edster
09-04-2008, 07:11 PM
Okuma wont help you cause the machine took a hit in the controller. If the machine was under power at the time the electrical damage could be insurmountable. The thinking behind this for okuma is they dont want there name associated with a machine that may never run again so they regard the serial number aka scrap. So going direct to them wont work. The third party is a good idea find a distributor and buy parts from them. Still this may not work due to the fact you don't know how far the damage will stem. If okuma disregarded it there might be a reason for it. Checking the drives, drivers, servos, and all that good stuff would be a good place to start. If those are good a retrofit is what i would do.

I'd be pissed if something happened to my new lathe's controller and Okuma refused to provide service for the machine. It's got to be pretty new if it has a p200 thinc control. There has to be some other reason they won't service it. Or your just not talking to the right people at okuma.

You could also try http://www.infinityrebuild.com/

These guys take okumas and retrofit new controls maybe they can help. I've never used them for anything just saw the ad in the machining mags.

Al_The_Man
09-04-2008, 07:17 PM
Okuma wont help you cause the machine took a hit in the controller. If the machine was under power at the time the electrical damage could be insurmountable. The thinking behind this for okuma is they dont want there name associated with a machine that may never run again so they regard the serial number aka scrap. So going direct to them wont work.

Personally I would be a bit upset if I encountered a MTB that had that policy.
I guess this is the down side to a MTB/OEM that also has a proprietary controller.
Rather than a MTB that uses a 3rd party controller such as Mitsubishi that offer excellent support of a controller, regardless of what machine it is on.
Al.

Edster
09-04-2008, 07:39 PM
The original poster is in India, maybe it has somthing to do with export laws for japan and technology items or something. All I know is if the riggers or myself accidentally bumped the lcd screen :eek: where the control's pc computer happened to be located, and okuma wouldn't sell me the part and told me I have to buy a 150k+ machine instead I'd be really mad :boxing: I wonder if they can actually legaly do that. I've know of a company that went BK that the court had stipulated they supply replacement parts to their customers for a few years. With all the claims Okuma makes of standing behind their older machines, and being able to repair older boards, etc, I think were not hearing the whole story behind this.

littlerob
09-04-2008, 08:30 PM
By the sound of it, he is a long way away from DNC :D
Al.

I am the one who said I am not familiar with DNC I dont even know how it runs exeactly. Robert

biozen
09-04-2008, 09:50 PM
It sounds like you bought a scrapper. Might be just like with junked cars, they are written off and only good for spare parts. Okuma said it is scrap, and tossed the serial number. Your best bet maybe to go with a PC based controller if everything else is okay.
Can you suggest a name or a link for the PC based controller?

Thanks,
Abhishek.

biozen
09-04-2008, 09:55 PM
you don't know how far the damage will stem. If okuma disregarded it there might be a reason for it. Checking the drives, drivers, servos, and all that good stuff would be a good place to start. If those are good a retrofit is what i would do.
It seems to us that something hit the control panel, possibly a crane's winch or hook which damaged it. So the servos and drives are good.

Who would you suggest for a retrofit?

Thanks,
Abbhishek.

biozen
09-04-2008, 10:04 PM
With all the claims Okuma makes of standing behind their older machines, and being able to repair older boards, etc, I think were not hearing the whole story behind this.
We are not clear about the details, but this is how it is... Apparently, the original buyer had shipping insurance for the machine. Since it was damaged while being unloaded, they had the machine declared as scrap, filed the insurance claim and got their money. And bought a new one. We then bought it at the auction where it was sold as scrap - but we didn't pay scrap prices for it :( . Since it was now officially a scrap, Okuma refuses to have anything to do with it.

Regards,
Abhbishek.

Al_The_Man
09-04-2008, 10:13 PM
Who would you suggest for a retrofit?

Thanks,
Abbhishek.

The grade or level of retrofit will depend on how old is the machine and how much use has it had.
Obviously it is no good putting a great deal into an old tired machine.
Also are you looking to do this yourself? or are their any retro-fit company's there?



I am the one who said I am not familiar with DNC I dont even know how it runs exeactly. Robert

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. There are a couple of definitions of DNC, but usually it means downloading a program line by line when there is not enough memory to hold it all.
Al.

biozen
09-04-2008, 11:55 PM
The grade or level of retrofit will depend on how old is the machine and how much use has it had.
Obviously it is no good putting a great deal into an old tired machine.
Its brand new. Had just been shipped to the original buyer's location, and was being unloaded when something hit the control panel.


