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ro7all
06-12-2008, 12:27 AM
hi, i have a new shopsabre, 4x8 , and i am not able to get it to make identical parts,such as large triangles. i have tried just using the vaccum holddown, and tried screwing down each area, variuos cutting profiles ,speeds feeds, etc.

any help and ideas?

todd71
06-18-2008, 01:47 AM
Did you get this resolved?

ro7all
06-18-2008, 09:26 AM
not totally yet, the guys at SS have been trying to help resolve the problems and have guided me through some procedures to fine tune the servos, and it has gotten much better,but it is still not right yet. they have been very helpful and feel that they are truly trying to help.

todd71
06-18-2008, 08:09 PM
Got any pictures of the parts?

KustomKoncepts
06-24-2008, 08:37 PM
My new SS the gantry is cocked and not true with over 1/8" off from side to side so it can't cut a square either to save its life they are just entry level machines:(

ro7all
06-25-2008, 12:41 AM
no not yet, now i am having other issues also , the digitizer keeps getting PROBE STOCK ,spindle motor slows downs and speeds by itself...
still haven't resolve the part issue, all i was trying to do was large triangles for a corner cabinet.

todd71
06-25-2008, 02:35 AM
My new SS the gantry is cocked and not true with over 1/8" off from side to side so it can't cut a square either to save its life they are just entry level machines:(
Does the tool changer even work being so far off? It maybe an entry level machine. But it should be better than that.
I'm getting +/- .003 on all dimensions 35-125ipm(.062-.500 dia tooling) +/-.006 65-225ipm(.125-.500 dia tooling) When we first assembled the machine we had issues as well. Once we got the indicators out and trued things up, torqued things down and trammed the spindle in most the problems were resolved. I still needed tech support to get the servos dialed in. And I also had to adjusted the backlash comp in WinCNC. Was cutting circles.020 out of round. This adjustment also made the corner transitions smoother. I'm not trying to blame you or excuse SS. If it is a verifiable defect in their manufacturing process they need to fix it.
As for the varying spindle rpm you may have a bad ground or are getting electromagnetic interference. 1st thing I'd do would be move your VFD as far away from the servo control box as possible. If this doesn't help call Tom 919-767-3824. He works for the VFD manufacture. Cool guy with tons of knowledge about the VFD and its function
Hope this helps. There are solutions. But never settle for less than you paid for. You should at least be able to cut squares and triangles.

cabnet636
06-27-2008, 07:38 AM
for an order like that i would purchased the wood milled flat to the best optimizing size, it will be an expense but a savings at the end and allow you to focus on programing and production. good to see you routing jim

ro7all
06-27-2008, 11:13 AM
we have done most of the same thing with ours, "trammed the spindle in " what is this?? i can take a full sheet .75x48x96 and try to cut 8 large triangles of exactly same size, and everyone is different, some will have a slight curve leg, angles not the same....

I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute

todd71
06-28-2008, 02:35 AM
Are you climb milling or conventional? Tramming the spindle is
basically checking the perpendicularity of the spindle to the table.
Using an indicator with "extended" type holder (see attached images) to swing a 180deg arc across the x (side to side) and y (front to back) axis. Optimal would of course be zero readings all the way around.
Gotta give a shout out to
www.cnccookbook.com (http://www.cnccookbook.com)
www.cartertools.com (http://www.cartertools.com)
for the pics.

ro7all
07-02-2008, 11:47 PM
thanks , great explantion.

todd71
07-16-2008, 12:01 AM
How's it going with the machine?

ro7all
07-16-2008, 12:25 PM
it is getting better, but still not with in the .001 accuracy and repeat ability that they claim it is capable of, now they are telling me that wincnc is sending out an update, still waiting for it. as i dont have dial indicator i haven't check the spindle yet either. thanks for asking.

what machine do you have?

