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SIG
09-29-2007, 03:06 AM
What holders and collets or disks do you prefer when drilling with thru coolant?

big_mak
09-29-2007, 01:42 PM
I dig ER collets with the rubber seals, then you don't have to fart around with the disks!

that's my $.02

dertsap
09-29-2007, 04:49 PM
DA and ER are my preferance for smaller sized drills , though with DA collets i do find there is more farting around with them to get the drill dialed up dead nuts, sidelock for all else

big_mak
09-29-2007, 04:51 PM
Side lock is condemned in my shop!!!!!

dertsap
09-29-2007, 05:03 PM
Side lock is condemned in my shop!!!!!

why"s that ?

big_mak
09-29-2007, 05:06 PM
side lock = run out
run out = premature wear

dertsap
09-29-2007, 05:16 PM
when i say larger drills i am refering to a heavy sized drill ,generally 1" shank plus , i find if it's a decent holder then the drill will dial up fairly well , on many of the jobs we have we are plowing thru steel plate and these tool move fast , if we try runnig the larger drills in anything other than a sidelock then the drill will spin in the holder and break .

i do agree about premature wear with runout , ive seen many burned drills after only a small number of holes because someone was in to much of a hurry to clock it

big_mak
09-29-2007, 05:26 PM
I've used standard ER collets and thru coolant for milling deep slots and Parts the need to be pretty.

For them big drills, yah you need side lock or your in big poop. That simply can't be avoided.

I've used thru coolant lots. I regret not getting it on the machine I bought for myself. Hind sight we all know.... 20/20.

At the same time with a 10K spindle I'm now wishing I got a mist collector. With 10K and thru coolant a mist collector is a must have.

The answer for collets is still ER series for me. Unless you can spring for shrink fit, or hydraulic, or the BIG Mega Chucks!!!!!!

I just sprang for some ultra precision ER chucks from techleader. Dropped in a half inch endmill and clocked it in the spindle 0.0002" run out, measuring on the cutting edges. Who do I blame for this? the endmill or the holder. JK

Finish was amazing in 7050 Ally!!!!

dertsap
09-29-2007, 06:13 PM
. Dropped in a half inch endmill and clocked it in the spindle 0.0002" run out, measuring on the cutting edges.
Finish was amazing in 7050 Ally!!!!

hard to beat er holders , tg are good as well ,they hold pretty solid , i'm not sure if they make them with the rubber in the collets for thru spindle , ive just used them (tg)with thru spindle on endmills for chip evacuation ,lots of coolant pours thru the slits of the collet



At the same time with a 10K spindle I'm now wishing I got a mist collector. With 10K and thru coolant a mist collector is a must have.
!!!!

coolant mist tastes great when a guy has to be popping his head in the machine every so often , doesn t it ?

big_mak
09-29-2007, 06:19 PM
Doesn't help with getting any action when you get home wreaking of Valcool, Blaser, Oemetra or what ever you use!!!!!

SIG
09-29-2007, 11:21 PM
Thank you for the responses.

fmari
09-30-2007, 11:01 AM
Here is the most common collet chuck that I sell. CAT40-ER32. You can't beat my price and quality. Concentricity between the outside taper and the inside taper is .0001 or less. Balanced to G2.5-20,000 rpms. The nice thing about ER collet chucks is that you don't need to carry too much inventory. I make and sell floating tapping heads that take ER collet and straight shank ER collet chucks. I use these almost all the time in my machine shop. I use it for 3/4 carbide endmills with no issues. My collet nuts are solid and not the bearing type. Bearing style collet nuts sound nice on paper but in reality they crack too easy and they get contaminated with coolant and chips. I sell separately ER collet nuts and I sell them all the time to people replacing their bearing style collet nuts. So far I have 2000 of these in the US. Not a single complaint.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q82/frankmari/cat40-er32-3.jpg

SIG
09-30-2007, 01:16 PM
Here is the most common collet chuck that I sell. CAT40-ER32. You can't beat my price and quality. Concentricity between the outside taper and the inside taper is .0001 or less. Balanced to G2.5-20,000 rpms. The nice thing about ER collet chucks is that you don't need to carry too much inventory. I make and sell floating tapping heads that take ER collet and straight shank ER collet chucks. I use these almost all the time in my machine shop. I use it for 3/4 carbide endmills with no issues. My collet nuts are solid and not the bearing type. Bearing style collet nuts sound nice on paper but in reality they crack too easy and they get contaminated with coolant and chips. I sell separately ER collet nuts and I sell them all the time to people replacing their bearing style collet nuts. So far I have 2000 of these in the US. Not a single complaint.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q82/frankmari/cat40-er32-3.jpg