Also are you looking to do this yourself? or are their any retro-fit company's there?
If its something like getting a PC, loading the Okuma software and starting the machine, we _could_ do it. But we know its not going to be so easy.

We are also in talks with some retrofitters, but would like to go to them with suggestions from this forum. One of the retrofitters who does Fanuc says there is an incompatibility with Okuma drives and Fanuc controllers. He says all drives and motors will have to be changed. The quoted figure is big. Somebody else says Okuma spindles have motors built-in so that motor cannot be changed, which effectively means that no retrofitting with 3rd party motors/drives is possible.

We are confused. And have come here for some help.

Thanks,
Abhishek.

holbieone
09-05-2008, 12:06 AM
http://www.ajaxcnc.com/
http://www.centroidcnc.com/

Al_The_Man
09-05-2008, 10:04 AM
One of the retrofitters who does Fanuc says there is an incompatibility with Okuma drives and Fanuc controllers. He says all drives and motors will have to be changed. The quoted figure is big. Somebody else says Okuma spindles have motors built-in so that motor cannot be changed, which effectively means that no retrofitting with 3rd party motors/drives is possible.
Abhishek.

Yes this is a big deciding factor, you need to find out what type of command the drives accept, if ±10vdc, then you need a system controller that does not use proprietary drives, like Fanuc, but manuf such as Fagor will.
If this is a new machine, I still don't know why Okuma would not at least sell you the original replacement parts, even if they don't want to get involved rebuilding it? which would probally be the 'cleanest' way to go.
Did you get all manuals and documentation etc, and any parameter lists??
Al.

Kool Parts
09-05-2008, 01:25 PM
When talking Okuma and rebuild in the same sentence...always at least start with Infinity Rebuild. There isn't a question they cant answer on Okuma.
http://infinityrebuild.com/
Gary

lerman
09-05-2008, 02:02 PM
When talking Okuma and rebuild in the same sentence...always at least start with Infinity Rebuild. There isn't a question they cant answer on Okuma.
http://infinityrebuild.com/
Gary

I would convert it to EMC. That should be a fairly straightforward job. There are lots of people around who have done this sort of conversion.

Ken

biozen
09-05-2008, 10:23 PM
If this is a new machine, I still don't know why Okuma would not at least sell you the original replacement parts, even if they don't want to get involved rebuilding it?
We are a bit sketchy about the details, but the original buyer had this machine declared scrap and got the insurance claim. Since its officially a scrap now, Okuma cannot give us any replacement for it. It would be like saying that the machine is still somewhere out there, can be brought back to life, consequently the insurance claim would be false. Its complicated and we are getting to know about this stuff now.


Did you get all manuals and documentation etc, and any parameter lists??
No. Not all... We've been pursuing the matter with the original buyer who sold us the machine.

Regards,
Abhishek.

HuFlungDung
09-06-2008, 12:05 AM
Auto insurance can write off damaged vehicles, but that is only because the cost to repair them is comparable to replacement. They can and do sell them to people who want them for their own purposes, scrap or not.
I do not think there is any case for a fraudulent claim, just that the manufacturer probably quoted replacement cost to put the new control on, so the insurance co said, well that makes no diff to us and causes a lot of wait for the customer. Its junk.

But it has value to the right people. IF the insurance company did not take the machine, then they are out of the loop.

littlerob
09-06-2008, 01:55 AM
I had my Okuma guy in today and asked him about this very thread....He said he didn't think Okuma would disregard the machine unless they had already considered it a scrap machine (coming from a guy that said he would never scrap an okuma), but I guess that is their buisness not mine. He said the only reason that Okuma would write it off is that is was "an unusable machine". And that those parts, especially elecrical are easily replacable. I think that you need to check carefully about the mechanical usage of that machine. J.M.O. Robert

So I am with Hu.

biozen
09-06-2008, 02:15 PM
AFAIK, the machine's serial number has been erased at Okuma HQ. And that original buyer bought a new Okuma with the insurance claim.

Anyway, the Okuma's drives, motors, bed etc. are 'pristine', without so much as a scratch and the packing plastic is all there. The damage is only to the controller and nothing else. Which is why we bought it in the first place. No cables cut, not mechanical damage nothing. Something just hit the control panel and went into it, smashing the screen and twisting some underlying PCBs.

