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Degrom
03-19-2007, 08:25 PM
Hi All,

I have recently started a with a welding course and I need some advice on buying a welder(Tig).

Are the Chinese Welders worth it. They are really avoidable and the specs tend to look really good.

Do any of you have some of these machines and what do you think about them?

I also see you can get a three in one machine with Plasma as an extra.Can they be used as a cheap plasma cutter for a CNC plasma cutter?

Any advice are welcome.
Thanks.
B

DSL PWR
03-19-2007, 11:07 PM
With welders it seems you get what you pay for... IF you get lucky and get a good chinese welder that dosn't need repairs it will probably be fine. The problem with the import welders is getting parts and support when needed. If you get a Lincoln or a Miller the support is great, and they are decent machines. If you want a starter machine get one of the small suit case inverter models from Lincoln or Miller, true they are a scratch start, but they give good bang for the buck (my dad just bought the Miller for stick, and really likes it). The next step up would be Miller's econotig, and for a little more omph the 185 from Lincoln (this is what I own).

The 3 in 1 is probably a scratch start tig and a touch start plasma. Touch start plasma won't work all that well for cnc.

I have yet to regret spending a little more money and getting a better tool. Even If you need to save up a little while longer, my advice is to do it and get the better tool.

Degrom
03-19-2007, 11:52 PM
With welders it seems you get what you pay for... IF you get lucky and get a good chinese welder that dosn't need repairs it will probably be fine. The problem with the import welders is getting parts and support when needed. If you get a Lincoln or a Miller the support is great, and they are decent machines. If you want a starter machine get one of the small suit case inverter models from Lincoln or Miller, true they are a scratch start, but they give good bang for the buck (my dad just bought the Miller for stick, and really likes it). The next step up would be Miller's econotig, and for a little more omph the 185 from Lincoln (this is what I own).

The 3 in 1 is probably a scratch start tig and a touch start plasma. Touch start plasma won't work all that well for cnc.

I have yet to regret spending a little more money and getting a better tool. Even If you need to save up a little while longer, my advice is to do it and get the better tool.

Thanks for your reply...

I have been doing research on the Chinese made welders and I get the feeling they are not as bad as everyone say. The welder I am looking at is a 160Amp Tig with HF start, pulse and a few extra stuff...

Here are the specs:
http://www.goodsdirect.co.nz/product_info.php?cPath=73_77&products_id=651

It's actually good that you mentioned about the plasma cutter and the touch start. I will have to ask them about that. I know the Tig part of the 3-1 machine has a HF start.

Thanks again.

sailandoar
03-20-2007, 08:46 AM
I am sure the cheap imports are getting better quickly but they are a gamble. If the company that is selling them has been around for a few years and if they will provide you with a list of parts so you know that when the a particular circuit board dies a new one is available then that could work. The trouble shooting process is another issue. I am fortunate to have three Miller inverter machines and I am very pleased. I have gotten the service manuals for the the machines from miller. I would be pleasantly VERY surprised if the imports had service manuals available.

Maxstar 140
Dynasty 200
Dynasty 300

Degrom
03-20-2007, 05:21 PM
Now thats very true. Even a very expensive welder that's not serviced properly
can welde worse than a properly serviced cheap welder.

Interesting now that you mentioned the service manual. I am not sure if the
welders I am looking at have one but I will ask the people.

But I must say I have made a really good discovery thanks to you. Most of
the really good welder making companies will have their service manuals on
line. I looked at Hobart Welders and they real put some effort into there
service manual. luckily most of the topics in the manual are related to
the welding process and not just the welder it self.

The things you don't get is the settings of how to set your amps for different
sizes material you want to weld. luckily I am busy with a Tig welding course
so I sort of know what the average setting should be.

Nice thing about the one I want to buy is that it has a 1 year warenty making
it a bit saver and they service the welders after the year if something should
go wrong.(I also made sure that all of the consumables are easy to get and
that all the fittings are up to local standards.)

I also noticed that the welder is CE approved. Does that say anything?