Jenni Leibow
07-16-2008, 12:27 PM
okay...sorry for like...going off topic..but i need help....can you tell me how to post to the clubhouse? like how to make a new thread?
thanks-

sheckij

ro7all
07-16-2008, 12:42 PM
hi, go to the forum you want and then look to the right and find the box the says " form tools" and then follow the directions for new thread.:)

ro7all
07-16-2008, 12:43 PM
oops! " forum tools"

KustomKoncepts
07-16-2008, 12:57 PM
I don't have the problems you seem to be having but I am pretty upset still about how my x and y are not square.

I can cut all day and my x will be perpendicular to the x and the y to the y but they are not square to each other.

AdminCrew
07-16-2008, 11:29 PM
Hi man this is Joey
can you post a pic of your side plates for me?

Joey

ro7all
07-17-2008, 01:34 PM
ben, at SS can walk you through the procedure for correcting that problem , just call him, they have a toll free phone number.

KustomKoncepts
07-17-2008, 03:16 PM
I missed Ben yesterday. he tried to call me twice but I missed them. I will call him tomorrow and see if I can get it fixed. I have 3 racecars to letter today so I am busy with that. Thanks for all the help

todd71
07-19-2008, 12:03 AM
it is getting better, but still not with in the .001 accuracy and repeat ability that they claim it is capable of, now they are telling me that wincnc is sending out an update, still waiting for it. as i dont have dial indicator i haven't check the spindle yet either. thanks for asking.

what machine do you have?

I got a 4896. +/-.005 is probably a more realistic expectation. Which for the most part is tighter than I need.
It can be a pain when cutting inlays. But there's always a way to do it. I ended up cutting the inlay, not the pocket, with a tapered end mill as a mirror image. That way I could insert the inlay with narrow side down. The wedge effect filled the gaps that where visible when I cut both pieces with straight sides. Ran it threw the plainer and walla "KICK ASS":banana:
Once dialed in it's a good machine. It just takes some time and tinkering around to get there.

As for parts being out of shape most the problems I've had was when I used to climb milling everything. :wee:

Good luck,
Todd
http://www.innovative-accents.com

cabnet636
07-19-2008, 07:45 AM
todd, how did your table come out, it looked cool even as a skeleton!!

jim

todd71
07-19-2008, 10:55 PM
This table? The customer ended up doing the finish work. He said the end user was happy with the results. I'll have to hit him up again for some pictures of the finish product. Forgotten all about that. Thanks for asking.

vcarver
07-20-2008, 05:28 PM
Has the MFG helped with the issues here? Have they sent a tech or offered to repair/replace your machines that arent performing properly?

KustomKoncepts
07-21-2008, 02:43 PM
After being very frustrated about the squareness of my new SS router I was ready to just live with it being 1/8 off from side to side.

What you have to remember is that We the owners assemble the gantry part so it changes from the factory.

Here is what Ben had me do.

1 Put in a 60 degree v bit or sharpest piont bit you have.

2 on the spoil board make a xy zero anywhere near home positions.

3 (in manual mode) dip the v bit in to make a small mark (spindle running)

4 lift up and go x 40" make a mark with the bit

5 run out Y to 60"

6 Measure to see that they are 40 40 and 60 60 them measure diagnally.

(I put a screw in the two farthest pionts for easier self measuring)

if these numbers are diferent it is not square.

I got 72 1/4 from home diagnal and 72 1/8 from tool side diagnal (1/8" difference)

I started with razor blades as spacers in the draw bar mounts. it got closer but I ended up going to the auto parts store and got a Feeler Guage I took the razor blades out and put in .03 Feeler guage thickness re tightened and losened the pully mount on the ball screw plate and ran it back and forth then retightened it all.

to the best of my ability to measure I am now within .003 or so it is so close I don't care about it and that .003 was when I did a 15" point to point box square so the eye could never see it but you can see how to fix this now and it you where board you could sit and go up or down with Feeler guages as spacer .001 at a time and get EXACT.