Regards,
Abhishek.

biozen
09-06-2008, 02:21 PM
I'd like to ask another question... Can an older model Okuma control panel be used instead of OSP P200 which is what this lathe uses? Say, OSP P100.

Al_The_Man
09-06-2008, 02:29 PM
I think it is just a case of Okuma being difficult, IOW, they figure someone is trying to obtain a 'as New' machine without them getting a high priced sale for a new one.
Were that me, I would still tend to look at some back door alternatives of obtaining the necessary parts, usually there is a way, and apparently a few $$ could be spent in light of the condition and what you will end up with.
Be nice if you could find someone with the same type of machine that would cooperate in buying the spares, for a small consideration!
The alternatives are either an expensive retro-fit, or a down grade using a cheaper PC step/direction set-up, for which you would still need to source sizable servo's and spindle.
Al.

littlerob
09-06-2008, 04:15 PM
That is a good question..I don't know. I will email my buddy and see if he knows. Robert

biozen
09-07-2008, 02:37 AM
Be nice if you could find someone with the same type of machine that would cooperate in buying the spares, for a small consideration!
Yes, we tried that as well... Okuma will ship the replacement inside a week only if the Okuma staff here will go to the user's location and verify that the control panel is actually broken. Otherwise, if the user is ordering it as a standby unit or as a spare, they may take anywhere from 6-8 weeks to ship it. And we can't wait that long.


a down grade using a cheaper PC step/direction set-up, for which you would still need to source sizable servo's and spindle.
Al.
Yes, we would really appreciate any help, suggestions, links in this direction. Something that works with Okuma.

Btw, we've mailed infinityrebuild, but are waiting for their reply - its the weekend.

Thanks for all your help,
Abhishek.

biozen
09-07-2008, 02:38 AM
That is a good question..I don't know. I will email my buddy and see if he knows. Robert
Appreciate that. Many thanks!

Abhishek.

MrWild
09-07-2008, 11:46 AM
Well, there is a way to fix this. If the drives are good, then all you need is a computer running EMC2 and a MESA Electronics 5i20 card. The Mesa 5i20 card outputs PWM for drive communication. If the drives use +-10v for control, then you also need a 7i33 card. This takes the PWM and converts it to a +-1-0v signal.

Mesa also has a 7i37 card that has IN/OUTs for communication with encoders, limit switches, and coolant pumps. EMC2 has become quite powerful and VERY capable. There is a way around this and you can be up and running for under $1,500 easy which includes a new computer (really an old one will do), a new monitor, andthe Mesa cards. EMC2 is free.

biozen
09-07-2008, 01:24 PM
Well, there is a way to fix this.
Thanks a million! We'll explore this route and talk to the people at Mesa Electronics. They look promising and so does EMC2.

Thanks,
Abhishek.

Shotout
09-08-2008, 07:28 AM
Parameters and Manuals:
Your controller should have a flash drive physically installed inside the machine. This will contain all the machine specific files such as parameters, a complete backup of the OSP software and possibly the manuals. I was concerned about power interruptions causing the controller to fail to boot in XP Pro based on what we where told by the reseller and wanted to know about having a battery backup installed after market. He told me they had a peripheral device they hooked up that basically forced the control to run something like the old Windows Scan Disk and that if a file was corrupted everything was on this flashcard but my programs which are sent out over the server anyway.
New Controller/parts for a controller:
A buddy of mine that is an app eng and works srv too for our region and is going to be in Charlotte NC most of this week at Thinc. I'll ask him to make some inquiries about your situation and see what can be done. The retrofit may be a quicker solution however.

Edster
09-08-2008, 09:03 AM
Yes, we tried that as well... Okuma will ship the replacement inside a week only if the Okuma staff here will go to the user's location and verify that the control panel is actually broken. Otherwise, if the user is ordering it as a standby unit or as a spare, they may take anywhere from 6-8 weeks to ship it. And we can't wait that long.

Using the oem parts would be what I do. Especially on a machine that's practically brand new. who knows how long it will take to retrofit a control or jury rig a standalone computer. Then who knows if it will actually work as good as the original parts. If the parts were truly unavaliable then you have no other choice, but the parts are available now and you still want to retro?????

One other question if you needed a running lathe that bad that you can't wait 6 weeks, then why did you buy a broken machine in the first place?

biozen
09-08-2008, 09:08 AM
Shotout,

Thanks for the info. We are trying to salvage/repair the controller PCBs at a PCB repair shop. We'll pass this on to the repair technician there asking him to try to read the flash drive ASAP.

