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Reflow
07-18-2007, 06:51 AM
So three months have gone by since I started this project but I have been pretty slack about starting a thread. In that time I have made reasonable progress building the base table, the gantry, and the Z carriage so that I have a rolling X and Y axis. To those with a kit cut by Joe, I can't express how lucky you are because it is a lot of work if you want to cut one by hand, I can assure you. :)

Here in Oz we have a random mix of metric and imperial materials, to the stage where a sheet of MDF has a metric thickness (3,6,9,12,16,18mm) and imperial dimensions 4'x8' for a full sheet. So I have been building a mostly imperial machine, adjusting only where necessary for metric (thicknesses of the MDF). This leads to only very minor modifications to Joes machine. The cut-outs in the torsion box pieces need to be narrowed, as well as the slots in the sides of the Z carriage, but otherwise things are much the same.

The whole machine has been cut with a jigsaw and a cheap-o router, the pair costing AU$100 total. The process has been to print a 1:1 template, stick it down to a 6mm MDF template, and use this to cut out all the repetitive pieces from thicker materials. For the more complicated parts such as the sides of the Z carriage and the gantry walls (which need slots routed) I glued the prints directly to the parts. Now I'm stuck trying to get them back off again with a razor blade so I can paint.

This is probably enough ramblings for one post, hopefully a few photos of the build are attached.

--Scott

epineh
07-18-2007, 07:10 AM
Looks like you are off to a great start, keep em comin :)

Russell.

Reflow
07-18-2007, 07:23 AM
A couple of blurry phone photos of the X and Y axis assembled.

Since taking these I have glued the skins to the big torsion box and given all the boxes a coat of shiny white paint. The gantry walls and the end plates are next but I need to sort out lead screws first before I paint over my centre marks.

Greolt
07-18-2007, 07:23 AM
Good start Scott

Wonder if this is the first "Joe's 2006" made in Australia?

Greg

Reflow
07-18-2007, 07:33 AM
Good start Scott

Wonder if this is the first "Joe's 2006" made in Australia?

Greg

I don't know of any others, but I believe the race is on between Claudio and I to finish one. :)

I had considered I might have been able to cut him one by the time he got back from the states (with Joe's permission). But as always these things take longer than expected.

I'm jealous of all the stuff he brought back: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320022&postcount=12

--Scott

joecnc2006
07-18-2007, 08:10 AM
Very nice job with hand tools.

the gantry walls ar you going to have the outer side wall pieces cut and glued together, it is two thick on each side, then just reinforce the walls after machine built.

Joe

Reflow
07-18-2007, 08:27 AM
Very nice job with hand tools.

the gantry walls ar you going to have the outer side wall pieces cut and glued together, it is two thick on each side, then just reinforce the walls after machine built.

Joe

Cheers.

Yeah i didn't notice they were missing in the photo, you can actually see the outer pieces sitting to the right of the machine. Since I had no way to cut a decent round pocket, they are not pocketed and the pipes are 1/2" shorter across the gantry instead. I have since glued then together and it is all pretty solid.

The hardest part about hand cutting has been the bearing adjustment plates, it is really hard to cut them exactly right without any slop. They will be the first thing to re-cut once I have the machine running.

ClaudioG
07-18-2007, 04:53 PM
I don't know of any others, but I believe the race is on between Claudio and I to finish one. :)

I had considered I might have been able to cut him one by the time he got back from the states (with Joe's permission). But as always these things take longer than expected.

I'm jealous of all the stuff he brought back: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320022&postcount=12

--Scott

No need to get worried Scott, you're way ahead of me. I've just done the easy bit by shopping for parts and have some renovations to finish before I get started on this project.

Your machine is coming along great.

Maybe I'll have to lend you my ACME's so you can cut the parts for me ;)

Cheers

Claudio

bp092
07-18-2007, 08:20 PM
Nice work, especially doing it manually. Templating is definitely the way to go. Building joe's machine manually is a lot of work but completely do-able. Can't wait to see the videos to come when you fire it up.

Greolt
07-18-2007, 08:37 PM
Scott and Claudio

I know you are past this stage and have the cutting pretty much done but did

you consider getting the MDF components cut by a comercial CNC operator?

I wonder if anyone has done a costing?

I am thinking mostly of in Australia where getting the precut components shipped over from Joe is cost prohibitive.

It might be something that would assist people who are thinking about a Joe's but are concerned about all the cutting to jump in.:)

Greg

ClaudioG
07-18-2007, 08:43 PM
I am keen on getting the parts cut via CNC, either through another hobbiest or a commercial operator.