Thanks for every once input...
B

hammers
03-26-2007, 08:39 AM
I see you posted a link in NZ. There are a lot of junk welders sold in NZ, and european/american welders are expensive here. I am going to ship a miller tig welder from the USA, this will save about $NZ1500, and the parts are available here.

Even with a brand name welder, there can be delays in getting parts in NZ. I shudder to think what might happen when a welder goes south that does not even have a brand name, and you need service from a company that is not a welding supplies specialist.

Go through boc, weldwell, or one of the other real suppliers, at least. Ask their reps for colourful stories about chinese welding machines..

Also watch out for 3-in-1 machines. Only the very expensive ones are truly 3-in-1, the cheap ones have nice tricks like giving you 1/3 of the rated power into each.. nice.

Edit - I was told by a rep (call it marketing bs if you want, but the twitch in his eye looked authentic) that he would quit on the day they made him sell chinese welders. Also, your school should be able to get you a nice educational price on a welder. Last thing, if you will ever be using the welder for commercial purposes, register for GST and claim back the 12.5% tax.

GiantTechGuy
04-07-2008, 07:56 PM
The CT series 3-in-1 machines are quite reliable, do stay away from the ac/dc 3-in 1 machines!
The tig is HF start.

cam1
04-07-2008, 08:22 PM
You will not regret buying a made in USA welder. Miller or Lincoln both make excellent proven welders, with superb online support, and a global parts supply chain.

regards

rharter52
04-07-2008, 10:22 PM
I buy nothing from China and I hope everyone wakes up and discovers we are cutting our own throats to save a few dollars.Most of the products made in China is garbage.

hybidder
04-07-2008, 11:11 PM
If you buy a Chinese welder use the money you save to buy a really good grinder...

I don't recall seeing a post yet where anyone with any welding exerience has used a Chinese welder and had anything positive to say about the machines...

Degrom
04-08-2008, 03:17 AM
If you buy a Chinese welder use the money you save to buy a really good grinder...

I don't recall seeing a post yet where anyone with any welding exerience has used a Chinese welder and had anything positive to say about the machines...

Well its a good thing you revived this thread again!!!

People,open your eyes!!!! Nobody could tell me if the welders were good or bad so I ended up buying one.

Well to tell you the truth after buying the welder I ended up also buying a plasma cutter, Sieg C6 Lathe and 'n Sieg X2 mill... LOL (All made in China)

I have had no complaints about any of the above machines and I have been using them a lot.

I do agree the welder is not a Miller,but I can always upgrade when the welder has earned the amount needed for a better welder.

These machines are perfect for the new entrepreneur trying to enter the market. Every penny not spent on expenses is money that goes to your own pocket!!!

Every one is condemning the chines. I say give them some space...

mc-motorsports
04-08-2008, 03:30 AM
Every one is condemning the chines. I say give them some space...

No offence, but China is buying your freedom. Mine is not for sale.


I had an Italian welder, it was like $600 for an inverter type scratch start TIG and worked GREAT! Didn't last too much longer than a year, but if it means the difference of getting started or not it might be a wise investment to try to save some initial capital. If your just starting out, I would buy an import, perferably not Chinese, inverter type TIG and save money for the real deal, I.E. Miller, Lincoln. Once you own an inverter type welder, you will never go back to an old school transformer type, it's ancient technology plus inverters are a lot more power efficient. But I wouldn't buy a low end AC welder for aluminum, your going to spend atleast $2k for a good aluminum welder and there is no way around it. Good luck!

Degrom
04-08-2008, 05:49 AM
The welder I bought is an INVERTER Tig welder. HF start,rated at 200Amps DC and pulse as an extra feature. Can set the startup gas and everything. Same price as the Italian job.

Times have changed.

Why do you say China is buying your freedom?



No offence, but China is buying your freedom. Mine is not for sale.