The draw bar ball screw cnc's are diferent than rack and pinion systems to tune but I am very happy with the squareness about it now and yes SS was very helpful to get this fixed I have just lived with it for the past 4 months because for signs I did not realy need it that square you could never tell on sign letters.

cabnet636
07-21-2008, 05:52 PM
so we are all good? !!!!

jim

KustomKoncepts
07-21-2008, 05:58 PM
yep it is so close now that the .003 diference diagnal measurements on a 15 inch box does not concern me when it was 1/8 inch it did. I could put in a .004 or .005 schim and I may some time but the parts on the table move more than that .003 so it is very accurate for me now.

cabnet636
07-21-2008, 06:21 PM
excellent!!!
jim

MJIndustry
08-03-2008, 07:02 PM
Glad to hear you have it figured out.

Question for you on the ShopSabre...they say they weld the table and don't use bolts. Does this mean when they sell a machine that they crate and ship it fully assembled?

I'm asking because I'm wondering if I will be able to fit the machine into my basement. I can get long pieces in through the window...and larger pieces through the standard doorway (hopefully :)

todd71
08-03-2008, 07:32 PM
Glad to hear you have it figured out.

Question for you on the ShopSabre...they say they weld the table and don't use bolts. Does this mean when they sell a machine that they crate and ship it fully assembled?

I'm asking because I'm wondering if I will be able to fit the machine into my basement. I can get long pieces in through the window...and larger pieces through the standard doorway (hopefully :)

The largest component is the table which is 63"W x 111"L. It may work.

Todd

KustomKoncepts
08-03-2008, 07:59 PM
the garntry is separate and the legs are separate with cross bars angle iron. the table bed itself is one peice and it is all very heavy I would not suggest how to get it through a window.

MJIndustry
08-03-2008, 08:00 PM
Wow! Thanks for the reply, looks like a great machine but the chances of that going into my basement are very slim.

Looks like I might be back to the Shopbot PRS standard 48x96. (I think it comes in a lot smaller pieces!)

KustomKoncepts
08-03-2008, 08:09 PM
I am not here to judge anyone but I would not ever put a cnc in a house.

from my experience.

#1 very dusty especially in certain woods.

# 2 Noisy

# could cause many health issues it that dust is all over your house all the time.


is your heater or airconditioner inlet in the basement any I have seen are. it will pull all that all over the place.

Flamable and dangerous setting for a residence.

if you are having a hard time getting the machine down there how will the wife love you trying to get full sheets of particle wood and such down there.

I don't know what you are planning to do with it but there are better small machines out there if this is a hobbie or I wouyld add on to your garage or get another out building in you yard.

you can do what you want but I have seen the hellasous mess that a v bit in particle board can make so you can't see across the room even with a dust vacume it will get very dusty down there and you have to get that all in cut and haul it back up.

Just My Opinion

later

cabnet636
08-03-2008, 08:41 PM
i watch many forums and shopbots daily and while i would not recomend my machine (it is a welded monolith) i would ask you what you intend to do with it in a basement as a primary function there are reasons to understand wanting to have a cnc anywhere and if i were to process panel daily a 4x8 is a requirement, if i were to process 4x8 once a month i'd just find a way to do it another way, if you are going to hobby,carve make signs then a 4x4 shopsabre or buddy 32 or 48 by shopbot may be in better order. kustom is right dust removal by it self is only going to pass through your kitchen so many times before the wiffe say's @%^*## this.

so what do you want to do with it?

jim

MJIndustry
08-03-2008, 09:35 PM
Its the wife that wants the machine, I have warned her of the dust issues yet she persists.

We would put it in the garage but we are in Northern Minnesota and it's very cold in the winter and I know from experience tools break in sub zero temperatures. We have a garage with enough room...

KustomKoncepts
08-03-2008, 09:42 PM
I'm from Fargo. yeah its cold up here but insulation and a heater in the garage would save you hundreds of headaches. with getting the machine set up and getting materials onto the table. not to mention the room you need to manuver materials around once you got them downstairs.