The first step is to convert Joes plans to metric thickness MDF and HDPE which I am hoping to get help with from a friend of a friend.

Even though the manual cutting is possible, I'd be concerned about the effort involved and the accuracy of the end result.

Claudio

Greolt
07-18-2007, 09:03 PM
Cladio I would have a bit of a dig around on the forum.

I am sure others have made these changes already.

Certainly worth having a search.

Greg

epineh
07-18-2007, 10:35 PM
I for one plan to build my next machine big enough to cut out pieces for things like Joe's machine (job size 3.5m by 1.5m), but unfortunately my day job while paying for it kinda gets in the way of building, my time scale is one month to give my first machine a "makeover" and 6 months to build the second (using the first to help of course:)).

I know this isn't much help right now but by Chrissie...

I don't plan to mass produce kits at all, just help out hobby guys if they need it.

Does anybody have any thoughts of re-inforcing the MDF by diluting polyester resin with acetone, pouring this over and into the MDF (with hardener mixed), then cutting out the parts as desired ?

I have heard of this done and the MDF machining beautifully.

I didn't go the route of a MDF based machine as the humidity is at about 90% or more all year long where I live, but if it could be sealed like this then I would definately build Joe's machine for myself.

Russell.

Reflow
07-19-2007, 07:13 AM
It's not directly applicable, but I looked into getting a MDF mold cut for vacuum forming a while back and people where generally reluctant to machine MDF. It had to go in a mill rather than a router since it was about 300mm thick. I was either told it wasn't worth their effort to clean up the mess or that OHS rules meant they weren't allowed to cut it. So I didn't think to look this time.

Hopefully if enough of us can get machines running we will be able to cut parts for others machines.

Reflow
07-19-2007, 07:25 AM
I didn't go the route of a MDF based machine as the humidity is at about 90% or more all year long where I live, but if it could be sealed like this then I would definately build Joe's machine for myself.

Russell.

The difference in working with MDF at different humidity is pretty impressive. It hadn't rained here in months and the MDF was real dry and created heaps of dust while cutting. Then it rained for a few weeks straight and there was almost no dust, there was just this little trail of almost mud behind the jigsaw.
Turns out I had cut the slots in my gantry walls and the carriage sides to such a tight fit while it was dry, that I had to wait until the weather dried up again to get them together.

Have you thought about just sealing the MDF with a poly-urethane or similar floor coating? It would take a bit longer than a single pour of resin but you can apply it in a much more controlled manner. I almost did mine that way, but decided cleaning paint out of the brush was slightly less painful than cleaning the floor stuff out. The poly-urethane would actually have been cheaper than the paint though.

Reflow
07-26-2007, 09:10 AM
So last weekend I got sick of trying to figure out what to do about lead screws and grabbed a couple of lengths of allthread to match bearings I had lying around and got the X-axis moving with a cordless drill.
The thread is 10mm and has a pitch of about 17tpi, so the gantry moves real slow compared to the screw. Guestimating a little I think it turned at about 900RPM before it started to whip, which gives me rapids of about 50IPM :) Not bad for a cheap bit of thread.

I'm hoping my HobbyCNC control board shows up before this weekend so I can get the X and Y moving from the PC.

Some photos attatched:
1) X and Y assembled with the leadscrew in place. Partially painted.
2) Bodgy bearing and Nema34 mount for the X axis with the 10mm screw poking through.
3) 9.5mm flush trim bit. This poor tool has done a lot of work cutting out all the pieces for this machine. Really needed a bigger cutter but this is the only one that would fit down the slots in the torsion box parts. Don't know when I lost the shield off the bearing, but it is pretty much seized now.
4) Stop that whipping
5) Lots a clamps. This is one of the gantry sides going together
6) Bodgy Anti-Backlash nut for the X-axis. Yes, I was foolish enough to press both nuts in from the same direction, rather than opposing them.
7) Shot of the underside. That torsion box is incredibly flimsy without the skins. You can push the gantry around by about 5mm (excluding any slop in the lead screw nut) just because of the flex in the bottom box.
8) Random shot of a gantry wall. You can see the 1:1 prints still stuck down from which I did all the cutting. I glued it down with 50/50 PVA and water, it's really NOT fun to get off again.


--Scott

joecnc2006
07-26-2007, 09:35 AM
Looks good, hope you fixed the anti-backlash nuts.