I had an Italian welder, it was like $600 for an inverter type scratch start TIG and worked GREAT! Didn't last too much longer than a year, but if it means the difference of getting started or not it might be a wise investment to try to save some initial capital. If your just starting out, I would buy an import, perferably not Chinese, inverter type TIG and save money for the real deal, I.E. Miller, Lincoln. Once you own an inverter type welder, you will never go back to an old school transformer type, it's ancient technology plus inverters are a lot more power efficient. But I wouldn't buy a low end AC welder for aluminum, your going to spend atleast $2k for a good aluminum welder and there is no way around it. Good luck!

mc-motorsports
04-08-2008, 06:11 AM
Why do you say China is buying your freedom?

It's just something we say here in the US. I don't want to get into a huge discussion, but it was a recorded conversation between Chinese military high brass that they will dominate America by cripling our manufacturing. So and and so forth. I have read so much CRAP on the subject it makes my head spin, I just don't buy Chineese, that is all. I don't want to start that topic, but China and US manufacturing is a touchy subject with any american who works in a shop, let alone owns one.

mc-motorsports
04-08-2008, 06:15 AM
Actually, the quote being referenced was "Red China is buying your freedom" which was a popular "buy american" campain.

Degrom
04-08-2008, 06:42 AM
Actually, the quote being referenced was "Red China is buying your freedom" which was a popular "buy american" campain.

Yes... Its scary at what rate they are growing and consuming.

Yesterday we(New Zealand) signed a free trade deal with China.

We gain plenty of things out of the deal but I see no significant gain on China's side.(Makes you wonder why they would want to do it).

mc-motorsports
04-08-2008, 06:47 AM
don't shoot me, but I'm not farmiliar with New Zealands trade economy, but I'll be willing to bet you'll have a Wal-Mart on every corner next week!

Honestly, the free trade agreement that Bush made with China screwed our economy and sent a lot of jobs over-seas. If it helps your economy that's great. But in America, I think our trade agreement with China only made the incredibly rich people incredibly richer and put a lot of people out of work. Oh well, it's time to bring the Democrats back...

mc-motorsports
04-08-2008, 06:49 AM
We gain plenty of things out of the deal but I see no significant gain on China's side.(Makes you wonder why they would want to do it).


ALUMINUM! That is my guess!

hybidder
04-08-2008, 09:05 AM
Oh well, it's time to bring the Democrats back...

I always thought Bush was a democrat just not labled as such.

As for saving a few bucks in order to get into the business..... If you can't afford the right tools you can't afford to "get into the business", just stick to it as a hobby. I would be embarassed to have someone walk into my shop and see Chinese welders or plasmas or much else for that matter and a tuned in customer will know the difference as well. If I walked into a machine shop and saw Rong Fu mills and Grizzly lathes it would tell me the operator didn't know much about the quality of machines. If he scrimped on his machines he'll scrimp elswhere and I would expect my finished product from such a shop to be as subpar as his equipment and his attitude toward business.

If you can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch.

mc-motorsports
04-08-2008, 12:23 PM
If you can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch.


But if only the tools would make the machinist.... Your customers don't care what machines you used to manufacture thier parts or the parts your paying for, they don't care if you work out of a cave to a million dollor facility. They only care about QUALITY, CUSTOMER SERVICE, and PRICE and in that order.

I'm sorry, I just think that comment is ignorant. I would give someone A LOT MORE CREDIT for turning out good work on some crap equiptment and wouldn't discourage anyone from chasing thier dream.

That is all.

hybidder
04-08-2008, 01:10 PM
....and your ignorance is revealed by your belief that one can produce high quality parts in a similar manner and timeframe as a quality machine on machines that are practically fit for scrap iron as soon as the cosmoline is wiped down. (Not talking all imports, mainly Chinese)


...and "But if only the tools would make the machinist" A true "machinist" won't work with the crap you are pushing. A true machinist takes pride in his work and the means by which he accomplishes such. Can you honestly say you would be proud to own a shop full of Chinese iron? Nevermind, I can tell from your comments you already do or aspire to.

"Honestly, the free trade agreement that Bush made with China screwed our economy and sent a lot of jobs over-seas. If it helps your economy that's great. But in America, I think our trade agreement with China only made the incredibly rich people incredibly richer and put a lot of people out of work."