Thanks again,
Abhishek.

biozen
09-08-2008, 09:17 AM
Using the oem parts would be what I do.
Same here, and been trying hard to get it from Okuma-India. As I wrote earlier, they are being difficult now.


One other question if you needed a running lathe that bad that you can't wait 6 weeks, then why did you buy a broken machine in the first place?
Because a certain Okuma-India rep told us over the phone (nothing in writing) that the damage was minimal and could be repaired easily inside a week. So in good faith we bought the machine. Remember, we are rank newbies when it comes to CNCs and hence, gullible. Also, Okuma has great reputation and if somebody from the company says that "repairs are easy" we'd believe them. This rep doesn't take our calls now.

Regards,
Abhishek.

Edster
09-08-2008, 10:21 AM
Is the rep from the same company that sold you the machine?

Is the rep the sales rep for your area?

If so, maybe you can convince him to help you out with this because he told you the machine would be so easy to fix. It seems like you need the tech dept to work some magic and say someone elses machine is down, so they can get your parts asap. Seems do able especially considering what the okuma rep told you. Eventually your going to buy more machines, so having a good relationship with the dealer should be their top priority.

Can you outsource the lathe parts you need to make until the machine is fixed?

Shotout
09-08-2008, 12:34 PM
Same here, and been trying hard to get it from Okuma-India. As I wrote earlier, they are being difficult now.


Because a certain Okuma-India rep told us over the phone (nothing in writing) that the damage was minimal and could be repaired easily inside a week. So in good faith we bought the machine. Remember, we are rank newbies when it comes to CNCs and hence, gullible. Also, Okuma has great reputation and if somebody from the company says that "repairs are easy" we'd believe them. This rep doesn't take our calls now.

Regards,
Abhishek.

Depends on how he meant easy. Repairs on an Okuma machine and OSP control is suppose to be easy, plug and play, but like you've found out it is the parts that are the key to that. Can you PM me the s/n? Even if the machine has a notation that it is no longer in srv the records will remain. If nothing else maybe having someone asking from half a world away might get someone's attention on your machine. Okuma and Thinc are pretty image conscious. I might or might not help but is worth a shot.

biozen
09-08-2008, 02:31 PM
Is the rep from the same company that sold you the machine?
No, the machine was sold to us by the original buyer in whose place the machine got damaged while being unloaded. Btw, the original buyer is a subsidiary of a Japanese auto company, with facilities in India manufacturing automobile parts. They must have a zillion Okumas all over the place. And they won't help us. We talked to the Okuma rep before buying the machine and got his verbal assurance.


Is the rep the sales rep for your area?
Yes, north India, although I don't think he's a sales rep - more like a tech-service guy. We are in talks with another rep from Okuma who seems more sympathetic to our cause.


Can you outsource the lathe parts you need to make until the machine is fixed?
Yes, we have quite a few manual lathes, so that is not the problem. We are primarily a foundry, and cast motor bodies. We need the CNC lathe to machine the motor end-covers and flanges to accurate dimensions. We can do this with the other lathes that we have, but its slow and not as accurate as we would like.

Thanks,
Abhishek.

biozen
09-08-2008, 02:33 PM
Can you PM me the s/n?
Will do the first thing tomorrow morning. Its late at night here and I'm at home.

Thanks for taking all the trouble,
Abhishek.

littlerob
09-08-2008, 10:52 PM
Abhishek, my friend the Okuma service guy didn't give me a very good answer he said "there is no reason why Okuma wouldn't be willing to replace the control, unless there was more damage than you know about. Also you can use an older control, but like any thing else (using older components) you wouldn't be getting full usage of the machine" sorry I know that's no help. I just thought I would let you know. Robert

biozen
09-08-2008, 11:33 PM
Abhishek, my friend the Okuma service guy didn't give me a very good answer he said "there is no reason why Okuma wouldn't be willing to replace the control, unless there was more damage than you know about.
I'll probably need to post a few pics to show how good the machine condition and that its just the controller that is hit. What also confirms our evaluation that the machine is otherwise 'perfect', is that the Okuma rep we talked to before buying said that the damage was to the screen and could be repaired easily.


Also you can use an older control, but like any thing else (using older components) you wouldn't be getting full usage of the machine" sorry I know that's no help. I just thought I would let you know.
We don't mind not getting full usage, we just need to machine consumer motor end covers and flanges presently.