Joe

CNC-Joe
07-26-2007, 04:50 PM
Reflow - Great job on the components...especially cutting them yourself without a CNC! WOW!

Please post some pictures of how you are making your cuts - I'm sure a lot of people would like to have a try at making their own components. Pictures of your router jigs and guides and a how-to on your methods -would help a lot of people over the hurdle of making their own machine.

Anti-Whip Setup: I see a lot of people using the 2 nuts and a spring. I've tried this -although it can take out some whip - it also introduces a great amount of friction (due to the nut sliding on the bearing seal). Check out my thread on: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29977&page=9

It really reduced the frictional losses.

Good luck on your build and keep going!

Joe

epineh
07-26-2007, 10:23 PM
The threaded rod works fairly well for the price, I used it on my router, while it isn't the fastest on rapids, I was getting about 1200mm/min max speeds.

It gives the gantry a lot of force as well, don't get your hand caught anywhere, I had to really lean on an axis with both hands to stop it, only had 120 oz in steppers.

Gives you nice accuracy as well, I had no probs milling circuit boards.

I ran a die nut up and down a few times to smooth the thread a little, worked well.

I know it isn't the best solution, but as you mentioned for the price, not to mention the availability in Aus.

Keep up the good work :)

Russell.

ClaudioG
07-31-2007, 06:19 PM
Looking like a CNC machine now Scott. Well Done!

Are you getting the HobbyCNC kit or just the board? If the board only, what steppers will you be using?

Claudio

FPV_GTp
07-31-2007, 06:51 PM
Scott and Claudio

I know you are past this stage and have the cutting pretty much done but did

you consider getting the MDF components cut by a comercial CNC operator?

I wonder if anyone has done a costing?

I am thinking mostly of in Australia where getting the precut components shipped over from Joe is cost prohibitive.

It might be something that would assist people who are thinking about a Joe's but are concerned about all the cutting to jump in.:)

Greg



HI Reflow , very nice work on your router table , i bet you didn't know about some of you lazzy muscles existed . cutting everything manually.

Greolt , a very good idea , i have a friend in the commercial furnature industry they have 3 huge commercial cnc-router tables and a Huge HAAS 4 axis cnc milling machine.

If someone could do all the plans save on programming costs . I could ask for a quotation for just there cutting services and materials. From memory they are using all BOBCAD software in there factory.

I'm sure there would be a lot of interested here in australia.

there shop is in Mcintyre road sunshine

cheers

Reflow
08-01-2007, 07:17 AM
Looking like a CNC machine now Scott. Well Done!

Are you getting the HobbyCNC kit or just the board? If the board only, what steppers will you be using?

Claudio

Hi Claudio,
Yeah it's slowly coming together, it's all in pieces again at the moment though :)
I've come to a tedious part, scraping the paper I glued to the parts off. Only the few parts which had slots in them had to have the prints glued to the actual part so it's not a massive surface area.

I purchased just the board, I had a couple of steppers I scrounged which I intend to use. They are brand new, they were spares for obsolete printing equipment. One Nema34 450oz/in it's a beast of a motor about 150mm long. And a couple of smaller 23's which I don't know the torque on. Still waiting on the board unfortunately :( Dave shipped it immediately but the post is taking ages.

There is an ozzie on ebay (pax0604) selling 425oz/in Nema23 motors for $100 each, don't know how that shapes up compared to shipping on the HobbyCNC kit.

Reflow
08-01-2007, 07:23 AM
HI Reflow , very nice work on your router table , i bet you didn't know about some of you lazzy muscles existed . cutting everything manually.

Greolt , a very good idea , i have a friend in the commercial furnature industry they have 3 huge commercial cnc-router tables and a Huge HAAS 4 axis cnc milling machine.

If someone could do all the plans save on programming costs . I could ask for a quotation for just there cutting services and materials. From memory they are using all BOBCAD software in there factory.

I'm sure there would be a lot of interested here in australia.

there shop is in Mcintyre road sunshine

cheers

Hi,
If you are interested I can probably generate a set of DXF's with metric slots since I modified most of the drawings for my templates anyway. But I'd make no guarantee's about correctness.

Personally I'm quite happy with the way mine is turning out so far from hand cut parts. Though I have to admit there are some parts I'll be re cutting once it's up and running. :)

Reflow
08-01-2007, 07:31 AM
The threaded rod works fairly well for the price, I used it on my router, while it isn't the fastest on rapids, I was getting about 1200mm/min max speeds.