It's great that the wife wants it but you guys have no idea what these machines make for a mess I was shocked the first times I fired it up. it makes increadable High pitches screams at time with certain materials and bits. the spindel is quiet as heck but it is the bits cutting you hear. over 100 DB easy at times... it made way more of a mess than you would ever think it could. I will look for some pictures of what a mess it makes.

try to make the garage work.

when I went to SS in the cities they did a small 3x3" 3D carve and I was like yeah it is quiet and clean. yeah it is for that but try to cut something it throws a rooster of dust 3' out the back of the bit.

ger21
08-03-2008, 09:56 PM
We would put it in the garage but we are in Northern Minnesota and it's very cold in the winter and I know from experience tools break in sub zero temperatures. We have a garage with enough room...

Throw one of these in your garage.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Reznor-UDAP45-Natural-Gas-45K-BTU-Garage-Heater-NEW_W0QQitemZ330258057714QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330258057714&_trkparms=72%3A552%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1318

I've had mine for a few years now and it works great. I keep my garage at about 50° all winter and when I want to do some work, it's nice and toasty in minutes.

MJIndustry
08-03-2008, 10:11 PM
We will look into the possibilities of heating the garage. Hey guys...thanks for the help.

We are wanting a 4x8 to primarily route HDU Foam and occasionally wood. This forum is huge...any threads or forums in particular to do some side by side comparisons on getting a good value on a decent machine? Thanks!

KustomKoncepts
08-03-2008, 10:24 PM
You can not ask what is the best machine to get there are thousands of Pissin contesta about this subject all over this place. first narrow down by size, Motor options, Vqacuma table options, then look at convinience SS is right by us up here and they have been good. I was able to go there al look at it first hand. you have to take and narrow down the diferent machines pretty much by your self and decide on what you want and need in a machine. if not there will be thousands of post here telling you their machine is the best you make the desision.

I started thinkin a Plasm/Wood CNC was what I wanted. dust and flames don't mix well and they are not as easy to change back and forth like they say (diferent heads, table,ECT HASSEL)

I also looked at shop bot but not for long, I looked at multicam but too expensive, Axyz also too expensive ect you just have to look at it all and you will find the one you want, they are pretty much doing the same thing. the diferences is

#1 Ball screw VS rack and Pinion

#2 Porta cable VS Spindel

# 3 HP of the spindel

# 4 Tool changer options

the list goes on what it came down for me was I was 3 hours away from the manufacture and was able to see it first hand that made my desision.

Be carful though not only with SS but most manufactures there is a nice base price but that includes nothing by the time I had it to what I wanted it was $35,900 from the $12K base price.


PS HDU cuts like butter very quiet but still throws a lot of dust in the air

Hardywood
08-03-2008, 11:29 PM
Maybe shopsabre doesnt offer one but you can get a dust collection attachment mounted at the spindle. It will cut down on the mess. alot.

KustomKoncepts
08-03-2008, 11:52 PM
SS dust boot is not that good and it does not help much I found it was too in the way so I threw it away.

ro7all
08-04-2008, 10:16 AM
hi, these machines are very noisy, when you saw your demo the room was huge , i am willing to bet , that allowed the sound to dissipate . in a small enclosed area it would be unbearable. I have mine in a 3000 sq. ft shop and it is very necessary to wear hearing protection.

well to be honest and fair SS has been reasonable fair and diligent about helping with the many issues regarding their machine, i am in California and they have what is called the Lemon Law-which allows you to return a new vehicle if there are way to many problems with it , well if this thing would have been a car it would not be it in my shop right now.

maybe because you guys live closer and at least in the same time zone things are better for you, i don't know??

KustomKoncepts
08-04-2008, 12:01 PM
I have mine in about a 1,000 sq area certain materials or certain bits really scream and yeah it is nothing I would want in my house. not to mention remember the single or 3 phase power. residential areas will not have 3 phase power supplies to operate these.

I have had some issues but they where all operator and set up and calibration error. I have resolved them all and am generally happy with it.

these are only machines they only do what you tell them to do and they can't calibrate or corect themselfs. after I put the .03 shims in my machine is now square and accurate.

ddgman2001
03-30-2009, 08:38 PM
My new SS the gantry is cocked and not true with over 1/8" off from side to side so it can't cut a square either to save its life they are just entry level machines:(

Are you saying your gantry is racked?

I wonder if running a pair of ball screws instead of one in the center would help keep things square?