I didnt see any specific to thru coolant. They do look nice, does anyone here
have experience with these?

dertsap
09-30-2007, 01:37 PM
not impressed with the solid nut

fmari
09-30-2007, 02:15 PM
not impressed with the solid nut

No problem. When your bearing nut cracks or doesn't rotate smooth you can buy a replacement from me.

Yes all my tapered tool holders have coolant-thru capabilities but my drill chucks. I have sold many holders to members of the practical machinist forum. Do a search and you will find many happy customers.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/13/6035.html#000000

Some of my initial customers were skeptical because my prices are so low. But once they order 1 and have a chance to try it out, they always order more. I deal in large volume. I normally stock 300 pcs of just CAT40-ER32 chucks. I also stock 300 sets of er32 collet sets and 200 sets of er16 collets. I make small margins but I make it up in volume.

dertsap
09-30-2007, 02:32 PM
No problem. When your bearing nut cracks or doesn't rotate smooth you can buy a replacement from me.

.

ive never had that problem ,never had one crack and i like to keep the tools clean, i've been doing this long enough not to be sold on a pitch
i wasn t knocking your product , i was just answering the gentlemans question

fmari
09-30-2007, 03:01 PM
It is great you are having good luck with using bearing nuts. I am nut using a sales pitch. I am just stating what I have seen and experienced first hand.

For first I own a machine ship near Chicago. I have 12 cnc lathes all with live tooling and I also have 14 cnc mills all with 20 or 40 tool, tool changers. On several occasions I've had a bearing nut crack and have all the ball bearings splatter around the machine. Luckily I had the door closed.

Secondly as a manufacturer and seller of tool holders I sell a lot of collet nuts. Yes just the nuts. 80% of the people that buy them are replacing broken bearing nuts. The other 20% are just buying nuts to replace lost ones. So I am not the only one by far with the same problem.

Also unless you are running prototype work these bearing nuts will get contaminated. Try running a bearing nut in high speed or just medium speed drilling and milling with coolant. Over time sludge will get inside. Sure it still might rotate but not as freely as new. Coolant contamination is a fact of life. If it wasn't spindle bearing rebuilders would be out of business since over 90% of bearing failure is due to contamination.

dertsap
09-30-2007, 03:19 PM
you forgot to meantion the cost efficiency of producing a solid nut
as with all tooling it must be creaned on a regular basis , there is a point to having bearings

something i picked up from the net:

ER collet nuts

The friction-bearing design of ER Collet Nuts for high precision and high-speed applications allows for extremely high clamping forces without the need to over-tighten. The large cross-section between the nut and race provides the durability of a solid nut with the increased clamping force and concentricity of a bearing nut. An expanded life of the nut results from both the heat treating process that provides a wear-resistant surface and the low friction that reduces forces from twisting the top of the collet.

fmari
09-30-2007, 03:43 PM
Sure the bearings are much easier to make. And my price reflects that.

I agree with the above statement, but only when it is new. I don't care how much you clean it, stuff will get inside. What if you are running a job of 10,000 pcs. Are you saying you should stop the job halfway, take apart all your holders clean the nuts and put it back together and continue. My collet nuts perform the same when new or old. Bearing nuts do not last as long and when old they don't rotate or if they do rotate not freely and if you pay attention while tightening they bind and become a solid nut.

Also bearing nuts cannot be balanced. Sure you can balance them. But after a couple of clampings and unclampings they lose balance. Because the nut is at the farthest point and is one the the biggest diameters on the holder this is a very critical flaw.