How could you make a statement as the one above and still advocate "chasing their dream" via Chinese iron? Sounds more than a bit hypocritical to me. I'm all for chasing dreams, but just trying to keep those dreams from becoming nightmares for some here.


Stick to your hobby and leave real machine work to the pros..

so again,

If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.... and out of the way of the professionals...

mc-motorsports
04-08-2008, 01:47 PM
Wow! That was flames. No, I wouldn't be proud of a shop full of Chineese equiptment and I don't own any Chineese equiptment. Maybe you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth or won the lottery, that's great. I just give more credit to someone who is self made and starts with little or nothing or what a median income can afford.

But that being said and I don't support or encourage chineese crap, but if that's what it takes to start, then I say do it. And yes, I started with nothing and yes, I do very well for myself.

Thank you.

Degrom
04-08-2008, 01:48 PM
LOL...

I think that is the main thing about production of goods that a lot of people don't take into consideration. Technology changes everything.

The resister used in a Miller and the resister used in a Mi-Tech is one and the same thing.(Properly both are produced in China as well)

So why should I pay more for Miller resister. Cause they provide support when it blows up?!?!

Well if the MiTech blows I can also get the replacement parts. Some of the new Chinese machines even has a 3 year warranty.

I am not saying stop buying proper machines.

I am saying China is learning from its mistakes. Its improving its products and investing in Technology as mush as it can. ITs revising problems and rectifying them as soon as they happen. All the same characteristics that made America the leading economy.

For America to stay ahead hard work is needed... (as with all things,getting to the top is hard,staying there is even harder!!!)







....and your ignorance is revealed by your belief that one can produce high quality parts in a similar manner and timeframe as a quality machine on machines that are practically fit for scrap iron as soon as the cosmoline is wiped down. (Not talking all imports, mainly Chinese)


...and "But if only the tools would make the machinist" A true "machinist" won't work with the crap you are pushing. A true machinist takes pride in his work and the means by which he accomplishes such. Can you honestly say you would be proud to own a shop full of Chinese iron? Nevermind, I can tell from your comments you already do or aspire to.

Stick to your hobby and leave real machine work to the pros..

so again,

If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.... and out of the way of the professionals...

rharter52
04-08-2008, 05:31 PM
hybidder-Well said,I couldn't agree more.I have been to china,they put on a good dog and pony show but you can see through their act.Their deliveries suck and their quality leaves alot to be desired.If you factor in shipping costs their prices are not much lower than ours are.I have been in this business for 38 years and have watched it slowly blow up.One good thing about getting old is I wont be around to see us become another third world nation.

Degrom
04-08-2008, 06:38 PM
Those companies that you mentioned are the monopolies of the indistry.(Boc imports welders from China and brand them with their logo's)

Once again the Chinese manufacturers were clever, they designed their welders to use commercially available parts. Parts like tips and welder cables that can be bought a at you your local welding shops.

I do agree 3-in-1 = 0.5 at any one job. That is why I went with the better rated DC welder. $100 but its good at what it does.

The chines manufacturing sector is also changing tactics and they are now not just making the welders but also replacement parts for them as well.Building a better infrastructure for the future.

I am not trying to sell the chines welder. I am just saying:
I have worked with those nice water cooled 3phase Millers and I have bought one of these Chines DC inverter welders and they are great for their price and what they can do.

(One tip. Don't trust sales people,politicians,governments or people that want to giving you free money :)


I see you posted a link in NZ. There are a lot of junk welders sold in NZ, and european/american welders are expensive here. I am going to ship a miller tig welder from the USA, this will save about , and the parts are available here.

Even with a brand name welder, there can be delays in getting parts in NZ. I shudder to think what might happen when a welder goes south that does not even have a brand name, and you need service from a company that is not a welding supplies specialist.

Go through boc, weldwell, or one of the other real suppliers, at least. Ask their reps for colourful stories about chinese welding machines..