I'll ask you just one more favour, the machine is an Okuma LB300C with OSP P200L controller. Please ask your friend what alternative controller/s that can be used, albeit at lower functionality.

Thanks a lot for your help,
Abhishek.

littlerob
09-08-2008, 11:45 PM
I'll ask, but I think any OSP control will run the machine, 5020. 500, 5000, Robert

Shotout
09-09-2008, 04:32 AM
Abhishek, my friend the Okuma service guy didn't give me a very good answer he said "there is no reason why Okuma wouldn't be willing to replace the control, unless there was more damage than you know about. Also you can use an older control, but like any thing else (using older components) you wouldn't be getting full usage of the machine" sorry I know that's no help. I just thought I would let you know. Robert

One more reason that hasn't been meantioned. There are some machines out there that have been stolen in transit and the s/n for those machines are flagged. Also as someone suggested there are in fact some export restrictions to India and they will only ship parts in that are to be installed by a certified tech for a specific machine s/n and certified by the tech as such. If there is no serial number to assign parts to then no parts can be shipped in period. So I would assume the latter is what is going on and the srv company steered Abhishek wrong on the easy part. Still worth looking at what they have in the database on the s/n for that machine if you still want to send it.

biozen
09-09-2008, 06:06 AM
One more reason that hasn't been meantioned. There are some machines out there that have been stolen in transit and the s/n for those machines are flagged.
Its definitely not stolen. We have all kinds of purchase documents to prove it and the original buyer was Suzuki Powertrain India Ltd., making engines, shafts and what not, for Suzuki automobiles in India.


Also as someone suggested there are in fact some export restrictions to India and they will only ship parts in that are to be installed by a certified tech for a specific machine s/n and certified by the tech as such. If there is no serial number to assign parts to then no parts can be shipped in period.
If this was so, then I suspect there must be some rock-solid end-user agreement signed by the original buyer, that would clearly state that under no circumstances can the machine be resold/auctioned by the original buyer, whatever the condition it is in. So Suzuki Powertrain are in deep ****!


Still worth looking at what they have in the database on the s/n for that machine if you still want to send it.
Have sent you a PM, please check.

Thanks,
Abhishek.

Shotout
09-09-2008, 11:01 AM
Its definitely not stolen. We have all kinds of purchase documents ...


If this was so, then I suspect there must be some rock-solid end-user agreement signed by the original buyer...


Have sent you a PM, please check.

Thanks,
Abhishek.
Got the PM have forwarded the s/n.

I don't know how import restrictions work except in very general terms, being in the US if I have ever been effected by them I was unaware, but I'm sure everyone in the transaction was above board. It does sounds like the srv people weren't up front enough with you when you tried to research the purchase though. I was under the impression it was individual components that aren't verifiable to an end usage, hence the srv people having to visually see what machine a part is being sold for use in.

Just as an aside, have you considered purchasing a complete controller? After getting back home and checking my email this morning I saw where my friend had stated with the purchase of a new controller you would receive a valid s/n and the machine can be srv'd in the future. Anyway I forwarded the s/n and if he can develop any insights or suggestions I'll pass them on. Best of luck no matter what.

biozen
09-09-2008, 01:52 PM
Got the PM have forwarded the s/n.
Thanks.


Just as an aside, have you considered purchasing a complete controller?
Yes, we've been trying hard to do that (that's why I asked earlier if any other Okuma control could replace the OSP P200L). But it seems that without a registered machine, you can't get the spare parts... at least if you are in India. We'd happily buy it from overseas if we can get a quote from somebody. But we really don't know who the dealers are. Okuma isn't very forthcoming on their website. inifinityrebuilders haven't got back to us. Google doesn't help much. If anybody could forward dealer names located anywhere, we'd appreciate that.

As an aside, I've realised that except for American companies, who are quite open about their stuff, manufacturers from other countries, especially Asian, don't mention a lot on their websites. I mean, an American machine manufacturing company would put up all manuals, drawings, connections, drive, motor specs etc. on their website. While Okuma has just about ten pages on their website, that's it. More like an introductory brochure than anything else.

Abhishek.

Knighterrant00
11-26-2008, 03:40 PM
http://www.infinityrebuild.com/

Call these guys. They put P200 controls on old Okuma's. They should be able to hook you up

OKUMAHERO
02-23-2009, 03:48 PM
What is the serial number of this machine???