It gives the gantry a lot of force as well, don't get your hand caught anywhere, I had to really lean on an axis with both hands to stop it, only had 120 oz in steppers.

Gives you nice accuracy as well, I had no probs milling circuit boards.

I ran a die nut up and down a few times to smooth the thread a little, worked well.

I know it isn't the best solution, but as you mentioned for the price, not to mention the availability in Aus.

Keep up the good work :)

Russell.

Hi Russel,
The rod is doing ok I must admit. 1200mm/min is about 50in/min so your getting much the same speed as I'm seeing.

The zinc plated rod is pretty smooth as purchased, but I have been giving everything a spray with a can of dry-lube (teflon based) from Jaycar.

If your interested the same fellow with the steppers I mentioned to Claudio has 6TPI ACME and a matching lead nut available. His ebay name is pax0604. My problem is still mounting nuts, the cheapest I have found here is $40 each for a plain steel nut to match the ACME.

ClaudioG
08-01-2007, 07:36 AM
Hi,
If you are interested I can probably generate a set of DXF's with metric slots since I modified most of the drawings for my templates anyway. But I'd make no guarantee's about correctness.

Personally I'm quite happy with the way mine is turning out so far from hand cut parts. Though I have to admit there are some parts I'll be re cutting once it's up and running. :)

I'm definately interested in the metric plans!

I probably just need to sit down with someone familiar with a CAD package for about 5 minutes and then I'd be able to mod them myself.

I'd also be very interested to see how much someone would charge to cut the parts.

epineh
08-01-2007, 07:43 AM
Cheers Scott, I will check out pax0604 on ebay, though to be honest, I am going to leave my machine pretty much as it is, just as soon as I retrofit servo's. I did a quick trial by giving a 24v supply to the servo motor and it seems to be a fair bit quicker than 1200mm/min, though I will have to do it properly to know exactly.

Then its onto machine # 2... heh

Cheers.

Russell.

Reflow
08-13-2007, 08:22 AM
Been a while since I posted some progress had a few distractions the last few weekends which has slowed down the build.

So in the last few weeks:
--I cleaned up all the pipes
--Constructed the Z axis bearing plate(which I didn't take any pictures of)
--Received my HobbyCNC controller board, which i wasted no time assembling :)
--Got the Z axis moving with a bit of rubber hose as a coupler and 8mm all-thread.

I've attached a few pictures of everything assembled thus far and of my poorman's lathe which I polished the pipes with.
For the 3/4" pipe I used a grommet tightened between 2 nuts to hold the pipe and for the 1" I used some rubber chair feet that had a taper. It didn't run particularly true but it was good enough to get the job done. I'm sure all the zinc I inhaled before I realised the mess it was making didn't do me any good. Wear a respirator, took me the first couple of pipes to figure that out.
The before and after pipe photos show a finished pipe an untouched pipe, and a polished but not sprayed pipe. The milky look is the PTFE based dryl ube I have been using to protect the pipes.

Reflow
08-27-2007, 08:35 AM
For those interested in using templates to cut a 'Joes' machine I figure I'll make a few posts about my method. I'm sure someone can suggest a better way but this worked for me.

I'll start with a post on the templates themselves. I found it useful to mark two extra things on the drawings before printing them off. Centre marks for all the holes and guide lines for placing a fence for cutting or routing. I have attached both a jpeg of what a template ends up like as well as a matching drawing. The part is the Z axis bearing block, which goes up and down with the tool.

The centre marks and dimensions are in red and the guide lines for the router are in blue. I used a single 1/4" slot drill for all the slots regardless of width. So each physical slot has a guide line for each extreme to bring it out to the correct width. You'll notice that I actually botched it and some of the lines are over slots, but if your careful about the order this still works.

--Scott

CNC-Joe
08-30-2007, 11:33 PM
You did an excellent job of cutting this by hand. I would say if you used a fence and a platform under the router to butt securely against the fence - you'd have one heck of a set up. of the platform somehow indicated both sides of the router bit - you could lay the base out on the line.... clamp the fence ..and cut the dado's and pockets out really nicely

Just goes to show you what you can do when you don't limit yourself.

Nicely Done!

Reflow
08-31-2007, 07:19 AM
Cheers.

The lines on the print-outs work well if you just take your time. I just clamped a bit of finished pine to the line and it was all good.


You did an excellent job of cutting this by hand. I would say if you used a fence and a platform under the router to butt securely against the fence - you'd have one heck of a set up. of the platform somehow indicated both sides of the router bit - you could lay the base out on the line.... clamp the fence ..and cut the dado's and pockets out really nicely

Just goes to show you what you can do when you don't limit yourself.