I am not here to argue about bearing nuts or solid nuts. I am just trying to say that sometimes it is better to leave well enough alone. Solid nuts are very cost-effective, very reliable, very durable, much more durable than bearing nuts. Solid nuts can be balanced much better than bearing nuts. These facts cannot be argued.

dfstrasser
11-04-2007, 08:10 AM
Schunk Tendo hydraulic for drilling and finish milling. Runout is almost non-existent. For roughing, their Sino-R is excellent.

fmari
11-04-2007, 10:52 AM
For the price they better have great runout. What the price on some of those holders???

dfstrasser
11-04-2007, 07:29 PM
The CAT40 hydraulic chucks are about $270 for 1/2" or 3/4". Their intermediate sleeves are about $125 ea., but you can get those elsewhere for quite a bit less. The SINO holders are about $250 and include one sleeve. They are definately more than a decent ER32 holder, but they are in a different league. The hydraulic chucks really shine in finishing operations.

fmari
11-16-2007, 08:34 PM
Soon I will be stocking cat40 and bt40 milling chucks.

superunknown
11-27-2007, 09:26 PM
You Guys are doing yourselves a great disservice if you don't at least order one of Mari's tools just to run and evaluate. I have ordered over 3 thousand dollars worth of his product and can vouch for the quality.
The ER chucks and collets are on par with anything from Parlec, Techniks, or Rego-Fix.
Here's another thing you should know: He has the best service of anyone in the business. He know his product and will do anything within his power to get the tools to you on time.
I normally don't go to bat for a vender but this guy has pulled my ass out of a crack several times.

'Course if you want to keep paying $85 for endmill holders and $140 for ER chucks don't let me slow you down.

dertsap
11-29-2007, 12:13 AM
Sure the bearings are much easier to make. And my price reflects that.

.
no disrespect but when i'm fed a line of BS i don t look back

no disservice to me , our last order was over 50,000 worth of holders from kennametal

fmari
12-02-2007, 10:19 AM
Wow, Next time you buy $50,000 worth of tool holders you should buy them from a company that actually makes them themselves.

dertsap
12-02-2007, 11:55 AM
Wow, Next time you buy $50,000 worth of tool holders you should buy them from a company that actually makes them themselves.

another fine sales pitch ?
maybe i should talk the company into throwing 50 g into some company over the internet that nobody has ever heard of
i'm sure it quite clear i won t buy them thru you

fmari
12-02-2007, 01:02 PM
Sir, Its obvious you have something against the little guy. Maybe I just rubbed you the wrong way. Yes you are correct not many people have heard of me, but you have to start somewhere don't you? I am a CNC programmer/engineer plain and simple that owns a machine shop. I am using my experiences to create my own line of tool holding solutions that I think people like me can appreciate. I don't think Kennametal just decided on a brand name and purchased a 200,000 sq. ft. building.

I think many of us on this forum are little guys. I think you comment was unfair. Anyway accept my apology and have a great day. Kennametal has some good products and I wish you the best of luck.

dertsap
12-02-2007, 01:27 PM
as i posted previously ,i'm not out to knock your product and i hope you do well with it , but i totally disagree with what you had posted about the nuts and there is no convincing me otherwise , i have and do work with both styles , i have never blew one up ,and we run the machines hard . and as far as the bearing being sticky ,its only a matter of soaking it in varsol for a short bit ,and blowing it off, yes we replace nuts just like everyone else , most part it is due to loss or damage that resulted while machining , and once again this happens with both styles
as far as being unfair ,i suppose i pushed further than i needed to ,and i apologize for that but at the same time you jumped against the product that we had purchased
the reason kenna got the sale was quality and the price , they did good for us on a bulk order , and the prices are quite comparable to yours , maybe a little more .

i look at the simple fact that there is no point of arguing with a retailer about my preferences in a tool or anyother product ,i'll just go elsewhere , be it the big guy or little guy ,it makes no difference to me

i mean you no ill will or disrespect
and once again , good luck with your product

anotheropinion
01-12-2008, 03:56 AM
Just curious where are your Holders and collets made and to what level are they balanced? to be honest it looks like decent China quality but typical Chinese specs .0003 runout?!?! measured where? To what standard?

No offering of Ultra precision collets or even inch sizes...

I think most people buying your product are small shops and thats fine but tool holders are cheap compared to what a bad one costs in lost time and scrap parts

Also I don't think we would by your product since we use HSK holders and yours are more expensive then the Rego-fix holders that we buy!

g30u0w0
01-16-2008, 10:11 PM
Good point. Where are the tools made. Mari tool is the same address as Frank's Welding, which is a shop in Melrose Park, IL. Are the tools made there?