Also watch out for 3-in-1 machines. Only the very expensive ones are truly 3-in-1, the cheap ones have nice tricks like giving you 1/3 of the rated power into each.. nice.

Edit - I was told by a rep (call it marketing bs if you want, but the twitch in his eye looked authentic) that he would quit on the day they made him sell chinese welders. Also, your school should be able to get you a nice educational price on a welder. Last thing, if you will ever be using the welder for commercial purposes, register for GST and claim back the 12.5% tax.

GiantTechGuy
06-10-2008, 03:41 PM
LOL...

I think that is the main thing about production of goods that a lot of people don't take into consideration. Technology changes everything.

The resister used in a Miller and the resister used in a Mi-Tech is one and the same thing.(Properly both are produced in China as well)

So why should I pay more for Miller resister. Cause they provide support when it blows up?!?!

Well if the MiTech blows I can also get the replacement parts. Some of the new Chinese machines even has a 3 year warranty.

I am not saying stop buying proper machines.

I am saying China is learning from its mistakes. Its improving its products and investing in Technology as mush as it can. ITs revising problems and rectifying them as soon as they happen. All the same characteristics that made America the leading economy.

For America to stay ahead hard work is needed... (as with all things,getting to the top is hard,staying there is even harder!!!)

GiantTech machines have a 3 year warranty.

longevitywelder
06-11-2008, 03:04 PM
Longevity Welders and Plasma Cutters are similar units you are inquiring about and Longevity has a full inventory of parts. We cover return and replacement shipping within 30days and offer a 3-year warranty.

Let me know if your have any questions,

Thanks

Palm
12-24-2008, 09:39 AM
Weve been importing china TIG machines for 2 years- we use one in our shop every day- never a problem.
For around a grand its hard to beat a QUALITY china welder that is AC-DC TIG and stick all in one machine.

Joe

Rattletrap
02-05-2009, 12:26 PM
No offence, but China is buying your freedom. Mine is not for sale.


I had an Italian welder, it was like $600 for an inverter type scratch start TIG and worked GREAT! Didn't last too much longer than a year, but if it means the difference of getting started or not it might be a wise investment to try to save some initial capital. If your just starting out, I would buy an import, perferably not Chinese, inverter type TIG and save money for the real deal, I.E. Miller, Lincoln. Once you own an inverter type welder, you will never go back to an old school transformer type, it's ancient technology plus inverters are a lot more power efficient. But I wouldn't buy a low end AC welder for aluminum, your going to spend atleast $2k for a good aluminum welder and there is no way around it. Good luck!

I too was looking at the more inexpensive welders. I too looked at the Italian welder. I read everything I could on all of them.

I spent a little extra money and got a Lincoln Invertec 205 over the chinese trash. I'm glad I did. I got the better machine because 90% of what I'm doing is aluminum and everything I studied screamed dont do an inexpensive welder.

Toysrme
03-30-2009, 05:17 AM
Make sure it is a Riland (Rhiland) welder. They are OK while most of the others are increasingly poor clones of theirs.

As long as it runs the first could of days you'll be alright. Most minor malfuctions can be repaired by yourself once you go out of warranty. The cheap HF DC tigs are alright, but you're better off saving for a real AC/DC welder.

They are very stout plasma cutters, but require changing consumables more often.

One of the main things is keeping the HF's spark gap correct. It needs to be checked every day you plan to weld it. If its not going to be moved once setup prefferably take the cover off of it and leave it unscrewed for inspecting.
You'll probably need to replace every single worm drive hose clamp with small T-bar hose clamps to be able to hold the pressure of the argon line.

cNcCharlie
06-19-2009, 06:13 PM
You folks are talking about Plasma cutters and Tig welders... but are there inexpensive Mig welders from Italy or China? 250 amp?

GiantTechGuy
06-20-2009, 10:53 AM
You folks are talking about Plasma cutters and Tig welders... but are there inexpensive Mig welders from Italy or China? 250 amp?

Yes there are and within the next few months GiantTech will be offering them.