Nicely Done!

Reflow
01-07-2008, 08:33 AM
Ok so it is time to resurrect this thread from the dead... I had to click down 4 pages to find it.

As it seems everybody finds, there are way too many distractions that keep you away from your CNC machine. So in the last few months; moving house and getting set up again, getting rid of an army of redback spiders (i believe you call them black-widows) in the garage, and monstrous hours at work have made things slow going, but I have made some progress.

Lately I have been able to get my machine cutting new parts for itself, using all-thread and ordinary nuts with no anti-backlash nuts. This actually turns out quite respectable parts, aside from the obvious tool chatter visible in the finish on the plastic parts. But it is certainly nice to have nice real square parts that all fit together better than I was ever able to cut by hand.

Attached are a couple of photo's of my new setup.

Reflow
01-07-2008, 09:58 AM
Some of the biggest problems I've had so far in getting this machine up and running have centered around the Z-axis and the spindle.

The worst offender has to be the budget Ozito router I purchased, though at $50au it wasn't a major outlay. From day one I have had issues with the collet sticking in this machine. I would regularly have to take my screwdriver to the lip of the collet which sticks out from the spindle and beat it out with a hammer. But I was really surprised to find out just how far out the tool was running. With a cutter in the spindle, i was able to measure that it was running 0.3mm (12thou) out of true where I ran out of shank, so I can only imagine it was approaching 0.6mm at the tip of the cutter.
So long story short, my advice is avoid the budget spindles. To my benefit, a mate of mine was lucky enough to find a variable speed Bosch die grinder, which I have been using as a significantly better replacement. The clock gauge measures less than 0.01 on the tool.

The next offender is the all-thread screw on the Z-axis. It appears that the Zinc plating on the screw is flaking and gumming up the nut as it falls vertically onto the nut in this case. I'm guessing this is a none issue on the other axis as it flakes off and falls on the workpiece/floor. I have attached a bunch of photos showing the leftover metallic powder. The white stuff is the Teflon lube I have to keep spraying on the screw to stop it causing the stepper to stall while it is cutting. The photo of the Z screw shows the darkened area which has done most of the work.

So after all this I have been working on a new and improved Z-axis using 1/2-8 2-start ACME, which I went to great lengths and expense to import from the states. I have attatched a a couple of photo's of the new and old Z-axis bearing plate.

Sadly the motor I have is unable to turn this new screw arrangement using th ACME and Dumpster nuts, so now I am waiting for USPS and Australia Post to deliver some new motors from HobbyCNC.

ClaudioG
01-08-2008, 04:43 PM
You're doing a great job their Scott, especially given you've hand cut those parts. You've definitely got more patience than me!

Cheers

Claudio

Sbthomas13
01-08-2008, 08:02 PM
Wow I'm really impressed! For you to have built that machine using only hand tools takes some skills and patience. I had the same problem on one of the earlier machines I attempted with the motors not being able to turn the leadscrew. This time I bought big 300 oz/in motors to insure that it didn't happen again.

But it looks great, I'm glad you've at least got it running, and I can't wait to see some of the pieces you cut out with it. Keep up the good work.

carsonau
01-21-2008, 02:48 AM
I too... am TRYING to build a cnc router. I have all the electronics ready (hobbycnc board and steppers)....but i can't think of a way to cut the pieces (i HAD access to a cnc router...but i had underestimated the difficulty of this project and now i dont have access anymore [ran out of time...had only cut some bearing and nut blocks]).

I AM however, moving to sydney in a few weeks :D Would anyone in sydney be able to cut joe cnc pieces for a fee? :)

FPV_GTp
01-21-2008, 04:54 PM
Hi

Reflow very nice workmanship. Keep up the good work.

For those that are scared of attempting any kind of cnc machine , whether a working model or a actual machine to peform cuts here is a link that might encourage you.

http://buildyourcnc.com/default.aspx here is a link if anyone needs a hand manually making all components.

BobF
01-21-2008, 10:20 PM
I have always thought the mods made in this thread would make building a Joes 2006 easier for someone without a CNC to cut parts. If you read through a few posts there is a link to Mikes website that has a lot of detail on how he did it. Should make this doable without access to a CNC.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31436

harryn
01-22-2008, 10:24 AM
Thanks for the links

FPV_GTp
02-03-2009, 05:29 PM
Reflow nice work


cheers